Hello!

Congrats on your journey so far. I am a convert to the church (baptized a little over a year ago) and remember feeling exactly like you did. Being baptized into the church was the biggest (and best) decision of my life, but it was not a decision I wanted to make lightly. I have a few book suggestions and then some semi-unsolicited but hopefully helpful comments.

The God Who Weeps by Terryl and Fiona Givens — I read this one while investigating the church, and it really opened my eyes to how truly beautiful Mormon theology is. So many other religions only left more questions for me, and Mormonism was the first thing that clicked. This book brings a lot of those ideas together. Also I am obsessed with Terryl Givens, everything he writes is fantastic, which brings me to...

Wrestling the Angel also by Givens. This is definitely more of a Mormonism 303 lesson as it is quite academic. But Givens does a fantastic job explaining Mormon doctrine within the larger historical landscape of Christianity. The book is organized topically, so you can kind of skip around and read about what interests you.

Some of my favorite talks that have really spoken to me:

His Grace is Sufficient by Brad Wilcox

God is the Gardener by Hugh B. Brown

On How We Know by Truman G. Madsen

Some other suggestions:

Not sure where you live, but I highly recommend attending any local Institute classes that might be happening (your missionaries will know of them). It's a once a week class where people get together and discuss the Gospel. For me it was great to discuss things with people other than the missionaries and the member who introduced me to the church.

Don't feel like you have to know everything. This was my biggest stumbling block to deciding to be baptized. I felt like because this was such a huge decision (it was), I had to know absolutely everything I could before agreeing (impossible). One of the things I love most about the Gospel is its promise of never-ending, always increasing knowledge to anyone who will seek it. Baptism is not the destination. It is merely the gate into the kingdom of God, the beginning of a journey that has brought so much endless peace, joy, and love into my life. At a certain point I realized I could never know everything, but I knew enough to know that this path would take me to where I needed to be, that this is a life worth living.

"The rise of the Hitler movement in Germany caused a great many to fear that religious activity and missionary work would meet with disastrous opposition. Since the National Socialist party have come to power, a few sects have been prohibited or restricted, but activities in the 'Mormon' church have been carried on about the same as before. As a matter of fact, a number of interesting parallels can be seen between the church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists."

So began the fawning Deseret News op-ed dated Dec 9, 1933. That article can now be viewed here:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=x5dOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0LUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2672%2C4026967

And what were those parallels between Mormonism and Hitlerism? "Fast Sunday" and the "Word of Wisdom". American Mormons could see Mormon theology fulfilled in Hitler's government policies. Clearly, the line separating church and state was not so clear at that time in Mormon eyes.

But wait... there's more: Blood purity. Just as the Mormons of the 1930s were particularly careful that not a single drop of Negro blood gets access to the Melchizedek Priesthood, so were the Nazis very careful that not a single drop of Jewish blood gets into their veins. So the Nazis were quite pleased to know that Mormons can be extremely good at looking into German genealogy charts.

"Many of those who felt the greatest anxiety about being able to carry on their religious activities are finding that at least one branch of their church work has received its greatest boon since Germany’s adoption of Hitlerism. It was always difficult for Genealogical workers to get into the archives of the recognized church to trace back family records. When the pastor learned of the intention access to the records was often denied. Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact, some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.

All genealogical workers who are interested in tracing back family history in Germany should take advantage of the present unusual opportunity."

So did the Mormon church take advantage? I think an entire book was written to answer that question.

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680

It takes a socialist to recognize a fellow socialist. Mormonism was born out of Protestantism but nurtured with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's utopian socialist ideals. In the 1930s, these ideals were still pretty much alive. At that time, the US government under Franklin Delano Roosevelt had embarked on the most ambitious socialist expansion of government, and it had all the appearance of success. FDR and Hitler's Nazi Germany were still allies. The Mormon Church didn't see anything wrong with socialism and being friends with fellow socialists. Why would it when the whole idea was such a rousing success?

Bear Your Testimony is a Protestant thing, typical evanglical. You don't see it in Anglican or Catholic denominations basically at all, let alone under that name. When somebody is sharing their "testimony" they are sharing "their story", or "their journey", or "how god touched them", but it's never explicitly "my testimony".

The LDS church is the only place I've ever even seen F&T meetings. But it's part of my favorite things about the Church. This outward sharing of faith. Sure, F&T meetings are more "preaching to the chior" and "family story time", but it's usually considered highly inappropriate in today's society to just randomly testify.

The Sacrament for me is...not very different from the Catholic one. I very briefly believed in the real presence, but I feel that same closeness to God when I partake of the Sacrament, so I just assume it's all ordained by Heavenly Father to get us closer to Him, no matter where life takes us. [Reads further] Oh, you mean like...the how. Yeah in the Catholic Church the sacraments are Baptism, Confession, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Ordination to the Priesthood, and Anointing of the Sick. You guys have all of those, and are also all provided by priesthood members, but you guys only call "communion" "The Sacrament". Which is totally valid and fine. I could go either way on that.

Also the saint thing, pretty much exactly spot on. When we are confirmed we usually pick a "patron saint" who will pray for us in time of trouble. I guess Catholics sort of believe that Saints are semi-omnipotent? I'm not sure.

Also if it seems that I'm answering from both sides of the pew, I am. I struggle to decide LDS or Catholic. There are such strong points for both. Currently, I'm looking forward to going to an LDS service this weekend but we'll see. I made a few friends awhile back at my ward and I kind of want to see them again.


A great book if you can find it is called Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest (Amazon link) and it talks about how the two churches are similar. In my own experience, if we believe Jesus brought in his dispensation, and then the early church fell away, theoretically, the Catholic church is that Church. and everything, EVERYTHING, hinges on the fact of whether or not you believe a) that original church fell away and b) Joseph Smith restored that gospel.

Those are huge philosophical and historical questions that I am dealing with. So for now I sit, ever wavering, between a pew with kneelers and one without. I know I need to pray more, because I know Heavenly Father has that answer. I'm just not sure if I'm fully ready to commit myself to the answer. If it's "catholicism" that means never looking back to Mormonism. If it's Mormonism, then that's never going back to my childhood parish. It's a tricky decision that needs a lot of faith that I don't have yet. I need to ask. And I need to be brave enough to ask.

The Oxford Short Introductions Series has a great volume on Mormonism that covers the faith in a very even-handed and neutral manner. If you're pressed for time, this would probably be the best thing to read. The Dummies and Idiot's Guide are actually not that bad in their presentation of the faith; they're both by what would be termed "liberal Mormons" and do a pretty good job of being realistic in their presentation (though both still being very positive, of course, but they're not conversion texts).

To understand the different faiths in the Latter Day Saint movement you need to understand the history of the faith as so much of the faith claims are rooted in historical events. Books like Rough Stone Rolling and No Man Knows My History give a good overview of Joseph Smith's life. The upcoming Brigham Young biography by John Turner seems like it will also be a good source for information on Young's tenure as president of the Church as it will discuss some of the darker/stranger issues like blood atonement and Adam-God. If you want to go in depth on the history of the Temple ritual, I'd recommend Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness.

The last information I would give is that most (but not all) books published by Christian publishers should probably be avoided. Nowadays most of them are factual in their content, but their presentation is not meant to provide an understanding of the LDS Church but rather is meant to provide a multiplicity of reasons not to associate with the faith. A few exceptions I'd say are most books by Sandra and Gerald Tanner, and By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus which is an amazing overview of Joseph's "Book of Abraham" and the history and implications of the papyri Smith used in producing it which were rediscovered in 1967 to the subtle consternation of the CHurch ever since.

Autogenerated.

Discussion Megathread: Leah Remini A&E Special + AMA Announcement for Cedars and Steve Hassan!

The long-awaited special will be airing at 9PM ET/PT on Tuesday November 13th, 2018. It will air on the cable channel A&E in the US.

We'll be trying to keep this post up to date with links/details on how to watch Leah's A&E expose as we get them in, so please comment below if you know of a way to watch that isn't listed.

• Here is the Trailer/Discussion of that Trailer.
  
• Here is Who Will be on the Panel
  
  Do you want to Thank Leah? Do that here! A few Folks are organizing a Twitter Storm to thank Leah on November 14, which you can read all about here, or see u/patlynnw:
  
  ​
  
  Watch in Canada on Optik/Teleus
  
  How to Watch in the UK Sun Nov 18th, 7pm
  
  (Possibly) Watch Online, after the fact:
  
  
• The A&E Website
  
• Hulu
  
• Amazon Prime
  
• You can also try your luck with the A&E App.
  
  ​
  
  

  Special AMA Details!!
  

  
  To ease your cult expose hangover, we will also be hosting TWO Special AMAs. Please give a massive thanks to both Cedars and Steve Hassan who have reached out and accepted our AMA invitations! Here is when all that is going down:
  
  ​
  
  Cedars, AKA the inimitable Lloyd Evans- Friday November 16th, 2018. Starting 8AMEST for appx. 24 hours.
  
  Guys, it's Cedars!! Join us as we offer the chance to Q&A one of the most prominent activists in the EXJW community. Lloyd is best known as the Founder of JW Survey and the John Cedars Channel He has also recently authored a book, which is part of a greater wave that is making public the struggles of those in the EXJW community. Lloyd, if I've missed anything (as I am sure I have), let me know. :) For the rest of you, watch this space for the sticky, where you will be able to ask your quesetions!
  
  ​
  
  Steve Hassan- Monday November 19th, 2018. 9AM EST, for appx 24 Hours.
  
  Let's have a round of applause for everyone's favorite cult deprogramming expert! Steve Hassan is the founder of Freedom of Mind, and a leading figure in the movement to define how cults operate and combat their effects. His book "Combating Cult Mind Control" is a cult favorite (no pun intended) among EXJWs and will be having its 30th anniversary this week. Here is an excerpt from his website, with more information:
  
  >"Steven has helped thousands of former cult members and their families, clergy, psychologists and fellow cult experts over the years. He co-developed “Ending the Game”, a non-coercive curriculum designed to educate and empower commercial sex trafficking victims, and has spoken out about the effects, mechanisms, and signs of undue influence in its many forms on 60 Minutes, CNN, NPR, Good Morning America, The Today Show, Larry King Live, Oprah, and many other programs, as well as being featured in People Magazine, USA Today, Newsweek, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, The Guardian, and dozens of other major publications and websites."
  
  Watch "Hot" sort for the sticky next Monday where you can ask Steve whatever you'd like! You won't want to miss this chance.
  
  ​
  
  PS- Sorry we had to clump it all together. Reddit only gives us two stickys.
  
  ​
  
  
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  
  IamAbot_v01. Alpha version. Under care of /u/oppon.
  Comment 1 of 1
  Updated at 2018-11-12 08:24:51.091331
  
  Next update in approximately 20 mins at 2018-11-12 08:44:51.091368

If you haven't studied "anti-Mormon" sources, you can't claim you aren't any of those things, because that's part of it. The constant reminders to only get your information from the church. That is one of the biggest elements of indoctrination, brainwashing, and sheltering.

They're preventing you from doing thorough research and frankly, it's not our job to digest all of for you. The problems with the church are so numerous there is no way anyone is going to be able to lay them all out for you in a comment on a reddit post. Asking us to tell you why we left is not evidence you weren't indoctrinated if you refuse to go do the study yourself.

Most active members have no idea just how much information there is and that no, it is not spun. Here's a little bit of the history on why and how the real history the church is now trying to manage finally came out. There is a couple in Provo who have a Christian ministry basically dedicated to taking down the Mormon church. Around 1990 they published a pamphlet that talked about some serious stuff the vast majority of members didn't know, like Joseph's Smith polygamy. Normally the church wouldn't respond to these things, but they felt the claims were worrisome enough (getting questions from members) they needed to publish a response, so they invited two BYU historians into the archives (you know the ones in the mountain) to study ALL of the historical documents they had and write a refutation debunking the Tanner's claims.

For about two years Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel studied every document and took photos of each one, with the church's blessing. Problem was, not only did what they find back up the Tanner's claims, but the actual history was much worse (things like Polyandry). They did write a rebuttal, but it was rejected by the Q15 and they were told not to publish anything at all, ever. More than twenty years later the essays on lds.org the church finally published to at least be a little bit honest are right out of Vogel and Quinns essays. By being a little bit I mean, if you not only read the essays, but then follow the footnotes, well. It's not good. The Saints book is the same way. It doesn't out and out lie, but talk about out of context and leaving out very important information if it's too faith challenging. It's still not fully honest. Not even remotely. Shouldn't the church have to be as honest as they expect the membership?

Being historians, not publishing and keeping it all a secret didn't sit well with them and they published anyway. In fact, Dan Vogel made all those facsimiles of all those documents, thousands and thousands of them, available to any other scholar wanting to pour through them and publish their own findings. For their trouble they were excommunicated as part of the September Six (google it).

Many (maybe most on church history) of the anti-Mormon books out there directly source these documents and you can even get them yourself. Dan Vogel published all of them in several volumes called, "Early Mormon Documents." The goal was to publish all the source material he and Quinn had collected without editorial comment. I'm not sure how much more objective it can get or how any Mormon can claim the stacks of books that came out of these are not sourced or dishonest.

If you want a summary list of the major issues, and it's a long one, you should download the free pdf version of the CES letter on cesletter.org. Then read the rebuttals over on Fair Mormon. Then read the rebuttals to the rebuttals.

When I left, a nice summary didn't exist, so I had to read books and boy did I read a lot of them. I happened to start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is well sourced out of the RLDS archives, but I also read Grant Palmer's, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Incidentally, he was another BYU professor excommunicated for publishing the irrefutable truth. Keep in mind, these people were active members. They were not trying to tear down the church. They simply felt it was morally wrong to continue to have blatant and significant inaccuracies in teaching manuals, in conference talks, in Seminary, in well......everything.

My reading list (those I can remember at least):

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

Mormon America: The Power and the Promise

If you still think everything other than what is directly published by the church are anti-Mormon lies or tricks, well I can help you there at too. How deep have you gotten into Journal of Discourses? It's almost worse than anything written by an anti-Mormon. So much worse than a couple of troublesome quotes. I also re-read the D&C while reading Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith in tandem. It was a lot harder to swallow that way to say the least and both of those are obviously considered faithful study.

​

If you want to claim you aren't brainwashed or indoctrinated you have to do the work. Saying "I posted on Reddit and no one convinced me," or the other favorite, "people much smarter than me have already studied all that and say its fine," are not valid arguments. They're lazy cop outs.

​

Good luck on your search for truth. I encourage you to study it out from ALL sources, including faithful sources you haven't yet studied.

​

edited to add: Forgot one of the most important. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith

edited edited to add: If you want something a little more biased for the church you can even just read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. If you're going to read the D&C and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the same time as I did, I recommend at least reading this one first. It's going to be much clearer if you've read at least one of the biographies and Rough Stone Rolling was published by Deseret Book.

Besides Combating Cult Mind Control, Crisis of Conscious and The God Delusion (The trinity of exjw books? :D) a great book is "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne, it cleared up some misconceptions I had on evolution even after researching it. Also enjoyed the explanation on why there are some gaps in the fossil record as well, but overall it really solidified the fact that evolution has enormous irrefutable evidence backing its explanation.

"A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss, explains the big bang and the physics of empty space. There is always something rather than nothing and basically the universe had to exist with the properties it does or otherwise it couldn't. (lol I promise im not celebrating 4/20) He did not do a very good job of explaining some of the physics principles in layman's terms so reading another introductory physics book would probably be best. I read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene before and was still scratching my head a few times... but that might just be my own ineptitude.

"Beyond Religion - Ethics For A Whole World" by the Dali Lama. It was refreshing to read a book by a spiritual leader that actually gets the bigger picture. He talks about where ethics come from, why all people despite their background can be morally upright and that one does not need to be religiously inclined to lead an ethical, happy life that contributes to society. Mainly its a call for understanding and tolerance of others. I plan on sharing with my witness parents and friends to help them escape their narrow minded point of view that atheists and other non witnesses are heathens while respecting their religion... as much as I disagree.

I keep hearing A History of God brought up and Jesus Misquoted so they are next on my book list. I had started on the demon haunted world but have not finished it yet. Also, has anyone read this book yet...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

Stumbled upon it the other day and thought it looked a little wacky but might be an entertaining read comparing 1984 to witnesses.

P.S. - Here is a shameless plug for the /r/atheism reading list...

http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/atheism#RecommendedReading

Maybe we should start our own on the side bar. :)

The CES letter is really a copy/paste job. Look, I've attended the Fair Conference in Provo. This is actually kind of my "hobby". There isn't much original content in that "letter", and the topics have been discussed ad-nausea, with reasonable answers. I don't take him seriously because he does leave out facts that would counter his claims. Several times. This includes archaeological evidence that he says doesn't exist, but I have a book that has photographs of these objects.

In fact he ignores pretty much all the things Joseph got astonishingly right: The Egyptian Language and the Book of Mormon, Chiasmus, Colophones, Hebraisms and the 1500 + and growing list of Uto-Aztecan/Semitic language cognates, and the temple and Naghamaddi/Early Christian Library.

Do I have every answer to every question posed in the CES letter? No, but I don't think that I have to. The list of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon has gotten steadily smaller and smaller over the decades. Time destroys some evidence, so the list will probably never disappear, but that's ok.

I've researched many of the claims of the CES letter prior to its release. With my own money I've purchased the books containing the primary documents. I'm still a member in good standing.

So you challenged me, now I'll challenge you. Please explain this. Read 1 Nephi 1:1.

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

This is a Colophon, used by ancient scribes to give a mini autobiography before their writings. Now you should know from your elementary school Egyptian word for "good" or "beautiful is "nfr", and was pronounced "Nay-fee". Clearly all 1820 frontier schools included in their curriculum Ancient Egyptian, and how to begin your history. Also, make sure to make a pun with your name. "I, Nephi" "goodly (nfr) parents" "goodness (nfr) and the mysteries of God". One in a million coincidence? Well, maybe if we exclude the other examples of Jacob, or Enos.

So, since I read your book, please read those links. Also, never put in quotes text because you are merely putting words into other people's mouths. When I bare my testimony, I always refer to Christ. Always. In fact I only mention Joseph Smith in reference to Christ, as something like "I believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith." Don't put up straw men, it weakens your other statements.

I've found that I've really enjoyed some books that address topics that are interesting to Mormonism without being related to it at all.

Karen Armstrong (comparative religion/religious history), Bart Ehrman (biblical textual criticism), Timothy Keller (I really loved "The Reason for God"), Joseph Campbell (mythology), have all helped me gain a greater understanding of religion in general.

Other books that cover science and history have been excellent as well. I had what could be called a spiritual experience learning about the magnitude of life and how it exists when I read Carl Zimmer's "Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea". I would also suggest learning a bit about the origins of modern civilization by studying about Mesopotamia. I found a bit of interesting American history (that also briefly mentions the 19th century "burned over district" and Joseph Smith) in "Occult America: The Secret History of How Mysticism Shaped Our Nation."

My current read is "This is my Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology" by Charles R. Harrell, a BYU professor. It seems like the type of book that many Mormons would find offensive, while many Mormons would find it inspired.

I also enjoy reading scripture and seeing what it says without trying to make it fit what I think it should say, especially the New Testament. Honestly, I think that the New Testament inspires fewer wtf moments than any of the other books of scripture :)

This is a book that might help you understand the faith differences: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599552574/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We have no way of telling what this man is thinking. It is common for Mormons to seek to marry other mormons, and ones that practice the faith in similar ways. (We pretty much grow up thinking that everyone practices our faith the same way we have grown up doing so, and as we get older we learn that other just as faithful as we sometimes do things differently than we do and that is all right.)

It may be that the reason he is dating outside his faith is that he doesn't want someone who wants him to honor LDS standards. It may be because you were simply unresistable to him, despite his longtime desire to marry within the Mormon faith. It might be because he's already dated every mormon girl and doesn't want to move or wait to widen the pool of prospective partners. It might be because he wants to have sex before he gets married and that isn't going to happen if his partner isn't LDS (of course we know that you don't have to be LDS in order to choose celibacy before marriage, and even those who have chosen it don't always maintain it: I'm just articulating a possible thing he might be thinking). He might be dating you precisely because you aren't marriage material and he isn't ready to marry.

At the point that you are needing to decide whether to continue dating him, just ask him why he is dating outside his own faith. Ask him what he believes and how he wants to live his life. Ask him how you would be doing a life with you not sharing the same faith. That's the only way (maybe after several conversations, this is hard stuff and people aren't always able to be honest even when they really know themselves) you will know what is going on.

Yes you can go to church with him. Be sure to ask him to attend church with you at the same pace he wants you to go with him, if your faith is important to you.

Studies of the Book of Mormon

Elder Roberts was the LDS historian I admire the most. Leonard J. Arrington, who is commonly called the "Father of Mormon History", once remarked that Elder Roberts, who was the assistant church historian for 21 years, was “the intellectual leader of the Mormon people in the era of Mormonism’s finest intellectual attainment.”

Some more from him: “If from all that has gone before in Part 1, the view be taken that the Book of Mormon is merely of human origin… if it be assumed that he is the author of it, then it could be said there is much internal evidence in the book itself to sustain such a view. In the first place there is a certain lack of perspective in the things the book relates as history that points quite clearly to an underdeveloped mind as their origin. The narrative proceeds in characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness, as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency.”

“One other subject remains to be considered in this division… viz. – was Joseph Smith possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon from such materials as have been indicated in the proceeding chapters… That such power of imagination would have to be of a high order is conceded; that Joseph Smith possessed such a gift of mind there can be no question….In light of this evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are found in the ‘common knowledge’ of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work as Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews [published in Palmyra in 1825], it would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.”

This was an account of his meeting with other church leaders: “Richard Lyman spoke up and ask[ed] if there were things that would help our prestige and when Bro. Roberts answered no, he said then why discuss them. This attitude was too much for the historically minded Roberts…After this Bro. Roberts made a special Book of Mormon study; treated the problem systematically and historically and in a 400 type written page thesis set forth a revolutionary article on the origin of the Book of Mormon and sent it to Pres. Grant. It’s an article far too strong for the average Church member but for the intellectual group he considers it a contribution to assist in explaining Mormonism. He swings to a psychological explanation of the Book of Mormon and shows that the plates were not objective but subjective with Joseph Smith, that his exceptional imagination qualified him psychologically for the experience which he had in presenting to the world the Book of Mormon and that the plates with the Urim and Thummim were not objective. He explained certain literary difficulties in the Book….Instead of regarding it as the strongest evidence we have of Church Divinity, he regards it as the one which needs the most bolstering. His greatest claim for the divinity of the Prophet Joseph Smith lies in the Doctrine and Covenants.”

Pro-Nazi



"Dec 9,1933 - [Less than a year after Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany,] 'Church News' article 'Mormonism in The New Germany,' enthusiastically emphasizes parallels 'between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists.' First, Nazis have introduced 'Fast Sunday.' Second, 'it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. Finally, due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one's grandmother was not a Jewess, there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.'



"Jan 25,1936 - 'Church News' Section photograph of LDS basketball team in Germany giving 'Sieg Heil' salute of Nazi Party."

"Many of those who felt the greatest anxiety about being able to carry on their religious activities are finding that at least one branch of their church work has received its greatest boon since Germany’s adoption of Hitlerism. It was always difficult for Genealogical workers to get into the archives of the recognized church to trace back family records. When the pastor learned of the intention access to the records was often denied. Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact, some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism. All genealogical workers who are interesting in tracing back family history in Germany should take advantage of the present unusual opportunity." –Deseret News 1933

Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany http://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424195771&sr=8-1&keywords=Moroni+and+the+Swastika

>The copy of Crisis of Conscience that I have is a first edition hardcover. I see that there are many revisions of this work. What has changed between the first edition and the fifth edition?

I just gave a 1st edition to another redditor on here, & have a 4th edition in my possession.

And now I can't find any sort of preview of the 1st edition online...

In my copy, there are black-&-white photos in a few of the early chapters. As I recall, the 1st edition lacked those. Also, the last part of the book has a 13th chapter entitled "Perspective". Looking at the dates of his comments in that chapter, I see that many took place well past the original printing's date of 1983. So likely much of that chapter (which contains an overview, plus comments on developments within the Watchtower Society during the 1990's & into the early 2000's) focuses on developments subsequent to the 1st (2nd & 3rd) printings.

>I may have misread things (and it's certainly possible since I'm unfamiliar with both the New Testament and JW-isms), but Ray seems to write about the pre-1975 era of his time in the organization with great fondness.

I did not get that impression at all. From chapter 7 "Predictions and Presumption" [page 172] through chapter 9 "1975: 'The Appropriate Time for God to Act'," [page 253], Ray Franz dissects the origins of their multiple false prophecies and the hubris of the Watchtower Society's claims surrounding their biggest prophecy (and failure) of 1975.

The next chapter, [chapter 10] "1914 and 'This Generation'," discusses the fallout from the failed false prophecy of 1975 & subsequent structural changes within the organization.

But the only time I ever perceived Ray Franz as having any positive feelings towards anything associated with the Watchtower Society, was when he spoke of individual members who had served faithfully, and were then cast aside like trash by the very organization they'd served so long & loyally. Undoubtedly he was feeling quite a bit of that betrayal in his own situation.

I did a brief analysis of Raymond Franz' possible motivations in this thread, in case you're interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4bpk39/ray_franz_departure_from_watchtower_society/

I don't think he had much nostalgia for the earlier years of Knorr (who served under Rutherford, who was a terrible bully), or for the period of the initial Governing Body.

>What are some other books that you would recommend? I'm not really familiar with the ex-JW literary landscape.

There are dozens (if not more) books written about the JWs. I personally would recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

Haven't read this one yet, but it looks fascinating:

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Must-Wait-Witnesses/dp/1936411237

http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

That should get you started...

>4) What happened between Ray and the rest of his family? There is almost no mention of Fred Franz after the inquisition started - did they ever communicate with each other after it began or did Fred never speak to him again after they started becoming suspicious of Ray?

As I recall, "Fractured Freddie" (my nickname for that idiot) Franz never spoke to his nephew after the witch-hunt began at Bethel. Nor did ol' "Fractured Freddie" (who allegedly talked to his shoes, later in life) apparently lift a finger to help his beleaguered nephew at any point during that witch-hunt.

Good! It's impossible NOT to see parallels between the JW world and that Orwellian dystopia (there's a book you might like: The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses

I too learned to be very good at doublethink. Took me almost two years after I was free, mentally, to be free physically - because I still lived at home. My online exJW friends were instrumental in helping me get through that time. Be patient, smile and nod, and lean on us. :-)

The Cosmic Mystery of Christ is a text by st. Maximus the Confessor. In it he says a lot against the idea that we once were in perfect onion with God before the Fall.

This is one of the primary theological problems with theology drawing too much on neoplstonism, as this type of New Age thought does.

If we existed in perfect union with God before the Fall, then God is not the summa bonum that all creation has a natural will pulling and enticing it into communion with God as it's theological and eschatological end. Instead the satisfaction that God brings is ultimately as unsatisfying and fickle as the world.

Also the notion of monism is a neoplatonist idea that contradicts Christian thought and is from the Neoplatonist monad. We believe God is both distinct from and personal with creation.

The early Church Fathers taught that God became man so man could become God and that by grace we become everything Christ is by nature; so we so we do teach what is called deification (theosis) of the mind, but importantly also the body and all of the cosmos. Not just the mind, nor does it become a monist model nor was this the original state for reasons listed above.

The notion that it's just the mind and not the body as well is another neoplatonist view that disagrees with Christanity. In part, this is why Orthodox will pray standing up, bowing, kissing things, lighting candles. It's all ways for the liturgical worship to teach and to structure the proper practice of treating prayer as both a spiritual/noetic/intellect thing and a material physical thing involving your body and what is materially beyond your body.

Humans aren't spiritual beings. Humans are human beings and we are both spiritual and material.

My wife is still active and never had any interest in reading any of my "anti" books. But I did get her to read Suddenly Strangers by Brad and Chris Morin. She was interested in it because it's about relationships, and what it felt like to lose belief in the church and have to deal with the fallout from believing family and friends.

Though it's not the main focus of the book, they do go into some detail about the doctrinal and historical issues that led to their disaffection, so it's a good way to introduce some of these issues in a non-threatening way.

Another tack might be to ask her to read something from an apologetic perspective that nevertheless goes into all the details. The great service that apologists provide is that they substantiate a lot of claims that members often assume to be anti-Mormon lies. One of my favorite examples is this paper from FAIR. It basically says, "why yes, Joseph Smith did in fact marry women who were already married to other men, now let me explain why that shouldn't bother anyone..." To me, the apologetic spin is weak sauce compared to the acknowledgement that the anti-Mormon claim is rooted in fact.

A good book in this vein might be Michael Ash's Shaken Faith Syndrome. It's a pretty good introduction to the whole LDS apologist scene, and most people who venture into those waters don't come away very impressed.

Some good suggestions in this thread.

I think I'd start with the Gospel Topic essay "Race and the Priesthood." It's not focused on Joseph Smith, but it's short and a good broad overview of race and the church.

I ditto the suggestion of Paul Reeve's new book Religion of a Different Color. I'd read the chapters on blacks (I think there's only 3 of them, if I remember right?) and look up the sources used in the footnotes.

I'd also grab Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling and look through the index and see what he had to say about the topic. I'd take careful look at the footnotes in the most relevant passages and look up those sources too.

For primary sources, you're going to have to do a bit of digging (but digging is fun!)

Here is a copy of Jane Manning James's autobiography at the Church History Library that she dictated in 1902 (MS 4425). She talks about meeting Joseph Smith on the third page. She was a free black woman who lived with Joseph and worked in his household (and as I recall, she was one of the first pioneers who came to Utah too). First-person reminiscent accounts are wonderful because you get a perspective that isn't available anywhere else, but you have to be cautious too, because it's someone looking backwards and their view is colored by everything that has happened since that time. In this account James is an old woman recollecting things that happened nearly 60 years earlier.

Josephsmithpapers.org is another good spot to start. You'll have to be creative in using the search box, however, because the site won't give you results on terms like "African-American," because that's a modern term. You'll have to think of terminology that would've been contemporary to Joseph Smith's time like "slave" or "Negro." Joseph never gave a long, definitive statement on the topic. What we do have are largely snippets and incidental comments that when grouped together will give you some idea of his thoughts on the matter.

I think modern readers researching this topic need to keep 3 thoughts in mind:

1. Abolitionists in Joseph's time were considered radicals. Joseph lived 20-30 years before the Civil War. (For some perspective, think of a hot-button social topic today and then think what the talking heads on the news were saying about that same topic 30 years ago.) To really simplify a topic that has had entire books devoted to it, the moderate view on slavery at the time was to maintain the status quo.
   
   
2. Joseph's views changed over time. His statements in 1836-38 when the church is dealing with pro-slavery neighbors in Missouri are going to be different than his statements in 1843 when he decides to run for president. Additionally, all of us, whether we realize it or not, say different things to different people in different contexts, and Joseph was no different. Something said in private may be phrased more emphatically than something meant to be published in the newspaper. Similarly, something said over the pulpit in Nauvoo may be framed differently than a political piece sent to a major newspaper in the eastern states.
   
   
3. Additionally, Joseph rarely wrote things himself--he preferred to dictate and he had no problem in allowing his clerks editorial privilege (this was typical for a guy in his position). Some things were ghostwritten with Joseph's approval. So, a good rule of thumb when encountering a primary document is to thoroughly answer the question, who wrote this item and why did they write it?
   
   Here are a few items to get you started:
   
   

• an 1836 letter to the editor of the Church paper on abolitionism, slavery, and missionary work in the southern states written after an abolitionist gave a public lecture in Kirtland
  
  
• a brief 1842 piece opposing slavery published in the Church paper
  
  
• an answer to Orson Hyde's question on "the situation of the Negro?" given in January 1843
  
  And it'd be worth looking up material on Joseph's political platform when he ran for president too. He had the really interesting idea of compensated emancipation. Basically, the idea was to sell government land in the west and use the proceeds to buy freedom of existing slaves. Theoretically, no more slavery and everyone's happy. I'm not sure I've heard of another candidate suggesting it quite as early as Joseph did.
  
  edit: spelling and formatting

Thanks for mentioning us pre-internet pioneers of exmo-ness.

I left in late 1995. Made the mistake of reading Richard S. Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History"

I felt so guilty for reading that book. But, I just couldn't put it down. It was the first time I felt like someone was giving me a real picture of Joseph Smith the man, not the myth. Decided I needed to balance out what I was getting in Van Wagoner's book with something more "church approved." Went to Deseret Book. Asked the girl working if they had anything on polygamy. She said she thought they had one book- they did. It was the book I was already reading.

That was the moment I took the red pill. There was no turning back and the floodgates were opened. I then read:

• No Man Knows My History
  
• Quest For The Gold Plates
  
• By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus
  
• Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders
  
• Secret Ceremonies
  
• Where Does It Say That?
  
  And then I started checking out copies of Sunstone and Dialogue.
  
  I started checking out some of the articles at Utah Lighthouse Ministries and made one trip to their book store, but I was already becoming an atheist and I didn't really like how they weren't just trying to debunk Mormonism but also trying to sell born again xianity.
  
  By November of 1996 I was already attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation and also pretty much an athiest at that point.
  
  When stuff like MormonThink came along, I was already pretty much post-Mormon. And, when I discovered r/exmormon, I was suddenly surprised at how much I liked watching what was happening here.
  
  I'm always surprised at the announcements people make about being done with this place. But, then I found it when I was already over all the emotional rage at having been deceived. I think I just like watching the train wreck at this point. People's posts here really give me the sense that Mormonism is imploding at a rate faster than this stodgy institution is prepared to deal with- makes me happy.

I struggle with this as well. I find that, in general, most people I encounter do not feel the need to think about things as much as I do. I can't help it. I just think about everything all the time and it doesn't ever stop.
For the logic of a lot of thing, I really recommend this book . It helps me understand so many specific issues better, and has an incredible set up to help strengthen faith in general. I found one of my favorite quotes in this book. I believe it was Joseph F Smith who said it, and I don't know it verbatim so forgive me for paraphrasing: it doesn't matter if you don't understand, agree with, or believe every single thing taught in the church. Anyone who relates to our core values & beliefs (Jesus Christ, the Savior, the Book of Mormon being the word of God, etc) is welcome.
That quote kept me from leaving the church at a time where there was much I didn't understand.

Letters to a Young Mormon by Adam Miller. This books is a series of letters on gospel topics. It really makes you think about topics that we sometimes gloss over, and I feel like it's helped me be a more deliberate disciple.

First Principles and Ordinances by Samuel Brown. This book is next on my reading list, but everything I've read from this guy has been excellent. I recently saw someone recommend this book for prospective missionaries.

Wrestling the Angel by Terryl Givens. This book is a great history and explanation of Mormon doctrine and compares our beliefs to historical and modern mainstream Christian beliefs. I would highly recommend this one for future missionaries

The doctrine is not straightforward. There are several explanations, including Adam-God to which you referred and Jehovah-Jesus. The Book of Mormon teaches both modalism and trinitarianism. Mormons could also be thought of as somewhat Arianist. My favorite vision is of heaven as sci-fi Mormon Valhalla, derivable from the King Follett Discourse. And don't forget to include Heavenly Mother, or Mothers if you're double-true blue.

If you want a quick answer to what Mormons believe God to be, you won't find one. But if you're interested in meditating on this more fully, check out the section on The Divine in Terryl Givens' recent book.

Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction by Richard Bushman. Part of a series by Oxford University Press that tries to concisely summarize a variety of complex topics.

For something more in depth, but hitting all the bases you described quite well, I highly recommend the The Oxford Handbook of Mormonism. Seriously if you read that, you will come away with a very in depth understating of Mormon history, theology, culture, practice, and experience. But it is very long.

Oxford has also published a great book on the development of LDS theology called Wrestling the Angel.

Matthew Bowman's The Mormon People is also very good and has been used as a textbook in university religious studies introduction to Mormonism courses.

There's an excellent episode from the podcast "LDS Perspectives Podcast" that invites prominent LDS scholar and author, Robert Millet, to speak on this exact issue:

> I wouldn’t press young people or older people for that matter to insist we’re Christians just like they are, because I think that wouldn’t be true. It’s not true.

>How we define ourselves. A religious group ought to have the right of self-definition if anything, and [Mormons] haven’t generally been given that right.

It's popular in an evangelical-LDS dialog to have the principle of “let us define for you what you believe.” Mormons do the same thing. We have in our heads, “You believe this. You believe this.”

The LDS Church has a published essay on the issue of "Are Mormon's Christian?"

Finally, as a source and study of Mormon thought in the context of Christian Theology as it evolved over the centuries I would recommend, "Wrestling an Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity", by Terrly Givens.

• King Benjamin's Speech (661 pgs): great connections to ancient Israelite festivals. And great speech. now free online
  
• Mormon's Codex (826 pgs): Sorenson's magnum opus. Very methodical. Doesn't stretch his sources.
  
• The Book of Mormon text reformatted according to parallelistic patterns: the patterns add light to the text in significant ways. I think Poetic Parallelisms in the Book of Mormon is the "next edition".

I am so sorry that this is happening to you. You are right to be concerned - this could very easily tear your family apart. I have seen it happen firsthand when someone in my family was recruited into the Dubs then became totally alienated from her non-Dub husband. You could very easily end up in a situation where both your wife and your child are brainwashed into thinking you are a bad influence and that only other Dubs are worth spending time with. You definitely do not want to be complacent about this. The JWs are not "just another religion". It is a very dangerous and nasty cult.

My advice would be to immediately start "studying" the JWs yourself - but NOT with their own material. JWs don't know their own history very well at all, but you can find a lot of eye opening stuff using outside materials like http://www.jwfacts.com

Here are the three books that I would strongly recommend you purchase and start reading right away:

The Reluctant Apostate: Leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses (a very long and well-researched explanation of the JWs - if you can only read one of these books, I would make it this one)

Combating Cult Mind Control (not focused on just the JWs, but a general book about how cults operate and how to try to work with someone to get them out)

Crisis of Conscience (an older book written by one of the "Governing Body" members that ended up leaving the religion)

If you read those books, you will learn a LOT about how the JWs operate and have ample proof that this is not a legitimate religion. However, you can't confront her directly with this info. She has been programmed by the cult to reject any direct attack on the religion.
However, as you read them, you will probably think of some questions that you'll have for your wife about the Dubs. Start asking her questions NOT in an aggressive way but just in a "curious" sort of way. For example, "What do you make of [this thing]? What is the JW explanation for that?"

When people are being brainwashed, you can't confront them directly about it. That just makes them dig their heels in. You have to slowly dismantle the belief system by asking them questions and forcing them to realize for themselves that the cult doesn't have a good answer for it.

I also recommend trying your best to find excuses to spend time away from home on meeting days to keep her away from the dubs as much as possible. Time spent away from the indoctrination sessions can often help people realize on their own that it is bullshit.

Thanks for the ping /u/vh65!

Hello /u/mckennahyoung! I'm Gileriodekel. I help run /r/LDSINC, which is the subreddit dedicated to the church's financial information. I run it with /u/hiking1950 (who honestly does more than I do now-a-days).

Another good resource would be /u/Mithryn's blog post "Structure of the Corporation of The President / Bishopric (Actual LDS “Church”)". He lists all the businesses that the church owns. /u/Mithryn himself is also a fantastic resource.

In regards to the mall, I made this spreadsheet. It is a year-by-year comparison of the church's humanitarian aid to the mall they built. I searched through thousands of archived documents to find all official financial information and humanitarian aid factsheets, most of which the church has tried to throw down "the memory hole".

 

Anyway, if you have ANY questions, please message me or /u/hiking1950 directly. We love talking and researching this kinda stuff. I actually used to help run /r/exmotalks (which is more-or-less dead), and I'd even help you write your paper if you'd like.

&nsbp;

EDIT: I forgot to mention, professional Mormon historian and former BYU history professor D. Michael Quinn is releasing a book called "The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power". The release date has been pushed back more than a couple times, but if it releases in time it will be an invaluable resource.

Go read "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology" by Charles R. Harrell. It is the best topical summary of the evolution of LDS doctrine available, written by a believing but uncorrelated BYU Engineering professor.

If you're interested in the changing claims about God that developed in Joseph's lifetime, I wrote a few blog posts documenting my findings and resources:

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part I

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part II

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part III

>certain claims by prophets that it is the most correct of any book.

That's J.S. claiming it's the most true on principle, not like, the most historically / scientifically accurate. "“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)"

The archeology and geological aspects are pretty disappointing. Mormon's Codex by Sorenson is encouraging, but I mean, he claimed to have gold plates given him by an angel that the angel took back. There's only so much you can do with that.

Academic studies in general as well as work on the text is much better.

Oxford press (I recommend both these authors):
http://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928/
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705/

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/ (including http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/periodicals/jbms/ )

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/

http://www.gregkoffordbooks.com

BYU's philosophy department professors

I do not recommend FAIR.

That should be a good start : )

I'm not well equipped to provide many accessible sources on this, But the church's history in Utah is rife with blackmail and using prostitution etc.... as a means to this end. Smith seems to have done it, As did Young and his predecessors.

Right now I can only offer one credible online source as well as a few books, I've never really kept sources on this issue. EmmaHS, curious_mormon, AnotherClosetAtheist or Mythryn are typically better at providing sources, I'm just a local idiot. You can try bothering them to get something more useful, Mythryn keeps some information on his website, but it's not easy to search.

Here is a link to a Report by C. S. Varian, who was Assistant US Attorney in Utah territory during the 1880

The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, has information that falls into this area. It's also a very good book for looking at the reality of the LDS leadership and their skeleton filled closets.

Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847-1918 by Jeffrey D. Nichols is another useful read.

That's the best I can do right now, I can't locate better/more available sources. But the Mods/power users I named above have also done posts and stuff about it in the past.

I was coming to say this exact thing! I'm about 1/3 into it and it's SO fascinating. I live in SLC, so I went to his author event when the book came out at Wellers Book Works. He had a lot of pictures and things on display, gave a great talk, and there was some really great Q&A and discussion. It's by David Conley Nelson.

Though you didn't ask for this, if you want a brief account of Mormonism I would suggest Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction by Richard Bushman. The book is very good, and though there are many good books to suggest, if you didn't have a lot of time to read a ton of stuff I would read this.

And of course, I would encourage you to read the Book of Mormon as well. Where to start? To be honest from the beginning. The book is largely a chronological story and so I would start on page one.

Joseph made edits to the manuscript while it was at the printer. And from the time Joseph received the plates (1827) to the time the manuscript was completed (late 1829) was more than two years. That's plenty of time for Joseph to have the story completely laid out in his head. Read an original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and you'll see how different it is from today's version. And I'm not talking about punctuation, chapter headings, or verse separations.

Stephen King wrote Running Man in a week. Brilliant and creative people can write stories in a flash. BH Roberts, a former General Authority in the 1920's and 1930's, did a study on the Book of Mormon and Joseph's history. He concluded that Joseph had the necessary faculties and intellect to produce the Book of Mormon on his own. Read this.

The Book of Mormon is nothing more than Bible fan fiction.

The usual recommended reading is Ray Franz' Crisis of Conscious. Ray Franz was a member of the Governing Body (JW's Corporate overlords) who basically defected and was "disfellowshipped" (excommunicated). You might have trouble finding it in bookstores though, since the copyright holders are refusing to publish for one reason or another [insert conspiracy theory here]. It can be found in PDF form online though.

Available on Amazon is The Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans. He also runs a very informative and even handed (IMHO) YouTube channel under the name "John Cedars".

Lloyd's book was a very emotional read for me because a lot of the stuff that happened to him happened to me. Not everyone is can escape a cult, and those that do have irreversible damage done to their personality and psyche. Everyday is a struggle for me, but knowing that there are other exJW's make the pain bearable.

Knowing that exJW's and exMormon's have so many similarities give me even greater strength to keep going on. Thank you for existing and I hope that we all find our happiness.

side note: Tapirs, amirte? lol

edit: forgot a link

I never managed to get into the second book, but I think you've inspired me to do so. Read CoC, am in the middle of The Reluctant Apostate at the moment (can be found here: http://amzn.to/2rd25ye ) ... but I will give 'In Search of Christian Freedom' a read very soon.

Thank you.

Brigham H. Roberts was considered the best church historian of his age, (early 1900's). A brilliant man, faithful member of the church, and author of "The Comprehensive History of the Church". In my mind nobody knew the history of the church better.

He also authored a volume called. "Studies of the Book of Mormon" which was published after his death by 'Signature Books'. I think it is the most damning evidence for the book of mormon fraud that I have read.

"Studies" is available on-line for your personal library, or do what I did and just borrow it from the Local Library. A fascinating read, thoroughly footnoted and documented in the style of one of the worlds great historians.

According to D. Michael Quinn in his book, Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power, he estimates that that church members payed $33 billion (with a "B") in tithing donations in 2010.

I did some back of the envelope math a few weeks ago, based on estimated activity rates in the United States, family size, and median income, and came up with just over $3 billion in tithing donations. If the United States is home to 41% of the global Mormon population, and if D. Michael Quinn is right in his guess, then I seriously underestimated my assumptions at about $7 billion in donations.

What's interesting though, is that the church is more wealthy as a corporation than a religion. They have investments in agriculture, real estate, properties, farming, stocks, and much more. Some estimate that the church is worth more than $100 billion, and if so, tithing is making up anywhere from 20-35% of its total revenue.

But the church is bleeding members, and to lose 1/3 of your income would be a serious financial setback for the church. With that in mind, it perfectly clear why the church leadership is spending so much time focusing on "stay in the boat", and other related topics.

But I prophesy that in 100 years, the "Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" won't be a religion any longer, at least not as we know it, but instead will be a literal non-profit, tax exempt, run of the mill charity. It'll be more akin to the Salvation Army than Protestantism.

That's interesting that you've heard that because the way I understood the 144 000 was that they were selected arbitrarily by God. If you were in a Kingdom Hall and there was someone who was particularly kind and saintly, everyone in the congregation would start to think that they were one of the elect. As one of the elect, they get respect, special privilege, and they are the only ones who can take communion (everyone else just passes the bread and grape juice because they aren't elect and, therefore, cannot partake in the sacrament).

Granted, I don't know what your source is, but I got this from a memoir by an ex-JW called I'm Perfect, You're Doomed. I don't know how libelous it may or may not be as the author is very, very bitter about her upbringing but the insider knowledge of a tradition is better than any armchair sources.

It depends on which brand of Mormon belief you are dealing with. The FairMormon crowd believes in the Mesoamerican model of the Book of Mormon. Books like "Mormon's Codex" by John L. Sorenson would find these Mayan ruins encouraging.

But there are plenty of people that believe the "Heartland" model and they will smugly think that this Mayan discovery is irrelevant at best. The Book of Mormon took place in 'Murica because it's the Promised Land.

Officially, the LDS church does not proclaim where the Book of Mormon took place. Despite their claims of being prophets, seers, and revelators, they make very few material claims about their premier book of scripture.

Ah, I see. I think I was misunderstanding you. I certainly agree that because Christ is incarnate, whole and undivided and one with the Father, the Church ought to be one as well (see, for example, John 17:20-24). And the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics would agree, too. The question is whether that "one" Church is the Eastern Orthodox Church, and this is where the Eastern Orthodox material I've come across (mostly blogs, but also in books and in conversation) turn to the other kinds of claims I was mentioning.

So yes, the incarnation is very important to Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology (and to Roman Catholic and most Anglican ecclesiology), but it's when distinguishing between the different ecclesiologies that we have to turn elsewhere, if that makes sense.

Some resources can be found here: Introducing Eastern Orthodoxy
and here. Notice especially in the article I linked to that he discusses the Church's Incarnational significance but also discusses bishops, historical continuity, etc.

Read Suprised by Christ: My Journey From Judaism to Orthodox Christianity, by Father James Bernstein, an Orthodox Christian priest, formerly Orthodox Jew.

Filioque is the tip of the iceberg. There are profound and fundamental differences in how Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics understand the nature of grace, free will, and the nature of man and God. External similarities are vestiges of an ancient shared past. I was raised a devout Roman Catholic and schooled by Benedictine monks. I became Orthodox seven years ago. I can assure you there is an enormous difference, despite what you might have heard or read to the contrary.

Don't try to work things out on your own. Go speak to a priest at the Orthodox Church of St. Gabriel in Nazareth. I have been there. It is a small parish and isn't overwhelmed by tourists.

The book you are most likely to receive is going to be Shaken Faith Syndrome, which is a purely ideological, victim-blaming and gaslighting obscurantist trash-heap which is not written for skeptics who have done actual in-depth research, but rather, as on faithful TBM reviewer puts it, "Lastly, it should be noted that this book is targeted at the lay member and is not intended as a scholarly thesis of all issues relating to an 'intellectual' apostasy".

However, if your bishop is more sophisticated or nuanced NOMish in his approach it might instead be The Crucible of Doubt by Fiona and Terryl Givens.

I like this approach. I may consider this.

What I've found is this, at the beginning of my apostasy, it caused a big cognitive dissonance for both myself and my wife. It was all we could talk about, it threatened us both. I decided the church wasn't for me and shared my concerns and findings with my wife. She listened but didn't really investigate objectively, she'd read what the church and apologists had to say about the issues and read this piece of garbage that her mom sent her but wouldn't lend any credence to any 'anti-Mormons'. That God awful book seemed to calm her and she dug in her heels further and doubled down. We started seeing a marriage counselor and are to the point that we both love each other and are both ok with where the other is spiritually.

My question is this, when (if ever) should I bring the issues back to the surface again?

My initial thoughts:

• [No Man Knows My History] (https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502508499&sr=8-1&keywords=no+man+knows+my+history), by Fawn M. Brodie
  
  
• [An Insider's View of Mormon Origins] (https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508636&sr=1-1&keywords=an+insider%27s+view+of+mormon+origins), by Grant Palmer
  
  
• [Mormon Polygamy: a history] (https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Polygamy-Richard-Van-Wagoner/dp/0941214796/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508741&sr=1-1&keywords=mormon+polygamy), by Richard S. Von Wagoner
  
  
• [The Mountain Meadows Massacre] (https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Meadows-Massacre-Juanita-Brooks/dp/0806123184/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508843&sr=1-1&keywords=mountain+meadows+massacre+juanita+brooks), by Juanita Brooks
  
  
• [A Gathering of Saints] (https://www.amazon.com/Gathering-Saints-Story-Murder-Deceit/dp/0671651129/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508882&sr=1-1&keywords=a+gathering+of+saints), by Robert Lindsey
  
  See if any of those pique your interest. I found them all to be fair, with little bias. Happy studying!

Somewhat unrelated, but have you read Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology"? It's written by a believing (but nuanced) professor at BYU and reviews the historical developments of mormon doctrine from OT to NT to BOM and early church to modern church. It's pretty fascinating.

Happy to help. Here are some links I'd recommend.

https://www.amazon.com/Experience-God-Orthodox-Dogmatic-Deification/dp/1885652410/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=dumitru+staniloae&qid=1564128511&s=gateway&sprefix=dumtru&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Mystery-Jesus-Christ/dp/088141249X/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=st+maximus&qid=1564128542&s=gateway&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/Origen-Alexandria-St-Maximus-Confessor/dp/1581122616/ref=mp_s_a_1_34?keywords=st+maximus&qid=1564128599&s=gateway&sr=8-34

Also I can't reccomend this poetry enough

https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Eros-Theologian-Popular-Patristics/dp/0881413496/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=symeon+the+new+theologian&qid=1564128667&s=gateway&sprefix=syme&sr=8-2

Light From the Christian East by James R. Payton - written by a non-Orthodox scholar who is sensitive to accurately describing Orthodox theology while making them accessible to non-Orthodox.

The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware - not to be confused with his older classic, The Orthodox Church, which describes the historical development of the tradition. This work is more personal because of its focus on how Orthodox theology applies to the life of a Christian. Ware is an Orthodox bishop who has been famous for decades for his attempts to introduce Eastern Christianity to a popular audience.

Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology by Andrew Louth - Louth is a gifted Russian Orthodox scholar and priest who writes ably on a number of topics.

The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky - Lossky is one of the most influential Russian Orthodox theologians of the 20th century. This book is a classic introduction published in the 50s, and also advocates for a certain understanding of Orthodoxy that emphasizes its distinctiveness (the "mystical" part) from Western theology.

Yes, I actually just recently came across this because it's always been a question of mine how they determined who sat where in the temple. I noticed that it's not a left/right thing, and I never could figure it out. Then I read that Brigham Young instituted the policy of separating the genders in sacrament meeting where the women sat on the NORTH side of the chapel. I thought back to it, and for the few temples I can place a compass direction on, the women in the temple sit on the north.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else can confirm the north/south orientation in the temple they're familiar with.

But yes, Brigham Young did it because....well... Brigham Young.

Edited to add source:
2 Jan, 1859 - Brigham Young begins custom of having all Mormon congregations sit with women on north side of center aisle, men on south side, and children on front benches. This seating arrangement lasts for decades, remains in temples to this day.

Abc interesting video by a Jewish convert it Orthodoxy. His book, surprised by Christ, is excellent as well.

[Jewish Roots Of Orthodox Worship] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7nd8vC9qdPQ).

[Surprised by Christ] (https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950).

Divine Liturgy in Orthodoxy is going to closer resemble Jewish temple services (I don't know much about Judaism myself).

Here's an Orthodox book: https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950/

Here's a Catholic book: https://www.amazon.com/Crucified-Rabbi-Judaism-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X/

Hope this random comment helps!

• The Orthodox Faith, by Fr. Thomas Hopko, is online and free.
  
  
• The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, are a pair of very good introductory books.
  
  
• Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology by Fr. Andrew Louth, is another good theological introduction.

James Penton has written a couple of excellent books:

https://www.amazon.ca/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Third-Reich-Persecution/dp/0802089275

https://www.amazon.ca/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

And for Orwellian fans, Gary and Heather Botting's book is a classic:

https://www.amazon.ca/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

Botting also has some great research published about the WTs legal history. Check his website for more.

Edit to add: all of the above books should be available for borrow through the public library system

All three of your professors points are rubbish. If language had evolved as much as he it said it did then Egyptologists wouldn't be able to interpret the countless artifacts from the same period. Is he really saying that the BOA is the only artifact that is different than all the others? Look up the Book of Abraham on Mormon Think. But for an excellent book, and one that answers each of your professors assertions then this one is in my opinion one of the best. Even though it is from the 90's it still holds up today.

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539867049&sr=8-1&keywords=By+His+Own+Hand+Upon+Papyrus

There are many books like this that aren't even fiction. Most notably the one I've linked to below.

I am part of a whole group of people who are living what eddie is experiencing with his family.There's a subreddit for people like us. It's called r/exmormon.

The mormons are more normal in some ways and more strange in others when you compare them to meyerists. But watching this show and how eddie's departure has impacted the family dynamics is absolutely chilling with how similar it is.

When eddie asked "you don't really believe that" and sarah said "you don't even know me" or something I had such a physical reaction. because I know someone whose ex-wife said the exact same thing to him when he decided he was leaving the mormon church.


https://www.amazon.com/Escape-Carolyn-Jessop/dp/0767927575/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1491416889&sr=1-1&keywords=escape

Edited to Add: one of the best books I've ever read on the FLDS cult.

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Wives-Hidden-Mormon-Polygamy/dp/1593764081/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1491417309&sr=1-1&keywords=Secrets+and+Wives

BYU Anthropologist John L. Sorenson is probably the most prominent current advocate of this view. He is a respected scholar and was called a "fantastically good linguist" by Michael Coe on the Mormon Stories Podcast in which Coe was specifically there to debunk Book of Mormon based Archeological research.

His recently published book, Mormon's Codex is supposed to contain his best and most complete argument for the Mesoamerican setting of the Book of Mormon. He claims to have identified 420 correspondences between the archaeological record for Mesoamerica and the text of the Book of Mormon.

Some of his arguments can be found here.

----------------------------------------------------------------

edit: Hey, to everyone who wants to debate me about the specifics of Sorenson's arguments and motivations. I don't know enough about it, sorry. I never intended to claim that I did. I thought this was an honest question ("what evidence is there..."). I knew Sorenson's theories existed (mostly because I heard about him on Mormon Stories), so I pointed out the source, thinking OP was interested in learning what arguments were out there. I didn't realize OP, and others later, were looking for someone to argue with. I'm simply not qualified to satisfy you guys. Sorry.

No, I know that, I mean didn't most of the FLDS crew move to the YFZ ranch in Eldorado...

But I was thinking specifically of the Jessops. Looked it up because I was curious. And the raid was in 2008.

Edit: That Krakauer book is really good... heart breaking at parts. Escape by Carolyn Jessop is also really really good.

Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology is a readable introduction based on a lecture series.

Light from the Christian East was written by someone in the Reformed tradition who nevertheless does a pretty good presentation of Orthodoxy.

Orthodox Christianity (3 vol.) is probably the most comprehensive overview by a contemporary Orthodox theologian and churchman.

This book is good, written by an LDS member. D Michael Quinn is another excellent historian on this and other subjects.

Whether you agree with it or not, Prop 8 is a good watch, and would not require the investment of time that a book would.

I've read A View of the Hebrews. I recommend reading B.H. Roberts' Studies of the Book of Mormon first as a primer. There are significant historical knowledge gaps between the time View was published and our own and I found Roberts' work helpful in bridging those gaps. Roberts set out to answer a few simple historical questions about the BoM that a member had written in to a GA...

Reading View will get you:

• a firsthand read at what was probably the source of a lot of major thematic points of the Book of Mormon, rebutting FAIRs claims of no connection; and,
  
  
• firsthand read of numerous and very specific pseudoscientific linguistic and cultural theories that were considered credible at the time the BoM was written, which have since been discredited, and which were incorporated into the BoM by the author(s) of that work.
  
  Reading Roberts work provides:
  
  
• firsthand knowledge that when FAIR characterizes Roberts' work as a piece of "devils advocacy" they are lying;
  
  
• a well-articulated summary of early concerns with BoM anachronisms (linguistic, anthropological, metalurgical, and agricultural/animal husbandry);
  
  
• strong evidence to the theory that Joseph Smith incorporated material from his life/social milieu into the Book of Mormon;
  
  
• examples of overt and thinly disguised plagarism from the Bible;
  
  
• analysis of simplistic and superficial stories/teachings of the BoM;
  
  
• Roberts' retelling of how his findings went over with the 12 and FP when he shared them with that body; and,
  
  
• all of this written from a perspective of faith from a President of the 70 who died in full fellowship, was church historian, who literally wrote The History of the Church and was formerly a strident defender of the Book of Mormon.
  
  Your husband might read Roberts work with you or on his own, given that he probably has a copy of Roberts six volume History of the Church and doesn't consider that anti-Mormon (in fact it's quoted extensively in official church publications.)
  
  Best of luck.

By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson

Quick read, great full color foldout photos of the papyri (best available anywhere, I believe).

No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

You can go to the Marriott library Special Collections dept on the 4th floor...just ask them about the BH Roberts stuff, they will be glad to bring you tons of stuff...that I am sure that the church doesn't like people to know about. You can also buy his writings now. The book is called Studies of the Book of Mormon...here is the amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560850272/qid=1091914132/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3960798-7723963?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

For number 5:

As another Catholic who's been investigating the LDS faith on and off, I found this book to be really enlightening.

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-roots-Mormon-Harvest-Shuster/dp/1599552574/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1485848520&sr=8-2&keywords=eric+shuster

It's by another Catholic convert and he breaks down the similarities and differences between Catholicism and the LDS faith.  I became much less skeptical of Joseph Smith after reading this book, as I can't believe that a simple man from a farming family in upstate New York could have possessed the knowledge to write the Book of Mormon and have it be so scripturally inline with thousands of years of Christian tradition. 

I mean, what's your bar for acceptable sources? There's a long history of scholarship surrounding early Mormon history. You shouldn't feel bad that you don't know everything there is to know--few people do. But you likewise shouldn't blame others for your ignorance. You also shouldn't project your experience on others (and like /u/everything_is_free said, we all should be better about that).

But some stuff to get started:

The Maxwell Institute

FairMormon

Our own /u/brianhales

Richard Bushman

I really enjoyed this one about the book of Abraham: By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962096326/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Fb.MwbRT8GJNH

Funny enough there is a book about JWs with almost your exact wording. "I'm Perfect, Youre doomed"

I've been really into books about personal experiences lately!

Book contests are my favorite! :)

We believe that when the original twelve apostles (and those selected to replace them when they died) were killed, the authority to act for God (priesthood) was removed from the earth. As people lived without authority, their understanding of God's will got intermingled with worldly ideas. Finally the Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored in completeness through Joseph Smith.

But that doesn't mean that everything Catholic (or any other faith) is wrong. It means that the whole correct teachings with the proper authority are not in the Catholic church, but lots of well meaning and trying to live His gospel people and efforts remain within all faiths. If you are Catholic and want to compare see similarity and differences consider http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-roots-Mormon-Harvest-Shuster/dp/1599552574/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1458952015&sr=8-3&keywords=catholic+and+mormon or http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Mormon-Conversation-Stephen-Webb/dp/0190265922/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458952015&sr=8-1&keywords=catholic+and+mormon

Ignorant people exist everywhere.

Now, the stuff about the antichrist is complicated because the notion of a man who masquerades as the Messiah and fools the world IS part of Christianity. Obviously, fooling the world would include things like World Peace, and if he wants to win Israel over, he may build the Temple or something. But this is really all conjecture. All we know is that if Christ is the Godman (Theoanthropos) then the AntiChrist will be the perfect inverse of this, the Mangod (Anthropotheos). That's what we should all be on the look out for (keep your eye on the Transhumanists). Maybe he'll be Jewish, maybe he'll be Italian, who knows? I doubt it'll be so blatantly obvious.

Also, you may like this book, written by an Orthodox Jew who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950

The brethren used to publicly disagree about things. Now they disagree in a closed room. Because members are not privy to these disagreements, they assume:

1. that the brethren are completely united
   
2. that anything from church headquarters = the literal voice of God
   
   I’d love to see more of this healthy public debate among church leaders. The gospel of “having all the answers” is falling short for people in my generation. We ask deep, challenging questions. The exploration of deeper questions is far more fulfilling to me than having rote answers. I wish church leaders were engaging in this discussion rather than implying that they have all the answers and to just “get in line”.
   
   >> “You must work through the Spirit. If that leads you into conflict with the program of the Church, you follow the voice of the Spirit.” (Elder S. Dilworth Young, First Council of the Seventy, 1945; quoted here, p. 17)
   
   >> “We have hitherto acted too much as machines, as to following the Spirit. I will confess to my own shame that I have acted contrary to my own judgment many times. I mean hereafter not to demean myself, to not run contrary to my own judgment. …When President Young says that the Spirit of the Lord says thus and so, I don’t consider that all we should do is to say let it be so.” (Elder Orson Pratt, 1847, quoted here, cover jacket)

There is an excellent book titled Surprised by Christ. It is the true story of a Jewish man discovering Christianity, written by the man himself!

As he comes to Orthodox Christianity after Protestantism, there is definitely a bias in the Eastern Orthodox Christian direction, but not terribly so, I think.

PS - Look for this book to be released very soon:

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

I highly recommend Quinn's work. Fascinating, documented, and studious reading.

I came her to post ths. I've never personally read it, but I hear good things. Here is the amazon link. https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_24?keywords=lds+doctrine&qid=1573148979&s=books&sr=1-24

Google brings up "Faith on the March" by A H MacMillian, "The Truth that leads to Eternal Life", and "I'm Perfect, You're Doomed" which is satire.

It's on the book "by his own hand upon papyrus"

It's the first chapter. It mentions that people were starting to doubt Joseph Smith so they had to do something to revive the faith. When the mummy salesman came to town it was just what they needed: Show that Joseph could translate ancient documents.

Sources for some of this (disclaimer: some of this research is my own, but I believe it to be sound):

1. D&C and the reduced usage between about 1900 and 1950: See the third chart in this post. Usage drops by about 2/3.
   
2. Stopping the formal education of seminary teachers: See Lynn Packer video.
   
3. Regarding renaming of temple marriage, see this analysis
   
4. Regarding the other bits, probably your best source is Michael Quinn, Extensions of Power.
   
5. Regarding the use of science, logic, etc., in the 1930s in general conference, I have done some word analysis on this topic. Look at the 1930s-1940s and how they compare with other ears in the charts in this post.

>I'm currently waiting for some books by Hans Urs von Balthasar, particularly his book on Saint Maximus the Confessor's cosmology

I would highly recommend this as a good introduction to this subject.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money

Like this?

And D Michael Quinn's book is coming out next week. I think everyone trusts him.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

I thought you were making some shit up but you are correct:

From Moroni and the Swastika Book Review

"Chapter Five focuses on how Mormons used their strong belief in genealogy, which they used to provide sacred saving proxy ordinances for deceased family members, to ingratiate themselves with the Nazis, who had a strong belief in genealogy, which they used to determine an individual’s racial purity and whether or not they would lose civil rights or even be imprisoned. Chapter Six is called “Mormon Basketball Diplomacy in Hitler’s Reich”. It covers the German hosted 1936 Olympic games and gives details on how Mormon missionaries were the early coaches and trainers for the German Olympic basketball team. "

Photo

Buy the book

New Advent page: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10078b.htm

PDF of his Ambigua or Difficulties, on interpretation of difficult passages from Scripture and the Fathers: https://www.academia.edu/10390492/Introduction_to_Maximos_the_Confessor_The_Ambigua_Harvard_University_Press_2014_

A fantastic and slim volume from SVS Press in the Popular Patristics Series, general editor John Behr (I highly recommend these editions for all the Fathers): https://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Mystery-Jesus-Christ/dp/088141249X/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=maximus+the+confessor&qid=1565741206&s=gateway&sprefix=maximus+the+co&sr=8-2

You can buy his history here:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Church-Volume-Joseph-Smith/dp/B002Q7IP48

His article mentioned is in this book (I think): http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-Brigham-Madsen/dp/1560850272

But the mention that the Book of Mormon being written by Smith is best quoted here:

http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#bh

Has anybody read this?

I really enjoyed Kyria Abrams' memoir I'm Perfect, You're Doomed.

Escape by a woman who escaped polygamy. It resonated a little too much for comfort.

Escape https://www.amazon.com/dp/0767927575/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_hVn4Bb2JDAR22

Also if anyone tries to claim it is just an Anti-Mormon lie, go to Deseret Bookstore, owned by the Mormon church, open up Rough Stone Rolling.

It is documented there. An official documentation of the event from first hand accounts.

You can also purchase it online from the Deseret Book

https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-rough-stone-rolling-richard-l-bushman-5351?variant_id=104298-paperback

Or get an ebook from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling-ebook/dp/B000XUBEZM

I read Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner. That was it for me. Once I knew the truth about this subject, the rest was like a house of cards tumbling down.

Here is is a classic:
https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272

This video is excellent:
https://youtu.be/GAGasQ7j_ZI

I haven't read it, but this might be helpful. It just came out 3 weeks ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

Generally histories:

Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years

Chadwick - The Early Church

Retrieving Nicaea

Specific Important Authors

Apostolic Fathers

Origen Note: Not everything he said is orthodox, but he was an extremely important figure.

Desert Fathers

Athanasius - On the Incarnation

Basil - On the Holy Spirit

Gregory of Nazianzus

John Chrysostom

Augustine - Confessions

Rule of St. Benedict

Gregory the Great

Maximus the Confessor

John Damascus

The Third Book of Nephi. It has the thematic climax of the book where Jesus Christ appears to people on the American continent and establishes his church there.

I usually recommend Oxford's "A Very Short Introduction" series to people who want to learn more about Mormonism or The Book of Mormon, but who are not necessarily interested in conversion. They're short, like 100 pages, and scholarly though written by believers.

Surprised by Christ “Surprised by Christ.” Is a book by Fr. James Bernstein, a convert from Judaism and now an Orthodox Priest! I highly recommend!

Go ask around on r/ExMormon, r/ExJW, read I'm Perfect, You're Doomed by Kyria Abrahams. Celibacy for religious purposes is an anachronism in the age of condoms and birth control. It doesn't help anyone anymore.

> I've been reading No Man Knows My History,

It's not exactly an unbiased history. I'd recommend Alex Beam's American Crucifixion for a more evenhanded biography of Joseph Smith, or perhaps Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Lynn Bushman, though it's also more about the birth and growth of the Mormon Church (though Bushman does spend some time talking about Smith).

Beam is a non-Mormon journalist, Bushman is a practicing Mormon and Gouverneur Morris Professor of History emeritus at Columbia University

No, I don't equate everything to Nazi Germany. I was recalling something I MIGHT have read in a book about Mormonism in Nazi Germany. And, yes, I do actively try to inform myself politically.

The reason you were downvoted is because you come across as uninformed.

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032

This is my doctrine is a nice set of books that show that almost every single aspect of mormon doctrine has shifted over time.

Ummm I'd suggest just reading the actual book

That's how you're going to get the best answer. I read it and it was a huge factor in breaking my shelf because I think it's obvious he knew the BOM was bullshit (or at least that it wasn't literally/historically true).

Sir you need to read this: http://www.amazon.com/This-Is-My-Doctrine-Development/dp/1589581032

I wish a great deal more members and critics would read it. It is phenomenal and caused a drastic readjustment for me.

D. Michael Quinn addressed the scope of the finances (holding companies, property, etc.) in his book but I don't think he came up with a specific value. However, his goal was more to address the integration of church leadership in these external finances than to quantify them.

Edit: And I agree with you, it's really frustrating.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

I guess I should point out that this exists. I haven't read it so I cannot recommend it, but I really want to.

TSCC was pretty chill with the Nazis in this life, so it doesn't surprise me at all that there was some love for Hitler after his death.

I mean it's not like he was gay or black or anything. Instead he killed gay people, black people, and Jewish people (I've even heard TBMs alive today claim that the Jews deserved the Holocaust for crucifying Jesus—and not just alt-reich nutjob TBMs).

Totally not a fucked up cult /s

The Mormon church fit in relatively well with Nazi Germany; it is yet another sad chapter in the history of the church.

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474484978&sr=1-1

Amazon gives the date of February 15, 2017. https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/

I'm not sure how reliable that is

Regarding your point number 5:
https://www.amazon.ca/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

I recommend for the op to read:


The Reluctant Apostate: Leaving Jehovah's Witnesses Comes at a Price https://www.amazon.com/dp/0995669104/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Yvz4ybHCEXS26

It's a long book but it organizes a lot of Watchtower material/fallacies/scandals. It's written with non-JWs in mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928

Terryl Givens in the early part of this book talks about the differences between the Restorationism that came through Joseph Smith and what we see in the other Restorationist groups of that time. I believe it's within the first 2 chapters or so, so wouldn't be too hard to find if you have access to the book.

I think this is a good primer.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-Introduction-Richard-Lyman-Bushman/dp/0195310306/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1536140911&sr=1-2

Book

Book 2

Book 3

Book 4

Book 5

Book 6

Book 7

Book 8

Book 9

Comes to about $91.

Like this one?

This is the next book on my reading list. Moroni and the Swastika I've heard focuses on Mormons in Germany at the time but it could touch on what you're asking. Anyone else read this that can shed some light?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0806146680/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467557842&sr=1-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=moroni+and+the+swastika&dpPl=1&dpID=51LtvDcQJnL&ref=plSrch

Most members/exmos don't know about it, because the church doesn't talk about it.

https://www.amazon.com/Im-Perfect-Youre-Doomed-Upbringing/dp/1416556869

https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=F9YXCS1912MC6H5QDGF9

This one, this one, and then this one. In fact, read those even if you don't go.

A very in-depth and fully documented look at the early church can be found in D. Micheal Quinn's Origins and Extensions of Power books.

D Michael Quinn is set to release a book on finance in November.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468545789&sr=8-1&keywords=quinn+d+michael+books

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

$35.43 when you preorder on Amazon

That's a different book. He's talking about This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell, a BYU professor.

http://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369261705&sr=1-1&keywords=this+is+my+doctrine+the+development+of+mormon+theology

Yup, it was B.H. Roberts. The book he eventually wrote and published is called "Studies of the Book of Mormon."

Interestingly, the book was published by the University of Illinois, not the Church.

Choice quotes:

>In the early 1920s, Roberts was asked by the First Presidency of the LDS Church to develop an apologetic to explain difficulties in the Book of Mormon.

The book was published in 1985, which shows how long and hard he worked on it.

>Roberts was "torn by an internal struggle between his faith and a desire to be honest with himself.

A problem many at FAIR don't seem to struggle with....

>Roberts concluded that the "evidence I sorrowfully submit" pointed to Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon's creator.

>Although Roberts's manuscripts were intended for perusal by the general authorities of the LDS Church, the authorities proved uninterested in examining them.

Funny how the very people who gave him the task weren't interested. They really aren't scholars.

>He also warned that the problems described would haunt the church "both now and also in the future" and, unless answered, they would undermine "the faith of the Youth of the Church."

Good read for under $20

It was what ultimately made my shelf fall. I held up everything on the fact that the BoM existed and no explanation made sense except for the Church's accepted history.

Learning that a prophet tasked with that specific task came to the conclusion that Joseph probably wrote the book was earth-shattering.

No idea, but some links for context:

February: http://signaturebooks.com/wealth-and-corporate-power/

June: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1560852356/

You think Crisis blows your mind? Read The Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans. It covers stuff that is in Crisis, but goes even deeper down the rabbit hole, bringing the reader pretty close to up to date on the Borg.

https://smile.amazon.com/Reluctant-Apostate-Leaving-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0995669104/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537552743&sr=8-1&keywords=the+reluctant+apostate

I also have it linked in the text portion of the Wives of Joseph Smith Infographic

References:
Marriage Details are from wivesofjosephsmith.org
Which has compiled genealogical research from the following sources:

[A] familysearch.org (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

[B] Mormon Polygamy: A History, (Van Wagoner, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989)

[C] Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, (Newell & Avery, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1994)

[D] In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997)

[E] Doctrine and Covenants, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

Additional Panel References:

[1] "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy", NY Times, 8/23/1998, James Brooke

[2] Polyandry definition at wikipedia.

[3] Henry Jacobs' mission call; "Zina and Her Men", FAIR LDS Conference, 2006

[4] David Sessions mission call, wivesofjosephsmith.org, Patty Bartlett Sessions Biography

[5] Desdemona Fullmer quote, wivesofjosephsmith.org, D. Fuller Biography

*The cameo silhouettes were created by mormoninfographics for presentation purposes.

Other Resources
Black and White version of this chart for printouts, download here.
Full Rez image from above here.

Alas, I believe it has been pushed back to August. :(

Bias breakdown, in my opinion:

• At least seven are written from a pro-LDS perspective.
  
• Five are mostly critical of the church (I'm combining CES Letter and Letter for my Wife as one; they are largely redundant).
  
• Four are remarkably neutral; a balance of supportive and critical LDS narratives.
  
• Three are about Christian theology and don't even mention Mormonism once.
  
  ***
  EDIT: Damn, I knew I'd forget some. Add these to the list above:
  
  
• Studies of the Book of Mormon (B.H. Roberts) - proLDS
  
• Educated: A Memoir (Tara Westover) - neutral

> No, they don’t know about them.

But they do. But they find a way to explain it all away as the work of the devil (but yet thanks to him they have the truth from the Garden of Eden and they can "fall upwards"!!! )

>they are worse than true believing Mormons.

And is there such a thing as a true believing Mormon?? After all, besides the "burning in the bosom" what exactly can a Mormon defend without committing some "intellectual suicide?"

Mormons that develop the discouraged "gospel hobbies" are the ones that eventually find the path out of the church.

And the ones that stay many are unbelievers who sit in the pews - as described in this book, whether anyone thinks they are bad or not.

At this point the evidence is more than clear. It's like arguing for a flat earth when many know otherwise.

I read '1984' when I was 13 (a really dumb teacher gave it to me. Come on lady, some books you don't put into the hands of kids that young) and it scared me to death. I mean really traumatized. And it took me years to figure out why. In fact it was only a few weeks ago, and finding this subreddit when it all came together: I had grown up in 1984, we all had.

It was a pretty mindblowing revelation. And we're not the first ones to make it.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382064169&sr=8-1&keywords=orwellian+world+of+jehovah

So maybe a copy of Uncle Tom's Cabin, then . . .

Only you will know the best approach. The church has tons of weak spots. It's just that people place value on different things.

To discredit the Book of Mormon itself as a historical document, start with a couple of simple websites. I really find the Wikipedia page on BOM anachronisms to be a great starting point. It's an avalanche of evidence in short form. If this is her "one thing" have her go down the list and discuss each item on the page. How does she explain the elephants? The metal currency? The animals that shouldn't be there and the animals that should have been in a book set in the ancient US? If the Book of Mormon can be shown to be a work of fiction, the rest unravels.

To discredit Joseph Smith as a person who produced divine scripture, read By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. It's not too long, and because we actually have the original text used to produce the Book of Abraham, it's very easy to prove that what Smith produced was a bunch of made up bullshit.

To draw attention to the fact that Joseph Smith was a serial rapist who abused his spiritual authority to have sex with women who trusted him, all the while going behind his wife's back, send her to Wives of Joseph Smith. In Sacred Loneliness is excellent and extremely thorough, but the book is also the size of a cinder block and can be off-putting to someone only willing to read one thing.

To point out historical spin on polygamy, you could discuss the following:

• Remember that awesome story about how Smith ordered Heber C. Kimball to give his wife Vilate over to him as a plural wife, and Kimball handed her over like chattel? The church teaches this as some kind of great show of faith, completely glossing over the fact that Vilate was not property to be given away and that just a few months later Smith was fucking their 14 year old daughter instead.
  
• Remember that tragic story of martyrdom where Joseph Smith was dragged out of his house to be tarred, feathered, and nearly castrated, and then one of his adopted twins died? Gee, why would they want to castrate him? Could it be because he was having sex with women he wasn't married to, putting them at risk for rejection by society? One of the mob members that night was a brother of a girl Smith had recently propositioned, so his actions were what caused the death of the baby. Chew on that for a while.
  
• Remember why Joseph Smith was in jail for that last time? Yes, it was for violating the First Amendment. He ordered the destruction of a printing press because it created the papers that revealed all of the fucking around he had been doing. The publisher of that paper was William Law, his counselor in the presidency, who had spent years defending Smith against charges of polygamy and only learned the truth when his own wife was propositioned. William Law was doing nothing but telling the truth about Smith's behavior, and Smith's own lawless actions in trying to cover up polygamy are what brought him to his death.
  
  The polygamy issue is a rabbit hole of ugliness that nobody can unsee. It's possible your wife is genuinely unbothered by it and wouldn't care how many women and girls Smith raped, but I want to believe if she has any conscience at all that her stomach will turn once she sees what is behind the curtain.