Reddit mentions: The best christian social issue books
We found 598 Reddit comments discussing the best christian social issue books. We ran sentiment analysis on each of these comments to determine how redditors feel about different products. We found 211 products and ranked them based on the amount of positive reactions they received. Here are the top 20.
1. God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
- Twelve
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Release date | April 2009 |
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2. God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
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Height | 8.5 Inches |
Length | 5.72 Inches |
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Release date | April 2014 |
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3. Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality
- Zondervan
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Height | 7.1 Inches |
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Release date | September 2016 |
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4. Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile
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Number of items | 1 |
Release date | September 2008 |
Weight | 1.02074027306 Pounds |
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5. What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality
Used Book in Good Condition
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Height | 8.5 Inches |
Length | 5.75 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Weight | 0.5 Pounds |
Width | 0.25 Inches |
6. Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile
- Religion Books
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Color | Multicolor |
Height | 0.98 Inches |
Length | 8 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Release date | April 1999 |
Weight | 0.5 Pounds |
Width | 5.44 Inches |
7. Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians
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Height | 8.5 Inches |
Length | 5.5 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Release date | April 2018 |
Weight | 0.56 Pounds |
Width | 0.49 Inches |
8. How Should We Then Live?: The Rise and Decline of Western Thought and Culture (L'Abri 50th Anniversary Edition)
- Brand new textbook
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Weight | 0.90830451944 Pounds |
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9. The Bruised Reed (Puritan Paperbacks)
- Used Book in Good Condition
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Length | 5 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Weight | 0.3 Pounds |
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10. Is Belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant?: A Professor and a Punk Rocker Discuss Science, Religion, Naturalism Christianity
- 58 in. long x 2.75 in. wide
- We're TheTieBar, the trendy neckwear company endorsed by GQ Magazine.
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11. Is God anti-gay? (Questions Christians Ask)
- Good Book Co
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12. When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself
- Moody Publishers
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Length | 5.9 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Release date | February 2014 |
Weight | 1.06 Pounds |
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13. God is Red: A Native View of Religion, 30th Anniversary Edition
Fulcrum Group
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Height | 9 Inches |
Length | 6 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Weight | 1.15 Pounds |
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14. God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
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Release date | April 2014 |
15. Jesus for President: Politics for Ordinary Radicals
- Zondervan Publishing Company
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Height | 8 Inches |
Length | 6.1 Inches |
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Release date | March 2008 |
Weight | 1.30734121366 Pounds |
Width | 0.75 Inches |
17. The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation
- The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation
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Height | 9.31 inches |
Length | 6.5 inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Release date | March 2017 |
Weight | 0.9 Pounds |
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18. The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church
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Release date | March 2019 |
Weight | 1.26986262912 Pounds |
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19. Hitler's Cross: How the Cross was used to promote the Nazi agenda
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Height | 8.5 Inches |
Length | 5.5 Inches |
Release date | July 2012 |
Weight | 0.70106999316 Pounds |
Width | 0.63 Inches |
20. The Cross in the Closet
Used Book in Good Condition
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Height | 9 Inches |
Length | 6 Inches |
Number of items | 1 |
Weight | 1.22 Pounds |
Width | 0.89 Inches |
🎓 Reddit experts on christian social issue books
The comments and opinions expressed on this page are written exclusively by redditors. To provide you with the most relevant data, we sourced opinions from the most knowledgeable Reddit users based the total number of upvotes and downvotes received across comments on subreddits where christian social issue books are discussed. For your reference and for the sake of transparency, here are the specialists whose opinions mattered the most in our ranking.
There are many factors involved.
>Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
>2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
So you are seeing and choosing and working, but it is as God is showing and calling and working. It's both at once. And yet as I said before, not only God...
>1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared,
So we must be careful. Without a life rich in God and acts of faithfulness, it can be very easy to be led astray, and to have our consciences seared so we do not even feel what we are truly doing to ourselves. There are even some ways that we can be blind to a whole culture of sin we don't even recognize because we are distracted by the most severe offenses of passion.
For some good examples of what I mean by that last bit, I recommend a book called "Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile" by Rob Bell. He isn't always a good teacher, so he has fallen out of popularity and you can find the book used for a penny on Amazon, but while I wouldn't recommend everything he has written, that one book is a good easily accessible teaching on incarnational faith and opening your eyes wider to what holiness is about and the kind of spiritual circumstances we're in with our modern materialistic culture and how it can affect our spiritual vitality.
But as for right now, a simple analogy. We say "bearing fruit" right? Well if a plant isn't bearing fruit, do you change the plant, or do you change the conditions the plant is in? Clearly everyone knows you do the latter, and cultivating our faith is the same way. It's not about just forcing ourselves to desire and to do good in any state, but we amend our lives so that holiness grows in us naturally from all the factors we have arranged. Some of it is where and how we are grounded, some is receiving enough light, some is a regimen of disciplines to nourish us. It's not all pruning.
On science and evolution:
Genetics is where it's at. There is a ton of good fossil evidence, but genetics actually proves it on paper. Most books you can get through your local library (even by interlibrary loan) so you don't have to shell out for them just to read them.
Books:
The Making of the Fittest outlines many new forensic proofs of evolution. Fossil genes are an important aspect... they prove common ancestry. Did you know that humans have the gene for Vitamin C synthesis? (which would allow us to synthesize Vitamin C from our food instead of having to ingest it directly from fruit?) Many mammals have the same gene, but through a mutation, we lost the functionality, but it still hangs around.
Deep Ancestry proves the "out of Africa" hypothesis of human origins. It's no longer even a debate. MtDNA and Y-Chromosome DNA can be traced back directly to where our species began.
To give more rounded arguments, Hitchens can't be beat: God Is Not Great and The Portable Atheist (which is an overview of the best atheist writings in history, and one which I cannot recommend highly enough). Also, Dawkin's book The Greatest Show on Earth is a good overview of evolution.
General science: Stephen Hawking's books The Grand Design and A Briefer History of Time are excellent for laying the groundwork from Newtonian physics to Einstein's relativity through to the modern discovery of Quantum Mechanics.
Bertrand Russell and Thomas Paine are also excellent sources for philosophical, humanist, atheist thought; but they are included in the aforementioned Portable Atheist... but I have read much of their writings otherwise, and they are very good.
Also a subscription to a good peer-reviewed journal such as Nature is awesome, but can be expensive and very in depth.
Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate is also an excellent look at the human mind and genetics. To understand how the mind works, is almost your most important tool. If you know why people say the horrible things they do, you can see their words for what they are... you can see past what they say and see the mechanisms behind the words.
I've also been studying Zen for about a year. It's non-theistic and classed as "eastern philosophy". The Way of Zen kept me from losing my mind after deconverting and then struggling with the thought of a purposeless life and no future. I found it absolutely necessary to root out the remainder of the harmful indoctrination that still existed in my mind; and finally allowed me to see reality as it is instead of overlaying an ideology or worldview on everything.
Also, learn about the universe. Astronomy has been a useful tool for me. I can point my telescope at a galaxy that is more than 20 million light years away and say to someone, "See that galaxy? It took over 20 million years for the light from that galaxy to reach your eye." Creationists scoff at millions of years and say that it's a fantasy; but the universe provides real proof of "deep time" you can see with your own eyes.
Videos:
I recommend books first, because they are the best way to learn, but there are also very good video series out there.
BestofScience has an amazing series on evolution.
AronRa's Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism is awesome.
Thunderfoot's Why do people laugh at creationists is good.
Atheistcoffee's Why I am no longer a creationist is also good.
Also check out TheraminTrees for more on the psychology of religion; Potholer54 on The Big Bang to Us Made Easy; and Evid3nc3's series on deconversion.
Also check out the Evolution Documentary Youtube Channel for some of the world's best documentary series on evolution and science.
I'm sure I've overlooked something here... but that's some stuff off the top of my head. If you have any questions about anything, or just need to talk, send me a message!
Let me first say this: you are an amazing and incredibly courageous woman! There are two things I have found to be the most important in life. A life without them is one stripped of its humanity and flavor. Indeed, people have died for them, fought for them and spent countless lifetimes seeking them;and rightly so for they are freedom and truth. I left my religion because I would not be a slave to any man, clergy or capricious deity. I left because I would not rest my entire existence on an iron age book that was obviously a lie. I valued my freedom and my quest for truth more than the love that my family had for me, more than my friends and my security. For finding the strength, the courage and above all the love of humanity to do the same...I want you to know that you deserve respect.
I can definitely sympathize with the non-christian culture problem. Think about it this way: you are on a great adventure. For the first time in your life, you have been given the chance to discover what it truly means to be YOU (free of cavemen superstitions and guilt of being human). As hardcore Christians we were taught that everything about us is just that-christian. That is not true! We still have our own personal preferences, personalities and tastes. The mistake that people make is to assume that, because they are no longer Christians, they are sorority material and going clubbing every weekend is their cup of tea. So be yourself, surround yourself with people who will love you for it and most importantly: don't be afraid to tell your story. Stories are the foundation of identity and having one is essential to being human. The next time you are completely lost in a conversation, don't be scared to say why. Doing so will not only help the other person connect with you on a deeper level, it will also help you gain more self acceptance. Sure, maybe the sexy quarterback won't want you anymore. But do you really want people in your life who would turn their backs on you, if only they knew ye? Don't worry about it too much though. In time, you will be surprised by how much of a non-christian you have become.
Your mother may no longer be with you but she lives on through your memories and her legacy to the family she cherished and to the world she lived in. I think it is more respectful and humane to celebrate who she was and what she accomplished than to constantly spend that time feeding the false hope of seeing her again. I am sorry if I sound too rude but I could not find a better way to say it. When all the chips are down, your family may no longer want you. I can feel the pain that brings as I write this. However, its would be their loss and not yours. You can surround your life with people who love you and support you despite not being blood relatives-isn't that what family is all about? And should you feel so inclined, you can make your own family and have children that you will "love no matter what (parenting 101)".
Lastly, you do not need to worry about burning in hell, trust me. Better still, don't trust me and pick up three books I strongly recommend: [Godless] (http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Evangelical-Preacher-Americas-Atheists/dp/1569756775) ,[Letter to a christian nation] (http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Sam-Harris/dp/0307278778/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427723744&sr=1-1&keywords=letter+to+a+christian+nation) and [God is not great] (http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427723824&sr=1-1&keywords=god+is+not+great) . Before you do that ask yourself: if you went to heaven, would you trust yourself to have a good time knowing that good people are being tortured FOREVER? Why? Because they didn't believe in a god that did everything he could to hide from us. Or maybe they mistakenly believed in the wrong one?
As for my story. Well, I was raised in a christian fundamentalist cult. Being LGBT certainly didn't help and all in all, it would probably make you cry. You don't need to cry right now, you need to be happy because from now on you will forever be free of the superstitions of ancient cavemen (85% of the world still isn't). You are free to own your own mind, your body and your soul -just kidding, nobody has one-you are truly free (pause a moment and realize what that means) and the prototype for the next step in the evolution of the homo sapiens mindset. I am sure there are far more cheerful stories here on Reddit.
So sorry to hear you had struggles with good male role models. I actually think Mormon men make pretty great role models, and my dad was very much present in my life, and the LDS church really urges guys to have a very active role in their kids lives. Also, the church takes a lot of time making sure teens have good experiences, and I actually really liked several things about being a teenager (but others not so much). On the good side, I had very cool youth leaders (similar to youth pastors) that came up with great activities and were very easy to relate to. They always heard me out on my questions and so there were great role models throughout the church. Leadership is particularly important for men in Mormonism, and while this is sometimes at the expense of girls getting leadership opportunities (for example, many congregations will spend quite a bit of their yearly budgets getting boys involved in outdoors programs and other activities where they will have chances to be leaders and learn skills. Girls often are left with whatever is left over. But this is starting to change.) On the problematic side, leadership does conduct worthiness interviews with teens. Some leaders keep this brief and casual and really only bother to dig into things if the kids bring it up. Others, like the leaders I had growing up, will specifically ask about certain things like masturbation, porn use, sexual activity, etc to really probe and dig into whether or not the teens are doing what they were supposed to. I struggled a long time with feelings of being unworthy, I felt pretty worthless and struggled a lot with my self esteem once I started to get interviewed like that. That, I would say, was a downside and left me with resentment and I, after seeking some help dealing with some of the residual feelings I had from those years, realize that my general distrust of men stems from those interviews and some of my mom's attitudes and actions, because I was convinced that every man was more or less a sexual predator at heart based on what the leadership would often say was something they were making sure people weren't doing to justify what they would ask in interviews, and what my mom would say about men in general and more targeted comments at me. It's something I still struggle with quite a bit. So yeah, pros and cons, haha.
So when it comes to politics, Mormons are generally conservative, and generally republican. In some regions of the US Mormons tend to be slightly more progressive and liberal compared to their Utah counterparts, but are still very generally Republican. Utah is very conservative, especially outside of Salt Lake County. A lot of this is actually discussed in that same research I talked about above. That said, Millennial Mormons, across the board, are generally more progressive and liberal than their parents were, and LGBTQ issues are a big topic there. Basically just look at the general trends in the US, adjust them to be slightly more conservative, and that's more or less where Mormons tend to stand. See some conversation around this here and here. And while I haven't read it myself, if you're interested in further details on this topic, it's worth getting The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church where most of this research is documented.
There is a great summary I've heard about Mormon politics that is pretty well stated in this article:
>If you gave the typical Mormon a quiz on being a conservative, he or she would ace it. Socially conservative mixed with the small government views of the Mountain West, most Mormons hold conservative positions on the major issues of the day.
>
>That said, there are some nuances. On abortion, Mormons support the view of the LDS Church, which permits abortion in the case of rape or the life of the mother. Mormons are more supportive of allowing abortion in these cases than the average American (that’s right: in these cases, Mormons are the most pro-choice). But on abortion in general, Mormons are among the most pro-life, opposing abortion because the mother is in poverty or has other private reasons for making her decision.
>
>Mormons are also more in favor of immigration, particularly compared to the average Republican. One reason is the exposure to other cultures. Mormons are more likely to see immigration as a good thing if they’ve gone on a mission, particularly a foreign mission.
I've noted these trends as well. In my experience, Mormons are not only more likely to support immigration policy, but general policies that allow for countries to mutually benefit instead of pushing for the US to get the best deal, for example. I've also noticed that Mormons tend to be much more supportive of Muslim and Jewish communities than some Christian conservatives I know of (I have family who are in other Christian denominations that are VERY negative in how the talk about Muslims, in particular). Mormons don't frame religious freedom from a Christian perspective as much as some religious conservatives do, in my experience.
As for what modern revelation means, and whether that will cause the LDS church to move in a more secular direction, it's hard to say. But that has been the trend, over time. Policy has tended to change in progressive ways over time, as I mentioned before, where the practice of polygamy and allowing for Black members of the church to have priesthood and go to the temple could be seen as progressive advances, potentially motivated by external pressures. But that does not take the whole picture into account, as many LDS members are very adamant that those changes were due to revelation, and that the revelation should be trusted even if it seems to follow a trend. I think there is merit to both sides of that argument.
Another change that has recently happened was that the LDS church had a pretty strong, if mostly cultural, stance that people weren't really gay, but giving in to temptation or allowing sin to cloud their judgement. This is a position made clear in the book by Spencer W. Kimball, who served as an apostle and then President of the LDS church, called The Miracle of Forgiveness, where he claims that practices like masturbation or inappropriate thoughts would lead someone to homosexual behavior (see a brief discussion on this here). It was quite clear that it was not something that was an inherent part of a person, but rather something they learned through sin. Even more recently, Apostle David Bednar stated "there are no homosexual members of the church" where he basically says that homosexual attraction is merely a temptation rather than an actual part of a person's identity. While this stance is not necessary gone in Mormonism, it is no longer a punishable offense for someone to say they are gay and openly identify as gay, as shown in the "Mormon and Gay" site I linked above, where someone can be both Mormon and Gay. Many people speculate that, with that subtle shift, it could be an indication that leadership in the future may be more open to the idea of homosexual relationships eventually being allowed under certain situations. Personally, I think that there is doctrinal space for the idea of "for life only" marriages between gay couples in Mormonism, and it will be interesting to see if that happens. But, that sort of speculation is hardly a reason to decide to stay or go. Ultimately, if you feel the conviction that the LDS church is god's church, then that is the standard that the LDS church requires to join.
> First, I'm interested in how Israel is connected in Reformed Theology. I live in an area where Christian Zionism is the air you breathe and every single policy has to benefit Israel or else God will be against us. I doubt this for many reasons. How do we talk to folks like this? How do we work to change this kind of attitude? What do the Scriptures really say about Israel?
The Puritan Richard Sibbes writes, "The faithful Jews rejoiced to think of the calling of the Gentiles; and why should not we joy to think of the calling of the Jews?"
The Reformed, while far from Zionist or dispensationalist, do hope for the conversion of the Jews before the end of the world. Francis Turretin mentions this in the third volume of his Institutes (the 18th Topic, Question 9), for instance, and the Westminster Larger Catechism teaches that such a hope is implicit in the Lord's Prayer:
> Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?
> A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in...
That said, the current geopolitical nation of Israel is against Christ. Although I have not read it, The Israel of God by O. Palmer Robertson has been recommended to me.
> Secondly, I'm really wondering about the apostles. Not just their history, but the theology behind them. What did it take to be an apostle?
The apostles were sent out (as in the verb ἀποστέλλω) by Christ as the great Apostle (John 20:21, Hebrews 3:1). Mark 3:14-19, 6:30; John 20:21-23; and 1 Corinthians 15:5-8 show the apostleship of the twelve disciples.
> If Peter was greater, then why does it appear that James had more authority in Acts 15 or we have more of Paul's letters?
He who would become great in the kingdom of God is to become a servant, ministering to others (Matthew 20:26-28). The apostles all shared equal authority, as they were all sent out by Christ with the same commission.
Although the first to confess Christ, Peter did not lord his apostolic authority over others. Diotephes loved to have preeminence, while Peter counted himself as a fellow-presbyter (συμπρεσβύτερος) among colleagues in the ministry, not even the first among equals (3 John 1:9, 1 Peter 5:1). On the contrary, the apostle exhorted his presbyterian associates to be ministers of God, not masters exercising tyranny over the Church (1 Peter 5:1-4).
> Was Paul counted as one of the 12? If so, who did he replace? If 12 wasn't too significant to the overall picture, then why start with 12 and add more later?
The number twelve is significant, since the twelve apostles are the faithful witnesses to the twelve tribes of Israel (Luke 22:29-30, Acts 1:8, James 1:1, Revelation 21:14).
Paul, however, was an apostle to the Gentiles, not to the twelve tribes of Israel (Romans 1:5; Galatians 1:16, 2:8). This may also explain why we have the most letters from him.
> Was an apostle always someone who had divine authourity? Then shouldn't we have their writings? Why does Paul say one of the ways you can know he's an apostle is by his suffering? And how would the Jews at that time have seen the role of apostle? Was it analogous to any priestly or prophetic duty?
An apostle had priority over a prophet (1 Corinthians 12:28). For a general overview, you may want to read the entry on Apostle in John Brown of Haddington's A Dictionary of the Holy Bible.
> I'm wondering if there are any other works on the Sabbath history? How did the first 8 centuries of the church handle this question?
I would very much recommend The Sabbath Viewed in the Light of Reason, Revelation, and History by James Gilfillan. At the beginning of the book the author sketches the "Sabbatic controversies and literature prior to the Reformation," and proceeds to summarize the first six centuries of the Christian era:
> Among the Fathers and early Christian writers, no fewer than thirty-one out of forty-seven have adverted, with less or more brevity, to the Sabbatic institution. Both as combatants against Pagan and Jewish errors, and as witnesses, whose testimony, justly held worthy of attention and respect, is to be adduced in another part of this volume, they claim in this place a brief notice:—
> First Century.—Within the period comprised in New Testament history, only two instances occur in which uninspired writers refer to a stated time for religious worship. In a.d. 68-70, Clemens Romanus wrote his celebrated Epistle from the Church of Rome, of which he was bishop or presbyter, to that of Corinth, in which he refers to the seasons of worship as by Christ instituted and commanded to be observed. ...
> Barnabas, another fellow-labourer of Paul, whose Catholic Epistle (a.d. 71 or 72) has for its object to show that the Mosaic dispensation was divinely superseded by the Christian, expressly mentions the universal celebration by the Church of the eighth day as a holy day, in place of the former seventh day. This epistle, written, as Lardner has unanswerably shown, a year or two after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, is quoted as the work of Barnabas by Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, and was, like the preceding, read in some of the early churches along with the Scriptures.
> Second Century.—In the early part of this century, in 107, or more probably, as some suppose, in 116, Ignatius, a disciple of the apostle John, and afterwards bishop of Antioch, suffered martyrdom, being, by order of the Emperor Trajan, conveyed to Rome, and exposed to the wild beasts in the amphitheatre. On his way to Rome he wrote letters to various churches... In the letter to the Church of Magnesia, there occurs a passage which has been frequently adduced in proof that the Lord's Day was recognised and observed in his time.
> In his first Apology, addressed, in 138 or 139, to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, Justin [Martyr]...records the manner in which the Christians, in the early part of the second century, observed their weekly holy day; and, in his Dialogue with Trypho...vindicates them for not keeping the Jewish Sabbath. He was born in Palestine, about the year 100...and suffered martyrdom about 165.
> We are indebted to Eusebius for notices of three writers who flourished in 170. Melito, bishop of Sardis, was the author of several works, no longer extant, with the exception of a few fragments preserved by the historian, one of which is peculiarly valuable, as containing a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament. Among his works, which had come to the hands of Eusebius, was one περί κυριακῆς—on the Lord's Day, this title alone now surviving of what appears to have been the first distinct treatise on the institution. ...
Etc. This is only a prelude, however, to a study of the entire history of the Sabbath from a Reformed perspective.
If you want to read a history of Puritan Sabbatarianism, there is [The Market Day of the Soul](https://www.amazon.com/Market-Day-Soul-James-Dennison/dp/1573580627/).
> How do our cultural trends affect how we worship on the Lord's Day. How does Sabbatarianism deal with the Sabbath usually starting on the sundown of the "day" before?
If you can read it, William Gouge explains this in The Sabbath's Sanctification.
> Question 48. When begins the Lord's Day?
> Ans. In the morning. Act. 20.7.
> When Paul came to the Church at Troas, he had a mind to spend a Lord's day with them, though he was in great haste to depart so soon as he could. He came therefore to their assembly at the time that they came together according to their custom: but he kept them till the end of the day: (for he would not travel on the Lord's day) and having dismissed the assembly, he departed. Now it is said that he continued his speech till midnight (Acts 20.7), even till break of day (verse 11), and then departed: which departure of his is said to be on the morrow. By this punctual expression of the time, it appears that the first day of the week, the Lord's day, ended at midnight, and that then the morrow began. Now to make a natural day, which consisteth of twenty four hours, it must begin and end at the same time: for the end of one day is the beginning of another. There is not a minute betwixt them. As therefore the Lord's day ended at midnight, so it must begin at midnight, when we count the morning to begin. Which is yet more evident by this phrase (Mat. 28.1) In the end of the Sabbath (namely of the week before, which was the former Sabbath) as it began to dawn (namely on the next day, which was the Lord's day). Or (as Joh. 20.1) when it was yet dark there came divers to anoint the body of Jesus, but they found him not in the grave: he was risen before: so as Christ rose before the sun.
There is more.
> How practically should we handle this day?
A good place to start is chapter 21 of the Westminster Confession of Faith as well as the related catechism questions (Questions 57 to 62 of the Shorter and Questions 115 to 121 of the Larger). Fisher's Catechism of the Smaller Catechism elaborates in more detail. For even more detail, you can read [The True Doctrine of the Sabbath*](https://www.amazon.com/Sabbathum-Veteris-Novi-Testamenti-Doctrine/dp/160178399X/) by Nicholas Bownd.
This is at least partially true, we all too often explain rather than deduce. However, it also means we have reason to trust extrinsic evidence over intrinsic evidence, and demand our beliefs converge as closely as possible with the findings of science, which is name we've given to the best set of tools we've created for removing bias from our understanding.
If any religion was true, it should be increasingly convergent over time, not increasingly divergent. See also the problem of inconsistant revelations.
I'm not a Christian because no evidence has been proposed that makes Christianity exceptional, and lots has been proposed that makes it wrong in it's traditional formulations. See for example the lack of an historical Adam, which is highly damaging to the Pauline view of Christianity.
Also, the Bible is just plain wrong on the first 13 billion years of the universe, the first ~247,000 years of the human species, the first at least 47,000 years of socially modern humans, the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, the grand united Davidic kingdom(though there was likely a local Davidic Kingdom, whose size and power are still debated as new evidence appears), and just about everything else before the 8th century BC. It's clear from textual clues the historical David was pumped up to justify the political ambitions of Josiah (who, you'll recall, "just happened" to "find" the Deuteronomic books that were "lost".) From then on it's a heavily biased book, demonizing the acts of certain rulers and glorifying others, in ways that don't seem to fit the historical record. The stories it contains condone misogyny, genocide, homophobia, slavery, etc as we should expect as the natural writings of the wisdom of desert dwellers in 8th to 4th century BC. (For more, see The Bible Unearthed, which despite being 10 years old has aged quite well. The only debated part in the journals has been just how small the Davidic kingdom is, but no one is arguing for the grand united Davidic kingdom as seen in the Bible.)
The Bible is not all bad of course, some of the writers had lofty goals like social justice and care for the poor in mind. But it certainly doesn't read like the perfect revelation of an almighty God. Most scholars would happily agree with me, and seek to increasingly mystify the Bible. (See Borg's Reading the Bible Again For the First Time for one of the better examples.)
You'll note William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga, though accomplished philosophers, both heavily lean on the "internal witness of the Holy Spirit" for their own belief. Once again, this is introspection, and devalues the religious experiences of every other religion out there.
If there were other evidence that led us to think any of this might be true, I'd be happy to go that way. But so far, I have not found any. The best argument that takes all the evidence into account is Spongs, given in Why Christianity Must Change or Die, and A New Christianity for a New World. Like many modern theologians, he has retreated into a panentheistic view of God, who is out there but outside of the reach of our understanding, and demotes all holy books to the writings of humans trying to understand this being. This at least is cogent, though once again it mostly boils down to mistaking introspection for facts.
I've written before on what it would take for me to believe, and as you'll see if you read it, it's pretty much "convergent evidence". Right now, no religion has that, and each one says they are justified based on introspection.
Science converges based on an external reality, religion diverges based on biased introspection and mutual competing claimed "revelations" that clearly aren't.
And that is in a nutshell why I'm an atheist. (At least that's what I tell myself. ;-)
(Sorry for the preaching, but it was just about the perfect setup ;-)
Okay let me clarify my position to you. **warning it will be kind of long so I can try to be precise and concise about what I am saying.
So within Catholic teachings, same sex attraction (ie being gay) is not sinful. It may lead to a particular set of temptations. The temptation is not sinful. Sin would only enter if one succumbs to that temptation (which in this case means to lust or to physical act on those temptations). The same sex attractions may persist for a lifetime and represent a cross the person carries or it may be only for a season. The persistence of the same sex attractions (i.e being gay is not sinful).
>Christians believe being gay is a choice. And that you can turn from it
When I saw you say the above. That reads as basically saying that a person chooses to experience same sex attractions and that if they really wanted to, they could stop experiencing them and become straight. You even used an example of a person you said was gay and become straight. and with this comment (https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/d73x9i/just_a_reminder_about_gay_sin/f0xqp0j/) I took it as meaning the gay celibate person following God wasn't trying hard enough and didn't truly believe since they still had the same sex attractions.
Comments like this after:
>I believe because I thought like them. That’s what makes my faith so powerful to me. Give it a try.
Because we were arguing two different things read to me like the celibate gay person example doesn't have powerful faith like you and if they gave it a try (implying they didn't have faith to begin with) they would be 'fixed' too. Which wasn't what you meant correct?
What I was trying to ask you was you seemed to suggest that if a person (in this case for example) didn't become straight that they were not trying hard enough (using your example and your friends example). I used Paul's thorn in his side to suggest that while God can remove crosses in our lives, he doesn't always. He promises to give us strength to carry them but not always to remove them for reasons that aren't always clear to us though Paul has some understanding for his personal cross.
The reason I asked because there are groups who would suggest that a celibate gay person who is abstaining from lust and sexual activity but still experiences temptations is actively sinning because they are not straight, that they don't really want it or haven't tried hard enough, that they lack true faith. In my view people who suggest that are basically saying persistence of a cross even if you carry it is a sign of lack of faith and if you have enough faith God gives you want you want (ie remove the cross or make you rich) which to me is in essence a form of gospel of prosperity heresy.
I tried to reference an article that talked somewhat about that here (I'll pull out the important excerpt): https://spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/09/celibacy-and-healing/
>To pray for healing and to pray for orientation change are not identical. Paul says that though some of the Corinthians had engaged in various forms of sin, including homosexual activity, they were washed, sanctified, and justified. Some have used this as proof that God promises orientation change. But in the very next chapter, he praises celibacy as a higher calling—a better way of serving Christ—than marriage. If we are to “earnestly desire the higher gifts,” and to pray boldly for them, then there surely is nothing amiss if we pray boldly for this gift.
>To live celibacy well requires in some ways a deeper healing, and a more dramatic inner transformation than opposite sex marriage would require. Although our pursuit of chastity—whether in marriage or in single life—begins with difficult self-denial, and often involves ongoing seasons of deep struggle, we shouldn’t think of celibacy primarily as a “booby prize”: the consolation given to the losers whose prayers for “healing” (understood solely in terms of orientation change) go unanswered. Nor should we view the sometimes gradual but resolute approach to Christian perfection in the life of those whose orientation has not changed as evidence that God has not healed. To do so involves a radical misunderstanding of vocation and of the work of the Holy Spirit.
I also tried to give you a good reference of Wesley Hill. He is an Anglican college professor who is gay (ie experiences same sex attractions) but adheres to a traditional sexual ethic. He wrote a short book about his personal testimonial and some of his theological viewpoints called "Washed and Waiting" (https://www.amazon.com/Washed-Waiting-Reflections-Faithfulness-Homosexuality/dp/0310534194)
There are groups out there (particular among some independent Baptists) who think that being gay (ie experiencing same sex attractions) equates to being reprobate and meaning one is not saved or lacks authentic faith. Others argue that simply experiencing same sex attraction is itself sinful regardless how someone responds to it. For them, the only way for that person to be redeemed would be to become straight. So my close friend who is in his 50s, gay but holds to a traditional sexual ethic, loves the Lord, and seeks to live in the light of Christ would be damned to them simply because he carries a particular cross. I think because of confusion between what my argument was and some misunderstanding of what I thought you were saying it felt to me like you were arguing that position.
Awesome, it's great you're so proud of her!
Haha knowledge that leads to everlasting boredom! Book studies were the worst, I always felt super obligated to study extra hard because there were so few people that often nobody would answer!
Don't be so sure that your family will keep abandoning you, it's possible sure, but there's always hope! Often they're surprised that you can leave the witnesses and live a normal, or even better than normal life (of course there's always the "blessed by satan" get out clause) but they do expect people who leave to get aids and die from a heroin overdose.
It's easy to prove them wrong! Either way though, you have your own family to look out for and you can learn what not to do!
On to the suggested reading. I've mentioned many on here before but I don't expect everyone to be aware of it all so here goes:
Reading (I have a kindle and love reading, but they're all available for ebook and in paperback)
Web
Pocasts
(all on iTunes etc, i like them because I can listen at work or download to my phone)
That's about it for now, if you soak all that in / want more / have suggestions let me know, and I'd love to hear what you think! :)
You're going to buy yourself this super interesting book!
Happy happy cake day :D
If I win, anything I linked OR anything from my wishlist would be an amazingggg prize :) I love everything on my wishlists!
If you would like to PM me and ask more questions, I'm always happy to help people who were where I was 4 years ago.
​
Here are a few good Affirming (A) resources to start out with:
Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-VS-Christians Debate by Justin Lee (A)
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Matthew Vines (A)
Modern Kinship by David and Constantino Khalaf (A)
Blue Babies Pink by Brett Trapp / B.T. Harmann (A)
Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships by James Brownson (A)
Sex and the Single Savior: Gender and Sexuality in Biblical Interpretation by Dale Martin (A)
Risking Grace, Loving Our Gay Family and Friends Like Jesus by Dave Jackson (A)
​
I'm compiling a list of other good resources / bad ones (from all perspectives, not just ones I disagree with), so let me know if you're looking for something more specific.
I went through almost the exact same thing. After leaving our main church, my wife and I stopped going all together. Several years later, after we moved because of jobs, we started going again. Needless to say, that didn't last long.
My wife and I both come from very strong Christian backgrounds; my wife's father was a Southern-Baptist minister for decades, and my dad went to Dallas Theological Seminary and taught church classes most of his life. So let's just say that leaving wasn't an easy thing.
However, my own search led me to realize the truth. Since my wife and I are very close, I talked with her about these things but was very careful about what I said. I'm still careful. I approach the discussions from the standpoint of "searching for answers" rather than declaring that I've already decided.
My mantra over the last few years has been "If it were possible to know the truth, and one of the possibilities was that God didn't exist, would you really want to know?" Well, my answer is yes. I don't want to be a blind-follower Christian. If God is real, then I want to know for sure!
I recommend approaching it like that. It let's your spouse see that you are truly searching for answers. The truth is all we really want, and we can't use a 3000 year-old book to do it. We need real answers, not mythology.
Be sure to talk about it a lot, and be open minded to your spouse's point of view. Let them know you still care for them deeply.
This sub-reddit has been so helpful and caring, so good job starting here. Also grab some books or find some web-sites that discus these things. Here are a few I recommend:
Sites
Books
Cheers
~Nate
When I initially came out, I was religious (Lutheran), and I actually came out with the help of my campus pastor in our Lutheran Student Community. I continued active participation in my religious community, and most of my pastors after that time were aware of my identity, so don't ever feel as if there's no place for you in religious communities. In the US, at least, mainline protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican/Episocopal, Presbyterian, UCC) often tend to be much more accepting than so-called "nondenominational" or Evangelical churches, but there aren't hard and fast guarantees.
(Just as full disclosure, I'm no longer religious, but it has nothing to do with my coming out, and much more to do with other philosophical changes and ideas.)
There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, so I really don't feel the need to repeat it. I do, however, want to share few resources that might be helpful:
In your situation, I understand it may be hard to get these books or read them, but if you can do so privately and safely, I'd highly recommend them as avenues for exploring your identity and giving you a theological and philosophical frame to think about your identity from. I'm not sure if you're worried about disapproval or punishment from divine or human sources when you say, "I'm afraid my own religion will punish me for something that I can't control," but in either case, you may find these helpful.
Most people on this sub—perhaps the most vocal ones—have left all religion behind. I think it's easy to feel burned by the high-demand religion of Mormonism and not have a desire to find a new one.
For myself, I have been attending the United Church of Christ and consider myself a sort of secular Christian. I don't read the Bible literally but see in it valuable metaphorical stories for human nature and humanities relationship with the Divine. I don't really have a definition for what the Divine is other than that plane of reality in which we and the universe have our being. I don't believe that Christianity is the only true religion; I believe a plurality of spiritual traditions that teach the principles of compassion represent different cultural responses to this concept of divinity.
If you are truly interested in the questions you asked today and yesterday, I highly recommend you read Jana Riess's, The Next Mormons. She talks about generational differences in how believing and non-believing members relate to Mormonism. She covers the questions you have asked with actual social scientific data. I think you would really enjoy it.
I addressed a similar question in another thread yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ccvth7/byu_breaks_shelves/etqbm9x
I'm a little late to the party, but I just thought I'd add my voice.
There are a couple things I would like to say. I'm sure none of it hasn't already been said somewhere here, but I'll just repeat for emphasis.
First of all, hi! And welcome. I'm sure you are feeling so confused and overwhelmed right now. That's okay. There's a lot to take in and consider. Take your time, go at your own pace, and make sure that wherever you end up is a place that is right for you. It's important to always consider what others have to say but that doesn't mean you have to follow what they say. You make your decisions and you determine your path.
If this road you are taking brings you to atheism (or anything unacceptable to your family and/or friends) you do not have to come out before you are ready. Depending on your situation it could be very detrimental to do so before the time is right. If someone will do wrong by you if they know the truth, then you are by no means obligated to give them the truth. And when the right time is, only you can say. Others may be able to help you with it, but when it comes down to it, it is your life and your decision.
And, again, if you eventually begin to identify as an atheist it is possible, and maybe even probable that you will feel angry. Many of us have been through it, or still are going through it. Angry about things that are happening around the world today and angry about things from your upbringing. That is okay too. There are many things we should be angry about. Just don't let that anger consume you. And be sure to still be reasonable. Anger can be a good thing when placed appropriately and if it's kept in perspective. It's a hard field to navigate but you'll figure it out with time and experience.
Don't get so caught up in one worldview that you are stuck in an echo chamber, never exposed to differing thoughts and opinions. Keep an open mind and don't shut things out simply because you don't want to change your opinion or are so convinced of something that you think there's no chance you could ever be wrong. This really applies to everything in life...not just religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I wanted to address you personally, rather than discuss the beliefs because I'm sure you have been given so much to consider and read already. It is likely that everything I have to suggest has already been mentioned, but:
I could go on, but this post is already so much longer than I intended. So I'll just end on this note: things might look pretty frightening and overwhelming right now, but don't let it scare you off. There is no better feeling than learning and coming to your own conclusions about who you are and what you believe. Especially if you've had those things decided for you your entire life. If you ever need help or have questions, come here. There are many of us who are more than willing to do what we can to help.
Good luck! :)
Perhaps it's time to move away from LDS specific arguments, and start questioning the God concept in general; especially as it relates to morality.
One argument I've always liked, is that even if there is a god, by far the strongest test of morality it could ask for is if a person will be moral while believing there is no such being, and no promise of reward or punishment.
If she is willing to read, I recommend the following:
YouTube is also a fantastic resource. Here are some of the video series that I found particularly convincing as I was going through my own transition:
I think it's also important to remember that there is are alternative worldviews out there which are not based on religion, which are just as rewarding and fulfilling, if not more so. Here are a few videos that have sparked that sense of wonder and that I used to associate with the spirit. Most of these are not direct attacks on religion, but rather are just inspiring ideas from a secular\scientific worldview. I recognize that these may not have universal appeal, but they spoke to me, and may do so for you and your wife as well:
>it's just surreal that the natives of this land only gained the right to vote in it less than one century ago and it's kind of sickening to think about how archaic this time is.
I don't want to look like I'm forming a pity party, but the Civil Rights Movement didn't really help out Indian Country. We had to have our own round of protests and fighting in the 1970s. Check out the American Indian Movement, the Occupation of Alcatraz Island and especially the Alcatraz Proclamation, among others. What really stunning is that the American Indian Religious Freedom Act didn't come about until 1978, let alone the fact that they had to pass it at all!
>Are there any books, movies, or another form of media that are true stories or realistic fiction that depict American Indians in a way that you find to be interesting and faithful?
Anything by Vine Deloria, Jr. is awesome, although he is more historian and scientist than he is story-teller. A short list of my favorites:
If you want to read some great fiction that depicts American Indians accurately, start with Sherman Alexie:
Outside of those authors, some popular picks are Black Elk Speaks and Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee.
As far as movies go, any self-respecting Indian has seen the movie Smoke Signals dozens of times. Powwow Highway is a favorite of mine, and Dance Me Outside is movie gold, although it doesn't get enough attention.
>I'm thinking - why hasn't HBO or some big network done a drama that focuses on American Indians? This could be a very interesting book, as well... Or is this idea something even somewhat appealing to you as a young American Indian?
I'm not sure what you are thinking, but I have my own ideas. I'd like to see a series that focuses on a single reservation for each episode, and details the hardships that the people of that reservation deal with on a daily basis. Call it a pity party, but there are children in the United States right now that live in houses with dirt floors and sleep on pallets and go to school on 30-year-old school buses on unkempt dirt roads (and sometimes off-road) where they learn a curriculum outdated for a decade or more........ I can go on and on. Get in your car and drive to Pine Ridge Reservation RIGHT NOW, you'll be convinced that you walked into a third world country in the middle of a war. Its not pretty. The corruption in the tribal government needs to be put in the spotlight, and the part that the Federal and State governments have played in this tragedy need to be righted. That's the facts.
Hey, Seth!
It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot, and what you’re feeling about it is entirely normal. I’m not surprised you’re exhausted and overwhelmed. Anyone would be. I’m glad your boyfriend has your back, and I hope he can find ways to support you even when you’re apart.
I’m not sure I’d use the word “accepting” to describe your mom, but yes, she could be worse. She and her boyfriend do not understand being transgender at all (like most people), and their views on your maleness are completely worthless. You’re a man. Period. Your life may have followed a different path than the rest of the boys, but that doesn’t invalidate who you are. Never forget that. It’s what keeps you going through all the hard times.
I could probably dig up more resources if you want them, but here’s two I’ll suggest right now.
This is a free pdf meant for parents and family that covers basic trans stuff. You might also look to see if there’s a PFLAG chapter in your area.
https://pflag.org/sites/default/files/Our%20Trans%20Loved%20Ones.pdf
Since you’re dealing with religious folks, this book might also be useful: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians, by Austin Hartke. Hartke is a trans man, and his book is an excellent introduction to trans stuff and a debunking of common “biblical” arguments against being transgender.
https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100
Oh, and if you need something fun and like teen superhero fiction, April Daniel’s Dreadnought is a good read. It’s main character is a trans girl, unfortunately (from a trans guy perspective), but I found reading it very cathartic.
hugs
It’ll get better. The first few days are a shock and a whirlwind. It’s big and scary and unknown. It’s ok and normal to feel overwhelmed. But you’ve got this, and you’re a stronger man than you realize.
I’m always happy to talk, listen, swap stories, whatever, if it’ll help. PM anytime, and good luck, brother.
I know you submitted this post about a month ago, but I might as well give you some advice, since I went through something very similar at the start of my college years.
I suggest acquiring some good reading material and passing these books around your family to help them better understand your perspective and same-sex relationships in general. The book that I appreciated reading the most at the time of my coming out was What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality by Daniel Helminiak. It helped my entire family understand what I was going through, and it cleared up a few misconceptions that they had about the gay "lifestyle."
There are a plethora of other books out there if that one doesn't do the trick. I hope you find peace of mind and spirit. God Bless.
I don't have a good recommendation for you that's exactly what you are asking for. Instead let me recommend a book that I think would be a very good fit for a study of college age young men: Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality by Wesley Hill (incidentally a college friend of mine).
While this book obviously looks at the challenges of celibate Christian sexuality from in the context of homosexuality, I think this would work well for your group. Here's why:
Hey! Hope you are having a good day!
Here are a few resources specifically on same sex relationships that have helped me in my journey...
Internet articles:
https://www.livingout.org/what-s-wrong-with-a-permanent-faithful-stable-same-sex-sexual-relationship
https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-idol-behind-same-sex-desires
https://www.google.com/amp/s/torreygazette.com/blog/2015/10/26/on-my-struggle-with-homosexuality%3fformat=amp
Book and website:
I respect Sam and the path that he walks. He also has a big heart, this book that he wrote helped me greatly...so did the site livingout.com...
https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3BRI5F09H4J8N&keywords=is+god+anti-gay+by+sam+allberry&qid=1557255221&s=gateway&sprefix=is+god%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-1
And what also has helped me is learning how God created women...my mind was twisted with misunderstood scriptures and opinions from others...also, the church and the world stereotype gender so terribly, realizing this has helped me and I had too do some deep soul searching and ask myself some hard questions.
Good luck to you, please feel free to ask questions if you have any. Walking through this can feel lonely, it's good to have someone who is safe to bounce thoughts, ideas and feelings off of. 😉 May you have a great rest of the week!
Yeah, that’s a really tough situation. It’s really courageous that you came out to him, and you should be proud of that no matter what happens.
When I came out as gay to my parents, it took a really long time for them to process it — like years. They needed space. If they had tried to process it with me around, things probably would have blown up more often than it did (which is more than I wanted anyway...). I’m convinced that they’ve had pretty bad influences. My mom’s on staff at a Southern Baptist church, and my dad’s pretty conservative as well. They didn’t try to push anything on me though. An “agreed to disagree” situation has been the equilibrium state. While how they treat me is undoubtedly a function of what they believe, just getting used to things has improved how they treat me as well, despite no change in beliefs.
Have you looked at the resources in the FAQ here or over in /r/TransChristianity? I’m honestly unfamiliar with any resources designed specifically for parents. I just finished Austen Hartke’s Transforming, which I believe would be a great intro for Christians with limited or misguided opinions on trans issues.
It's not about disagreeing; it's about minimizing — and not allowing people to minimize — the effects of discrimination. I could tell you in detail how the emotional triggers from past traumas all buzz when a homophobe confronts me by first doing something offensive and then minimizing what I'm going through, but to someone who's already been taken by the anti-LGBT illusion that harmless things are mislabeled as homophobia — which you sound like you have — those efforts are sure to be wasted. So instead I invite you to try and empathize by putting yourself in our place for real, like Timothy Kurek did. He's written a book and given a TEDx Talk and all.
What he did is: he pretended to be gay for a year. Came out, cried and everything. Lost his friends, got shunned by his family, all the while enduring the occasional judgemental look and toxic remark here and there made by people who were not in his shoes or willing to hear him out for that matter. Really, you should try it. It's fun.
And by fun, I mean jokes. Malicious jokes. Jokes told by people who didn't want to be vocal about what they thought because they knew what they thought was discriminatorily demeaning, so they resorted to jokes as a way out of being exposed for their hate. It's pretty easy to imagine he heard stuff so many of us have heard, like: "Oh but that was just a j— I'm k— Look you should try and be a good sport about it, you know. Don't take this so seriously. Good God, you gay guys are all like, THAT'S HOMOPHOBIA I FEEL SO VERY ATTACKED RIGHT NOW— Just chill and take a goddamn joke already, alright."
Also, a talk on how the little everyday expressions of homophobia are not so little by Panti Bliss.
Also, a talk on how homophobes try desperately to turn the tables and make themselves the victims of LGBT oppressors, also by Panti. She's a very eloquent speaker and beautifully put in words a lot of things I had been feeling and thinking without the precise vocabulary.
Before you get to all that, a quicker demonstration would be to imagine what it would be like if you put yourself in our shoes like Kurek did. You could picture in your mind a world in which you're part of the minority. In that scenario, either you're an LGBT individual and the world is like the real world, or you're cishet and the world is all reversed and anti-cishet. You seem to be cishet yourself, so I recommend the latter as in my experience it's been the more efficient choice — it's easier to grasp the idea of a reversed world than it is to conceive a reversed self, regarding gender and/or sexual orientation.
So in that world that oppresses cishets, you face all the little everyday expressions of cishetphobia just by being yourself, i.e. the actual you from outside the simulation. And you want to be vocal about how you feel wronged and treated like a second-class citizen. You're denied service, it's harder for you to get and maintain a job, your family hates you and has kicked you out, your church if you go to one has tried to exorcise the cishet out of you, and so on. And the very people who do those things to you, your friends and family, they minimize them. But they don't stop there, oh no. They also convince other people, people who are not your direct oppressors, that being vocal about those little everyday expressions of cishetphobia is making a fuss and bullying people into the pro-cishet bandwagon. Isn't it obvious that this is a con, though?
Seriously: come out and lookout for the difference in treatment.
Bsp Barron says that during times of hardship we should “hunker down,” to keep the faith alive. He cites John Paul II as an example of this where, as a younger man, Wojtyla kept himself hidden from Communist oppression, studying the faith intensively, thus allowing him to bring it back to people later in life as Pope. Without that period of hiding, Wojtyla may never have become Pope.
We may be so inclined to do the same again. In this period of modern spiritual and social anxiety, an “Anxious Age” in a Post-Protestant America, we may indeed again might have to hunker-down to keep the faith alive, allowing us to bring it back to the world when time permits. Or perhaps we could take the “Benedict Option” approach by simply retreating into our own self-sustaining communities of faith - something the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, and even Mormons have accomplished quite well. In self-isolation, these groups are able to maintain identity against a hyper-liberalized consumer culture which tells us that religion “can be whatever you want.” They maintain their sense of purpose by leaving those who have none.
Of course, that’s an extreme. But it’s something to consider.
That being said, we must remember that this spiritual anxiety has very much been caused not because we, as a society, have intellectually “outgrown God,” as many modern secular thinkers posit, like Steven Pinker or Yuval Harari. Rather, it is that a sense of language, a language that allowed us to discuss and believe in the transcendent. has been lost in the wake of modernity. Hyper-liberalism, with its mixing of a consumer lead culture and a focus on the needs of the individual above all else, along with the denial of the value of authority (especially so as it relates to the church) has bred an extreme relativism that would be unthinkable several decades ago.
When we read the words of the spiritually drifting Nones who make up so much of our generation, we do not find individuals who are extremely well educated about religion, philosophy, history or science. They are in many respects simply basic with their understanding of the world in that they are not extraordinarily well educated about any particular subject as it relates to the faith. Many millennial Christians themselves espouse outright heresy, though it’s usually inadvertent.
We are not dealing with some sort of grand atheistic intellectual movement in the halls of American high schools and colleges. It’s not as though such students are all huddling together sharing essays from David Hume, since the majority don’t even know his name. They are spiritually lost because of ignorance, and because of cultural reasons, like the increasing rates of religious and ethnic diversity which pressure us when it comes to stating objective truths (since sharing the Gospel as a factual reality would make our non-Christian neighbor uncomfortable). It is our job to “re-educate” our peers on Mere Christianity. No one else will do it.
It’ll be hard struggle.
I really admire what they're doing. Debt and poverty are difficult problems, because while on the surface they appear to be strictly a lack of material resources, in truth they're often also grounded social/personal/pyschological issues, and material poverty is merely a symptom or indicator. I read a book a few weeks ago called "When Helping Hurts - How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor or Yourself", and it went very in-depth into why strictly material approaches ("this person/organization is short on cash: give them cash") rarely work in the long-term, and how true long-term change requires a change of thinking and lifestyle, which is much more difficult, though doable with commitment and time. Often "stop the bleeding/poverty alleviation" efforts, such as after Hurricane Katrina or Haiti, are done with good intentions, but end up causing more harm in the long-term than they do good.
The book is written from a Christian standpoint/worldview, but much of the content applies to non-religious charitable giving, charity work, and NGO relief efforts as well.
That being said, I do admire and appreciate what this group is doing, sort of spontaneous gifts of debt relief, and it's encouraging to see. Here's hoping there are more who will follow their aspirations!
Hey, if you've got the skill, maybe construction would be great!! I think I'll make an updated suggestion... and that is to not go where you think they're lacking numbers; rather, go where you're skills contribute the best.
And to you're second point - yes, you're definitely on point which is great. You're being very cognizant and thoughtful of the population you're trying to serve. The idea you're bringing up has been a common complaint in development work for years now. Don't know if you ascribe to a particular faith, but When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert is a wonderful book that would address many of your concerns. It is written from a Christian perspective so bear that in mind if that does not interest you. There are so many other great resources though that are secular that point to the same ideas. There are ways to make a short-term mission valuable/helpful, and maintain the dignity of everyone involved! I can dig around for them when I'm at home if you'd like?
I am sorry. I wish I could understand, but I don't either. The only thing I can offer to maybe help is some reading suggestions. I would highly recommend reading Wesley Hill. His book, Washed and Waiting, is great and talks a lot about his struggles as a celibate gay Christian man. His work has really blessed me. Also, Spiritual Friendship is similar and goes into a what friendship can and should be.
I hope that God might speak to you through these books.
Books
Reading the Bible Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg. This is a good place to start learning a Christian approach to the Bible that doesn't assume inerrancy.
Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright. Wright offers a hopeful eschatology that stands in stark contrast to the "Left Behind"/dispensationalist eschatology that the evangelical church has widely embraced.
Jesus Wants to Save Christians by Rob Bell and Don Golden. Bell and Golden tell the large story of the Bible and reveal the social vision and mission of the God of the oppressed.
Proclaiming the Scandal of the Cross by Mark Baker. Baker offers a collection of essays written by different pastors and theologians on the subject of the atonement. This would be a great place to start understanding the atonement outside of penal satisfaction theory.
The Prodigal God by Tim Keller. This is the best thing I've ever read on the Prodigal Son/Parable of the Two Sons. He is Reformed though.
Whose Afraid of Postmodernism? by James K.A. Smith. This is a good introduction to postmodernism for church people (one that doesn't caricature and demonize Derrida, Lyotard, and Foucault) .
Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus by Ann Spangler. A great crash course in the Jewishness of Jesus.
Podcasts
I regularly listen to the podcast from Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, Michigan featuring pastors Shane Hipps and Rob Bell (I know he's infamous in evangelical circles, but give him a chance and decide for yourself if he's a heretic).
I love the Mennonites. I get my regular Mennonite fix from Trinity Mennonite Church. Their sermon podcast can be found here.
__
The OpenYale introductions to the Old and New Testament are phenomenal. If you want a look at how some of the best scholarship approaches the text, check them out.
HAPPY HAPPY CAKE DAY!
BONUS. Off your High Priority wishlist, the thing that sticks out the most to me, because I'm a war buff, was THIS. Though peronsally, I'd probably grab THIS above the rest.
The Bruised Reed by Richard Sibbes
> 'I shall never cease to be grateful to...Richard Sibbes who was balm to my soul at a period in my life when I was overworked and badly overtired, and therefore subject in an unusual manner to the onslaughts of the devil...I found at that time that Richard Sibbes, who was known in London in the early seventeenth century as "The Heavenly Doctor Sibbes" was an unfailing remedy...The Bruised Reed.. quieted, soothed, comforted, encouraged and healed me.' --D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones
The bruised reed and the smoldering wick. What you are experiencing is something that Christians large and small face at times in their life. There are those early days when the flame of our passion and zeal is strongly burning and there are days where it seems to be barely lit.
This book provides excellent insight into those lower times. It's gentle words are a good reminder for the professed Christian to move forward and thoughts around how to do that.
In reading this book I was sorely disappointed that I didn't read this earlier in my Christian walk. It is currently a help and will continue to be so in the future. Good words to meditate on throughout the day.
Of additional recommended reading materials (along with scripture) this would rank in my top 5.
Two well-argued pieces by gay Christians at http://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php. One believes in marriage, one in mandatory celibacy, but the important thing is that they're both sincere gay Christians.
And hopefully you'll read God and the Gay Christian.
But don't stick to reading webpages and books. Get into an a supportive church of flesh-and-blood Christians.
Then give yourself time to process the thoughts and pray. You'll be OK. God bless you!
To /u/Catholic_Dad: As another gay catholic man, this is really a fantastic response that hits all the important points. I came here to make my own post summarizing it all, but /u/fulltimeguy really hit the nail on the head.
If you want some other resources to share with your son or to look at yourself, here's the list that I often send to people facing this issue (some of these aren't specifically Catholic, but are Christian and hold to the conservative sexual ethic):
Also, as another user posted, Fr. Martin's Building a Bridge has some pretty good points on how to start having conversations about this. I particularly recommend this one for you to read, though not necessarily your son at this point.
Edit: You could also check out EnCourage, which is a catholic group for parents/family of lgbt people. It's a companion program to Courage, which is for the lgbt people, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend Courage for your son at this point - it's really more oriented towards adults, especially those who have lived/are living a sexually active life with members of the same sex.
I definitely recommend that you start reading /r/exmormon/ if you aren't already. And here is the recommended reading list for that sub.
I also recommend the following:
Should be plenty to get you started. :)
I don't want to be 'that' guy, however you cannot scripturally justify engaging in same-sex relationships and sex.
I am a bisexual teenage Anglican like yourself. It is important to note that same-sex feelings are OK. They are not a sin, nor evil. But engaging with those feelings is a sin and cannot be scripturally justified. It's these reasons why I remain celibate, and don't allow my same-sex feelings to control me or define me: those thoughts come, and I let them go.
Is it the worst sin? No, it's not. But by having a same-sex relationship, you are engaging in sin; no amount of 'Jesus loves me!' can change that. Jesus does love you. God loves you; you are a son of God like anyone else. But like any Father, our Father in Heaven has rules, expectations and guidelines; when we stray from this, and start to say 'It's okay, he loves me!' although you're right, you're also justifying something contrary to the word of God.
Sam Allberry, a gay Pastor, did a much better job explaining this than I ever could in his book - 'Is God Anti Gay?'. It's a little book, but you can buy it here. He speaks about his personal experience, how to approach this issue as a Christian, and speaks directly to people like yourself who think it's Biblically OK. Fantastic book.
I am a PK myself, my parents took the route love the sinner hate the sin, don't ask don't tell. They pray that I will change all the time ad make indirect comments concerning faith. I would read Justin Lee's book and Matthew Vine's book below. Both deal with coming out as a christian in a very conservative environment. You need support as well, while I don't login much anymore gaychristian.net is a message board to talk to others with similar experiences and the documentary is great below. Dr. Brownson's Book and videos are great for a deep dive into theology. Your parents may not accept you, or worse kick you out, you know them better than I do. Some stay closeted till they are independent. You need to talk to them from a position of knowledge (Resources) and stability / strength.... you can simply choose to love them with boundaries and finding a place to be yourself (this probably involved moving out). Gay Christian Network has a conference in Texas coming up and if you cannot make it, they will live-stream the speaker for latter reference. Finally I would get therapy to deal with this as it can effect your mental health and well being. Free Counseling is offered at colleges and discounted (sliding scale) therapy is offered through therapists who can be found at LGBTQ centers. Talkspace is a app for $100 unlimited a month if you need a therapist to video/call/text on your phone.
{Documentary}_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImNx1JA3BI - Documentary on Being Gay and Christian (experiences)
{Deep Dive into Bible Verses - Theology}__
Matthew Vine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZgSHK6tdA
Dr. James Brownson (Deep Dive Theology)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1f0KD-B0Z8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKOTNneoOpU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kONByDAXko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt-a0BiAEVs
{Videos}___
http://new.livestream.com/GCNconf - Speakers Keynotes from Gay Christian Network Conference 1,500 Attendees
https://www.youtube.com/user/GayChristianNetwork - Videos why its ok to be gay and christian
{Books}_
http://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306 - Justin Lee (biography about being gay and christian)
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2 - Matthew Vines
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gender-Sexuality-Reframing-Relationships/dp/0802868630 - Dr. James Brownson (deep dive theology)
{Forum / Gay Christian Message Board}
http://www.gaychristian.net
{Find a Gay Affirming Church}____
http://www.gaychurch.org
I have a suggestion for you then: read (normally archaeological) works about the civilizations that lived before, not the interactions with Europeans. This stuff is way, way more interesting that you would think, especially since the cultural differences are sometimes enormous. Reading some anthropology papers are also more interesting, and I'll put some links there, too; usually western history books gloss over these societies and make them out to be really insignificant, and that can't be further from the truth. Some non-historical texts can be just an important to lend an understanding of a very different culture (Wisdom Sits in Places and God is Red are really good examples of this; place and time are thought of very differently in many indigenous American societies, which puts a lot into perspective).
Here's a good reading list for you:
Medeival Mississippians
[An Iroquoian case study by Bruce Trigger] (https://books.google.com/books?id=MpJOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=maintaining+economic+equality+in+opposition+to+complexity:+an+Iroquoian+case+study&source=bl&ots=ZlY1S6JABK&sig=rZD4WxfM_CVIKwZ7SAeyJeR80gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMvKTXv9nUAhWIMyYKHaqMBDsQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=maintaining%20economic%20equality%20in%20opposition%20to%20complexity%3A%20an%20Iroquoian%20case%20study&f=false) about Iroquoian culture using historical texts, which was really interesting. They had a totally gift-based economy, worth reading this; in this link it seems to be readable for free from Google books
In search of Chaco
Everything you know about Indians is wrong
Wisdom Sits in Places
God is Red
Just write a Christian book about it:
"Farting Against Church Windows - A Sinner's Struggle With Love, Grace, and Postmodern Architecture."
With one of these cheesy covers, of course. That seems to get better in the US (random example), but over here in Germany several publishers still try to make me not read their books due to cover design nausea.
Cover design nausea.
That would be a neat Christianese™ term.
Example: Hey X, have you read that new blessed book by Max Lucado/Anselm Grün/John Eldredge yet? I really felt the Lord speaking to me, and it was a blessing to lift my heart up in silent time afterwards. - Uh, well... I tried, but I got a severe case of Cover Design Nausea in the bookstore.
>Can I still be a Christian and be transgender and queer?
YES! There are thousands of us all across the globe, you are definately not alone, sis. Here's a great book you should check out, https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100
>To be honest I feel like God doesn’t accept me if for feeling this way :(
You feel that way because it looks like the only thing you have ever been taught. Hang around here more, and over on r/OpenChristian, meet and get to know other queer Christians. We've got a discord link around here and there somewhere. Also, head over to https://gaychurch.org , and find an affirming church near you, support and fellowship is crucial as well.
Like yourself, I am an ally. I, too, found it to be a huge weight in my attempt to "be a good Christian" and also recognize that homosexuality is not a sin. I'm a feminist as well, but because I haven't done my Bible research yet regarding feminism, I'm going to keep to my own experience with homosexuality and the like.
From my own my own experiences, I feel that you have two major options in order to reconcile your faith and your convictions - two options in which God will support you and guide you in whatever you choose.
The first might be to find another church, another denomination, or both. Some churches still oppose homosexuality, but are much less aggressive, meaning that you get the occasional "homosexuality is a sin," but who are much more respectful of it. This is the type of church I attend. And while their stance is annoying, they actually manage to discuss it in a loving manner so that I can tolerate it. There are also churches who are completely open to the LGBT community. Times are changing, albeit slowly.
Your second option, and probably the most terrifying one, would be to "come out" to your community. One of the problems (IMO) with the "homosexuality is a sin" stance is that they don't know any better! Some people have lived in this bubble all their life. They don't know any differently, and haven't heard the Biblically sound evidence that it isn't wrong. You don't have to start protesting sermons or get a soapbox. But it could start with "I don't agree with that, can we please stop talking about it?" A simple phrase like this almost sounds like you aren't helping by not talking about it, but it can begin to open their hearts and minds to the idea of questions and discussion. In this scenario, knowledge is power; I've suggested this book before, and I'll suggest it again. By knowing and confirming your own beliefs on a very fundamental and Biblical level, I think it will help you navigate any discussion regarding the LGBT community and their place in the church.
You sound like you have some serious cognitive dissonance going on right now.
Talking about it with the Internet is a great first step. It shows that you're looking for help and want to make a change. But /r/askgaybros is not going to be enough all by itself. You need to do some serious thinking and evaluate your three options for ending the dissonance: (1) to prioritize God over your own happiness, (2) to prioritize happiness over religious dogma, (3) to change your conception of God and/or your own gay identity so that they are no longer in conflict.
This will not be easy. None of those options will feel "authentic" or "right" at first. (1), in particular, has serious shortcomings and will probably endanger your long-term mental health. (2) is slightly less dangerous but will be very, very hard in the short term.
My advice: pursue (3) for now. Talk to a gay-affirming Christian therapist. Talk to your "this guy" with whom you're falling in love. Talk to your parents. And then listen. Notice how all of these people still love you and think you're valuable and loveable and a good person.
If you want a more Bible-based approach to (3), pick up one of the many, many books out there about homosexuality and the Bible. (I bought this one, about 4 years after when I most needed it.)
And of course, if you fail to find a way to let yourself be happy by pursuing (3), pick a point at which you'll cut your losses and choose (2).
I know. I know you didn't mean it like that. Or, at least, I'm trying to know that--but, you know, after years of bigots and the ignorant proclaiming that the QUILTBAG community is dragging everyone down a rainbow-bricked road to hell, where we're blamed for hurricanes, and 9/11, and Boston, and the like, it's hard not to see that first paragraph and be, well, a little bitter?
Before I came out to my mom, on separate occasions, she told me that two things were American problems that never happened in the old country: serial killings, and gays. Never mind the fact that she was wrong on both counts. Just comparing the two, and terming them both as problems?
I'm pretty sure my mom doesn't think my preference for the company of men is as bad as if, say, I started murdering people en mass in real life. I'm pretty sure she doesn't even really remember saying those things, given that they were at least a decade and a half ago.
But I remember.
I'm not saying this to discount your... evolution on this matter. I'm glad that there are more people coming around on this, understanding that the extent of our gay agenda is generally no different from anyone's normal day or their hopes and dreams. I just wish there weren't comparisons with more horrible things out there.
Anyway, I don't know if you're one of faith (I'm not), but there have been some interesting books of late trying to bridge Christianity, well-known for its hatred of the queer community (perhaps not completely intentionally), which I think might be of interest to you?
-Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate by Justin Lee. I don't think his theology requires as much gymnastics as some other modern interpretations, but I find myself still not being able to really understand why he wants to hold so fast to it.
-The Cross in the Closet by Timothy Kurek. He's the one with the Indiegogo campaign from a while back, pretty much doing Black Like Me or Self-Made Man, only as a gay person. It has all the flavor of being a witness, which again, completely escapes my grasp, but.
-Does Jesus Really Love Me? by Jeff Chu. I think he's far, far too gentle on some of the more odious sects, and far, far, far too harsh on those that decided to leave the faith. But it's an interesting journey, nonetheless.
Could I recommend two books to you? One is by a devout Catholic (and former long-time political blogger, former editor of The New Republic) Andrew Sullivan. In his book Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality he discusses at length what he calls the prohibitionist view, which is his classification for most of the religious statements and philosophy on human sexuality as regards gay people. As a kid (well young 20-something) from a religious background (Lutheran) who was coming out as gay, it was one of the most influential books I have read in my entire life. It was quite literally life-changing in the way I thought about myself. In spite of it being 20 years old, it really holds up, and it's one of the best serious texts dealing with the matter of how society regards gay people and our relationships.
Another really good book is What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality which is written by a now-former Catholic Priest (he was still a member of the clergy when he initially wrote the book). It talks about the biblical verses (the so-called "clobber passages") that are often cited against gay people and tries to frame them in a social and cultural context (as well as a linguistic one) for the time they were written. This has less bearing on the natural law arguments which the Catholic church makes, but it's not without bearing, either. And it's not as if the Church has never changed elements of its moral philosophy over time. I'm aware that matters of
Doctrine^^EDIT: dogma are not up for debate or change, but the statements on human sexuality, as far as I am aware, do not fall into that category.------------------------------------------
> All that's a round about way of saying, we don't say that to try and hurt people, we do it because we think we are helping people. Now, maybe we are all wrong, but none of our criticism comes from a place of malice.
I will say that for a large number of Catholics, this is almost certainly true, but I think you would be hard pressed to deny that there are a great many religious people and prominent leaders, including Catholics, with a lot of animus for gay people, whose actions do not convey so much as a modicum of "love" or a tiny glimmer of "care". It's not a majority of Catholics, at least not in the US, as a majority of Catholics in the US are supportive of marriage equality and have been for about half a decade, now. But there's definitely a significant plurality that cannot be ignored.
> Christ never got involved in politics. And "Christians" (or people claiming to be) today are destroying our reputation by doing so. It is time Christians listen to their own advice and read the bible.
I feel that this illustrates a great misconception within the Christian community regarding what does and does not constitute legitimate political activity. Insofar as Christ interacted with and even brought criticism to loci of socioeconomic power in his milieu, insofar as Christ sought to not only instruct but influence the behavior of others (either individually or as a group), he was most certainly involved in politics. What Christ was not involved in was political gerrymandering or ladder climbing, and it is this specific variety of political activity where Christians today often part ways with Jesus's approach. Indeed, Christ repeatedly emphasized that his Kingdom was "not of this world," that he would not introduce the Kingdom of God vis-a-vis an overthrow of Roman authority as so many expected the Messiah to accomplish--often to the chagrin of his closest followers.
Christians need to recover a better, broader sense of legitimate political action. Not only is fixation upon leveraging the highest echelons of political power different than Christ's approach, it's much less interesting and much less effective at promoting lasting change than the spectrum of other political activity available to us. We get distracted by the misbelief that we can alter people's hearts and minds by legislatively shifting society in a more "Christian" direction. We forget that we are called to be salt (a preserving agent) and light (a clarifying, hope-inducing) agent to our world by following the even more revolutionary path Christ himself tred.
I believe that as followers of Messiah, we are most certainly called to political action--just not the sort of political action for which we are unfortunately known. Great examples of contemporary theological reflection on this point include the following, to name a few:
You are created by God in his image and loved just the way you are. He created everything about you: your thoughts, your doubts, and your feelings on who you love. :)
This book really helped me when I was younger, and I highly recommend it.
Congratulations! I know what a big step that is, as I've been in the same boat. Books are the best way to become informed. Check out books by:
Also check out the video series Why I am no longer a creationist.
The more you know, the more confident you will be.
Great band, great lyrics.
You might want to read "Is belief in God good, bad, or irrelevant", a collection of correspondence between Greg and a pastor. They discuss some pretty interesting topics.
I don't know if Dawkins "saved" me entirely, I think I had already converted before I read his works, but he certainly helped strengthen my convictions. I also have to give immense credit to Christopher Hitchens! He is the most painfully articulate voice for atheism I have ever heard, I could listen to him debate all day. His book is a must read. What I enjoyed most about it was it's historical information which was fascinating, the book has an entire chapter which discusses "Why heaven hates ham".
That's a long winded answer. Read Francis Schaeffer's book, this one. And also people that claim to be Christians don't act like it. They get a tiny bit of pressure and get worried that they will be judging or hypocritical if they go against the flow. Take the idiot husband and wife on "Brother, Husband" which is a polygamist family. His best friend came to the conclusion that he loved his best friends wife. So he came clean. And instead of manning up and telling him to get lost, he talked to his wife, and they are now polygamist.
If your goal is to do something about it, then I would suggest two things. Raising awareness of the issues, and praying for revival. We need one in the US like it's life and death, because this is the best life a lot of folks are going to know if we don't reach them.
If they would be receptive to something written by an evangelical biblical scholar who is gay, I recommend God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines. http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
He tells his personal story AND addresses all the biblical texts that have been used against gay people. He makes a very convincing case for an inclusive and affirming faith that's based in scripture. He also gives a compassionate account of his father's experience of coming to accept him as a gay Christian.
If by "media", you mean, "reddit", then you might be right. I also listen to talk radio all the time (weird obsession), so Beck and Rush do a good job of convincing me themselves.
I actually agree with the tea baggers primary concerns, especially fiscally and constitutionally. I think free markets should be regulated for MORAL and ETHICAL reasons, and to promote financial STABILITY; but other than that...yup, more responsible, more state rights, ethical capitalism.
They're still dominated by religious nutters, though. Every major movement in the republican party since the Reagan era has been driven by religious fundamentalists and talk show hosts.
As for governing my speach; whatever....whatever, I do what I want! This is America, and if you don't like it you can get out! I think you take my comments to seriously; do your own damn research.
Here's a few books I've found informative:
Karen Armstrong's The Battle For God
The Culture Wars
Frank Schaeffer's Crazy For God
Francis Shaeffer's How Should We then Live?
When Jesus speaks of treating your neighbors with respect, he means your peers. People like you.
Jesus's word is intended to separate families and turn them against each other. You should not accept people who believe in other Gods or no Gods. If you do, you will lose your chance to enter heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Jesus doesn't care about foreigners/non-believers.
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This is made even more clear when he refused to heal a woman of Canann until she agreed with his assertion that she was a dog and belittled herself before him.
15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
All quotes are from Matthew, one of the four pillars of Christianity.
Despite the fact that your version of Christianity is far more accepting, and in my opinion superior, you are the one who is "Christian". It's difficult, if not impossible to be a good Christian without deviating from how the Bible indicates we should behave. It's how we end up with books like this.
Edit: Formatting.
> are there any books written from a Christian point of view that don't make us look like complete idiots even when read from an atheist point of view?
I cannot recall any of the top of my head.
>Also if you have any book recommendations that will help a Christian understand atheism then it'd be a appreciated.
God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens is the best introduction to atheism I've read.
> I've had spiritual experiences I believe are from God, so in a way, yes.
but you've never met him. the answer is no
> I've never met President Obama. Should I believe he doesn't exist? That's your best evidence?
neither have I but others have and we can prove his existence. are you trolling?
> I'll agree with the ones other than Christianity that I've researched.
ah, so you are an atheists towards other gods.
> Can you provide what convinces you of this in regards to Christianity?
this is going to require some research and time which sadly I dont think you'll do. but here are a few. I could go on and on and on if you'd like.
this, this, this, this, this, this
I follow the words of the great Prophet Harris (Peace be upon Him). But I have great respect for followers of Dawkins, for they are people of the book.
Also, check out /r/thepuritans for some good quotes. I haven't posted much recently, but the archive is full of some good stuff (not all strictly Puritan, though)
Also, if you are further interested in rational thinking, Hitchens has some great books!! I recommend "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens!! https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=god+is+not+great&qid=1558554004&s=gateway&sr=8-1
Saw him play this past May in Boston and they were phenomenal. If you get a chance check out his books Is Belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant? and Anarchy Evolution. Very smart dude and an incredibly talented vocalist.
You chose the red pill, friend. Welcome. Now you get to see how deep the rabbit hole really goes.
Sounds like you need to read some Hitchens. I strongly recommend god is not great. He shared some of the same views you clearly have on religion - that it is inherently pernicious and disparaging.
>However, we have not established that if someone received divine instruction fro God today to, for example, go pronounce judgement on a city and burn it to the ground, that it would contradict with Scripture.
I'm sorry, I can't keep doing this anymore.
However, if you PM me your email address, I would be happy to gift to you an ebook copy of this book if you promise to read it. Or if you live in the US, send me your physical address instead and I will ship you the paperback. Whichever version you would be more likely to read. I cannot recommend this book too highly.
Or the Audible version, if you prefer.
The Case for God and The Bible: A Biography by Karen Armstrong are both good. The God Delusion is a simple breakdown and explanation of most major religious claims. Beyond Religion: Ethics for a Whole World by the Dalai Llama is an interesting book on ethics. The Koran: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Cook is 150 funny and insightful pages on Islam. Under the Banner of Heaven is a shocking and fascinating account of fundamentalist Mormonism. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan discusses religion, and Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot are my secular versions of holy books. And of course given the occasion, I can't leave out God is Not Great.
I recommend avoiding authors like Lee Strobel and Deepak Chopra. Both are essentially liars for their causes, either inventing evidence, or deliberately being incredibly misleading in how they use terms. Popularity in those cases definitely doesn't indicate quality.
Not a book but a very inspirational video, have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk
I watch it about twice a year just for the goosebumps :)
Also: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519372910&sr=8-1&keywords=religion+poisons+everything
Fair enough, but there are also books that simply talk about atheism without having a strong agenda in either direction. One of my favorite books ever is God's Funeral https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Funeral-Decline-Western-Civilization/dp/0393047458 which gives an objective history about how Western society has moved away from religion, and how atheism has manifested itself in art, academia, and philosophy. The entire time I was reading it I was also trying to figure out whether or not the author intended to promote or argue against it all, but I never could. That's actually one of my favorite things about it.
Also I think your argument only goes so far. Books like God is not great https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966 do spend a lot of time talking about religion, but they spend more time promoting things like reason and critical thinking, only using religion as proof to the points, and not giving it the objective or in depth coverage of any real "study".
The conservative viewpoint of the humanities tends to be focussed on the Western Canon and the great books curriculum or Classical education. A common conservatives opinion is that a classical liberal arts education is critically important and valuable, but that modern Academia mired in revisionist theories and nihilism and leaving students adrift in a sea of electives taught by radicals has lost the thread and are now largely useless at best and more often than not are actively destructive.
A few books about the humanities, philosophy, art & education by conservatives and/or approvingly cited by conservatives.
I recommend the book God is Red. It does a great job of explaining the importance of place in Native American culture.
I think that people who immigrated or whose ancestors immigrated have a hard time understanding the important connection to environment felt by peoples who have had an intimate relationship with it for ~12,000 years—myself included.
Preston Sprinkle has a book called "Fight" that is a case for non-violence and so he deals with this.
Mostly he follows along with the first explanation you listed, but admits it difficulties. I think he does a good job fleshing it all out though.
It's currently only $2 on Kindle, and worth the money for sure.
Hello,
One of the first books I read after deciding to leave JW was God is not Not Great by Christopher Hitchens https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966. It was a great reading, especially because it was the first time I ever read anything like this, a straight forward attack on religions with reason as a base.
If you enjoyed the God Delusion you would probably enjoy either God Is Not Great by Hitchens or The End of Faith by Sam Harris
What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, by Fr. Dan Helminiak Ph.D.
That's one place to start. It's well worth the eleven bucks, but the Amazon page also summarizes a few key points from the book for free.
God is Not Great. Getting it out there, I think it's probably one of the more inevitable ones.
Losing Faith in Faith and Godless each by Dan Barker.
Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett.
First ones that come to mind. I think a few theologians may be worth reading as well. Not sure what ones though. If Kent Hovind wrote a book, we could keep a facepalm count.
"Thank you for sharing that reading with me earlier. I also have some reading I was hoping we could sit down and look at." http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
Sorry your parents are being jerks. Hopefully they'll come around.
You might also try reading some of the non-Bible books that are important to Christianity. These are some of the books we read in my university class on Christianity:
Another book I have that is interesting is the graphic novel version of the Book of Revelation its actually really well done in my opinion.
Nice piece! Beyond Good Intentions and When Helping Hurts are a couple books which deal with this issue.
The obligatory two books are Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great (How Religion Poisons Everything). Both are fantastic, Dawkins tends to focus more on Christianity and Hitchens is more widespread showing how dangerous it is across the board with many diverse examples.
For a broader sense start reading up on Philosophy and other religions, you will find that Christianity is nothing special and is quite weak in some areas. Familiarize yourself with the fallacies that are common in religious explanations as well. This way when the indoctrination starts to creep up you can look at the reasons you believed and see through them for what they are. Such engrained behaviors can be hard to shake, especially when guilt is involved as religion is a master craft at guilt manipulation. Once you see through the magic trick it looses it's power.
Another great book is The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, it shows how evolution works from a genetic level. I know you said you accept evolution and that is great, this will give you a more in depth look into the mechanics of the process and how we are no different than any other life form aside from our development tree. Its easy to read and understand, in fact this book really helped me break away from some of the mentalities of religion since it shows how humans really arent anything special and are very young.
Another author is Sam Harris, he has a lot of books that can help a deconvert find meaning in things they once valued without the need for religion, on subjects like morality, free will, spirituality, and other aspects.
Here is Hitchens' book on youtube read by the man himself:
God is not Great
The Time article Is Hell Dead? covers Rob Bell's book
Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. He's a pastor of a church that attracts 7,000 people every Sunday. He's also written Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality, Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile and Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith.
The description for Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile states:
>There is a church not too far from us that recently added a $25 million addition to their building. Our local newspaper ran a front-page story not too long ago about a study revealing that one in five people in our city lives in poverty. This is a book about those two numbers. Jesus Wants to save Christians is a book about faith and fear, wealth and war, poverty, power, safety, terror, Bibles, bombs, and homeland insecurity. It's about empty empires and the truth that everybody's a priest. It's about oppression, occupation, and what happens when Christians support, animate and participate in the very things Jesus came to set people free from. It's about what it means to be a part of the church of Jesus in a world where some people fly planes into buildings while others pick up groceries in Hummers.
Thanks. The article was written by Christopher Hitchens, the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. He was while alive one of my favorite people on the planet. His politics at the end were not as progressive as they had been for many decades, but his genius for taking down everything religious was imho, the best the world had ever seen in thousands of years. In fact I saw him in person at the Library, just down the street from the new Mormon buildings on Vine Street, not long before he died. I wept like a child when he was gone. My hero.
I want to recommend two books to you which defend Christianity's 'traditional' interpretation of homosexuality.
Is God Anti-Gay? and The Plausibility Problem
Both are written by same-sex attracted men who have chosen to remain celibate due to their understanding of Christian teaching.
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality is a great book, but it may put her on the defensive too quickly to really read it. It can be a good second book if you are doing a continuous swap, however.
Dearest Sir,
Watch this.
I presume you've read the bible, have you read the case against? Here are two books I recommend. 1 and 2. I'm not going to answer your argument as it goes beyond rationality and is too poor to continue a rational debate. Please educate yourself either through what I have shown you or other means.
Yours truly,
A fellow mammal.
This article is nice. It's very cursory and easy to understand. For some more extended reading on the subject
God Is Not Great. How Religion Poisons Everything. by Christopher Hitchens.
He said it best.
edit: I sincerely encourage you to read it.
Secular ideologies can be just as authoritarian as religious ideologies. re: communist china, the state is their "religion" and it will crush any potential challenger, including atheists. It is not a fair representation of a potential secular society. Secular humanism would be a far more ideal "state philosophy."
I'm not as well versed in Mughals or House of Baghdad. The Renaissance was inspired by humanism and was a break from the theocracy that came before, and further distanced itself with the enlightenment.
There's an argument that any cultural human achievement, especially those within theocratic societies, could have been just as good if not better if they occurred in a secular humanist society
I think that this will give you a basic overview better than I ever could
For further reading (if your honestly interested) I'd suggest:
Believing in the sky fairy is for those who do not want to think for themselves and need an imaginary friend who always listens to them. Organized religion has caused so much pain in the world and hopefully eventually society can move past it
That's a lot to tackle, but off the top of my head:
b. Most atheists wouldn't say that the evidence shows that no god exists, rather only that they see insufficient evidence of his existence.
c. I'm not sure what "simple logic and reasoning" you're referring to. Again, most Christians would view logic and reason as absolutely consistent with and foundational to their faith.
d. Deferring to a 'god of the gaps' argument is almost always a bad idea.
By trivializing a POV with statements like "Cry more?" and "crying in faux anger" you are certainly not adding anything to the conversation, and I might add, proving the point entirely.
There is clearly a double standard with regard to the religious demanding extra care and tenderness with regard to their "feelings" and yet no such respect is afforded to atheists.
As for this being a 'first world problem', clearly you have not read Hitchens, Harris or Dawkins. I suggest you start with "God is Not Great" by Hitchens to find out why this attitude is part of what's so damaging to everything and every socioeconomic group worldwide.
Watch him on video
I would highly recommend the debate between him and william lane craig (though IMO, you can skip over william lane craig and still get all the awesomeness)
Read his work, I would recommend God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, which also can be found on sites like the pirate bay if you are of that bent, and don't mind reading digital copies, there is also a good summary at wikipedia.
Here is a site to help you find an affirming church:
http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/
Also, if you can get your hands on this book God and the Gay Christian, it will help you with a lot of your Bible questions.
TL;DR God's Politics by Jim Wallis is a decent starting place for frustrated American Christians in the modern era if nothing else. It's a little dated now, but it's still relevant. In general, any good Christian political theology will a) define the difference between the Church and the State and b) articulate how those two entities will relate to each other, especially in the life of the individual believer. You should step back from applying your faith to US politics until you can articulate your general Christian view of how believers around the world are to engage with States around the world. Once you have your broad principles of Christian political theology established, only then turn your gaze to US politics to apply what you believe.
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If I may be so direct, I think your core problem may be that you need a clearer political theology, not that you need to abandon politics altogether. As a pastor who's now lived all over the USA, I've noticed that many—if not the large majority—of professed Christians in America hear “faith and politics” and immediately assume you're talking about the religious right, the Moral Majority, etc. But the modern religious right is a rather new invention, one that didn't exist until the 1970s and 80s and emerged out of a targeted effort by Jerry Falwell, his fundamentalist allies, and Reagan's campaign team to link conservative politics and conservative theology. While today the politics of Falwell and friends is seen as normative for Christian politics, in reality there are nearly 2000 years history of Christian political thought, one in which you have everything from Prohibition organizers to pacifists rejecting politics altogether to Nazi theologians in the 1930s to medieval monarchists to Christian anarchists to the Civil Rights movement. In the words of Inigo Montoya, “Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.”
First, let's talk scriptures. You've got Romans 13:1-7, Matthew 22:15-22/Mark 12:13-17/Luke 20:20-26, Jeremiah 29:1-14, Isaiah 10:1-4, lots of case studies in Christian relationships to the State in Acts and the New Testament letters, and possible fodder from the Old Testament depending upon how you see the historic relationship between God and Israel via the law/covenant (i.e. setting the basic legal/economic framework for Israel), the monarchies (i.e. case studies in God's reactions to state actions), and the prophets (i.e. God's repeated calls for justice) speaking to God's present-day desires for any non-ancient-Israelite State. I've missed a few passages and themes, but those scriptures are the ones you're most likely to see in any Christian political theology and so should read on your own before going any further. You have to consider a lot of personal ethics stuff from scripture too. By what rule and on what scriptural grounds do we determine which Christian ethics—if any—apply to our political life and which—if any—do not. Does Amos' call for justice and the Old Testament decree of Jubilee speak to how we vote? If our State wants to go to war, how do we as Christians decide whether we support that war or not: do we reject all war, create a just war formula by which to evaluate wars, or give blanket endorsement to all that the State does? In general, how do we decide which parts of scripture speak only to our personal ethics, which to only our politics, and which to both?
Here is where Christian tradition comes in. u/jmj1970 cites Martin Luther's Two Kingdoms Doctrine, which essentially declares that some realms of human life belong to the State and some to the Church but that God ordains both kingdoms to our benefit. This idea is an old one, stretching back to St. Augustine in the 300s, and it's a good starting place for anyone new to Christian political theology. There are a few variations on this theme you might also consider. For instance, Abraham Kuyper advocated the notion of sphere sovereignty in the late 1800s, which expands the ideas of Two Kingdoms to set aside protected spheres of life not only for the State and Church but also for concepts like the family, economic life, etc. to ensure no one entity has totalitarian control of the human person. In general, most Christian theologies of politics will describe how the Church and State are distinct... and then go on to describe the nature of that relationship.
This is where you really get diversity in Christian political theology. To split this section into two broad categories, you have the Christian idealists and the Christian realists. Among the idealists and on a more pacifistic note, you've got John Howard Yoder and acolytes of his like Shane Claiborne—speaking out of the Mennonite pacifist tradition—who argue that the Church is wholly separate from but called to act prophetically towards the State, favoring personal pacifism, prophetic political acts, and the rejection anything that would appear to 'baptize' the State with the Church's endorsement or validation. Christian liberation theology and liberation theologians like James Cone and Gustavo Gutiérrez are similar in that they see Christ's life and work as one of standing in solidarity with the poor, the marginalized, and the oppressed. You've also got Christian anarchists like Leo Tolstoy in this branch. Finally, there are Christian groups who so radically reject politics they don't participate in politics at all, as well as others who claim that your faith has no bearing on your politics whatsoever, so don't even worry about any of these questions and vote however you like. These schools of thought can variously be seen as the “Christian political idealists”. In contrast, you have Reinhold Niebuhr and the school of [Christian realism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_realism_(international_relations). In this vein you can also find thinkers like Augustine (skip to section VII) and Aquinas, who typically will present the State as a necessary evil and give contexts, constraints, and justifications for how that necessary evil can be wielded. Most Christian theories of Just War fall into this camp. Finally, while I am not endorsing their views nor suggesting all Christian realists think this way, Hitler's German Christians, those who used Christianity to endorse slavery and apartheid or colonialism and the genocide of indigenous peoples, and others also fall into this camp in that they approve of necessary evils but take that approval to an extreme. Unfortunately for you, I fall into the Christian political idealist camp, so my understanding of Christian political realists is more limited and my view is that there is usually more similarity among the realists than among the more idealists. Mea culpa.
All this to say... don't let modern American politics cloud you into thinking that the modern religious right is the only form Christian politics has ever taken and that anything else is revolutionary or radically new. Conservative theology doesn't necessitate conservative politics. I myself am generally conservative in my theological beliefs but radically progressive in my politics, but until my conversion I was actually politically conservative and theologically liberal (i.e. my faith flipped my politics in contrast to what most might expect). While most Christian political thinkers will advocate some kind of distinction and separation between Church and State, the nature of that division varies widely from theologian to theologian and has done so for nearly 2000 years. To get you started on exploring this spectrum of Christian political, I would recommend God's Politics by Jim Wallis, followed by Reinhold Niebuhr's Moral Man and Immoral Society alongside Shane Claiborne's Jesus for President (admittedly not a scholarly work like Niebuhr's but still an accessible introduction).
There are projections that show that, at the rate priests are aging and retiring, and at the rate fewer and fewer people are joining the priesthood, there will be only 1000 priests active in France in 20 years.
So in other words, in at least one Western country, the number of priests, masses offered, parishes able to remain active, ect, will be reduced by about 90%. For a sense of what that is like, just imagine, if 90% of priests in your state disappeared tomorrow, or if 9 out of ten Catholic Churches near you closed.
And this is in 20 years. To put that in perspective, 20 years ago from the present was 1998.
So yeah, the Church is pretty screwed. I think our only real option is to retreat, regroup, and focus on the fundmentals of the faith. Eventually, the time to reevangalize society will come but that's many decades, maybe a century away. Basically, that's our children's job. Our job is to preserve as much of the Church as we can and rebuild her to weather the coming storm.
I have three books on my shelves at the moment that I'd gladly recommend:
Torn by Justin Lee. Outside of the US the book is called Unconditional.
Bible Gender Sexuality by James V. Brownson.
God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines.
I have found Wesley Hill's talks and writing about homosexuality from a Christian perspective interesting. Here is a book that looks like it might be relevant to you:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310534194/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
Another interesting book. Especially if you're a BR fan. Good points made on both sides.
Read How Should We Then Live? by Francis Schaeffer.
Bottom line: as government grows, Christianity and government become enemies, because:
Capitalist countries, on the other hand, are predicated on the idea that government exists to provide men with a means of forcing its citizens to do things, which is usually (not always) bad. The best path forward is to enforce laws regulating conduct but not outcome.
The more you regulate anything, the more force men need to apply to other men. Since regulating outcome requires vastly more power than conduct, socialism requires much more power to be sustainable. Concentrated power on that scale is never good in the hands of fallen men.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything you have," as they say. Including your freedom to worship.
The first moment, I remember was like my third day of greek class when my professor mentioned how the greek word translated homosexuality doesn't necessarily represent the concept writers, such as Paul, would have been conveying. He talked about a couple of the passages.
I read a book some time later by Mark Achtemeier called The Bible's Yes to Same Sex Marriage. He was a conservative theologian who used to travel around speaking against homosexuality. He had a pretty big change of heart, which gives me hope, and now he goes around speaking against what he used to do and advocating for those in same sex relationships and their full inclusion in the church. Another book, titled What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality is another book I recommend. It's pretty similar to the other book.
There is another book, I can't remember the name right now. But, it is a history of the concept of sexuality. It was based of Foucault's book on the subject. In short, they do a more expansive survey of the development of sexuality. Saying that homosexuality, as we understand it, is an 18th century development. So it would be difficult to maintain truly, that biblical writers would have been disapproving of same sex relationships as they exist today.
Lastly, there is a book called Struggling with Scripture. They write a book about wrestling with interpretation of scripture and use homosexuality as an application point. They kind of, in my mind, synthesize the material between the first three books I mentioned to think about how do we understand biblical texts in light of a changing culture. And give a good balance about how to see the scripture as authoritative texts but also how to think of them in our cultural context.
So, that's a small bit of what I have read. I've shown and told these arguments to many who have asked me. I know a number of people, mostly younger, who have had a similar change as I have. I've had many conversations where we are just talking past each other or who think I'm twisting the Bible. Those are always unfortunate.
Austen Hartke's Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians is a great resource for this question.
The God Delusion would be a good start. God is Not Great is another.
Books like this from Hitchens or this from Nietzsche develop a doctrine of non-belief for those that are convinced by the atheistic arguments. I wasn't, so I stopped the practices of unbelief which vary like those of believers.
I know this is an old post, but if you want an interesting book to read about Greg Graffin's positions on religion: http://www.amazon.com/Belief-God-Good-Bad-Irrelevant/dp/0830833773
Sam Harris - The End of Faith
Christopher Hitchens - God Is Not Great
Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion
Antitheism/Christopher Hitchens FTW.
God Is Not Great
Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne, and Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile (which is not called Jesus Wants to Save Christian: Learning to Read a Dangerous Book).
For more ideas check out his book Jesus For President
It's written for an American audience but is definitely relevant in other parts of the world.
Religion Poisons Everything
Even the best religions are harmful to society. Everyone has the capability to be a good person without religion.
God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I enjoyed it, tho' in my case it was largely preaching to the choir.
I would encourage you to read The Bruised Reed by Richard Sibbes. It has helped me in a similar time.
​
https://www.amazon.com/Bruised-Reed-Puritan-Paperbacks/dp/0851517404
You might be interested in reading a book called "Fight: A Christian Case for Non-Violence" - I found particularly interesting the chapter where the author examines how so many major characters of the early church came to the same conclusion you just mentioned. In fact, the author mentions that among the first few centuries prior to Constantine, he was not able to find one church father who justified violence.
I've read this guys book. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
its a good read. But it not hard to figure what choice xtianity is going to make.
I would argue that any benefit brought by religion would be amplified if obtained elsewhere, and without these negative extremism consequences. If you're interested, Hitchens wrote a fascinating book called god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, which is what my previous comment was referencing.
Christopher Hitchen's book god is Not Great is another good one. There was also a book on here the other day regarding deconversion from fundamental Christianity; it may be what you're looking for.
Here is another good read: https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314
Here's a few to start with:
Debating Bible Verses on Homosexuality (New York Times Article)
Queer Theology (Website)
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships (Book)
Lou, have you read Jana Riess’ The Next Mormons? Because I think you’d appreciate her research.
Everyone interested in this subject should read Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne.
I would go as far to buy it for anyone, if needed.
I found Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything a good introduction to one of the largest "curtains" on Earth, a belief in God.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
Hitchens is very intelligent and articulate, world-famous for debating and his writings.
https://youtu.be/xFnSjmQCGDM
1 book: The Portable Atheist.
For further reading: God Is Not Great and The God Delusion.
Have you asked her to read God Is Not Great or The God Delusion?
Have you read these books yourself?
Is her family religious?
I recommend God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.
For those here with the desire to help, check out When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself
Yeh, that author, Daniel Helmeniak wrote one of the first pro-gay Christian books What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. Apparently he continues to be a vital thinking man/theologian.
My top 2 that are on my list right now:
You should also check out God and the gay christian by Matthew Vines. It's a relatively short book, but it cemented the belief that homosexuality isn't a sin in my mind.
Used by God Sorry OP
Buy this to your mother, and watch yourself get kicked of your house :P
Check out Austen Hartke and his YouTube videos, as well as his book “Transforming.” (https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100)
I’m in the same boat as you and its helped me somewhat reconcile it—if you need to talk about it, I’m available though I’m kind of still an egg maybe?
Christianity and homosexuality are not in conflict. The idea that they are is a rather recent one, and is not universally accepted. Please read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426707633&sr=8-1&keywords=god+and+the+gay+christian
Being gay doesn't mean giving up your faith.
Believe it or not, the people who wrote the ELCA text are aware of everything you just wrote. It's not like we're just pretending that those things don't exist. There's a reason that the document specifies that there are multiple positions (including yours!) which an ELCA Lutheran can hold in good conscience.
Also, the lack of sacramental marriage in the Lutheran world is a very important thing that I don't want you to ignore. Until after Vatican 2, my marriage would have been invalid according to the Roman Catholic church. My own grandparents were unable to get married by the Catholics until they were re-married Catholic in the 1970s, since my grandmother was Protestant and would not convert. It's also awfully convenient that Roman Catholics suddenly discovered that Protestant marriage was "valid but imperfect" right around the time that there was a lot of invalid marriage between Catholics and Protestants in American and European society.
My recommended reading on the subject of gay relationships is actually God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines of the Gay Christian Network: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2/ ... He is an evangelical with a very high view of Scripture who engages with everything you've said and more.
If you really want to take a Biblical approach to homosexuality you can read this and be a little prepared.
That being said you're 16 and still under your parent's house and on their dime. I'd stick out the 2 years and wait till you were out on your own and secure before you tell them. It won't be easier it will mean you won't be subjected to some of the "pray the gay away" bullshit.
1a) Sodom Story: The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was in-hospitality. Jesus says so himself, Luke 10:8-12. Same applies to the Rape of the Levite's concubine in Judges 19.
1b) The Passages in Leviticus 18 and 20 are about the Hebrew Purity code, they are not talking about sin, but ritual purity to enter the holy of holies where God was with His people. It's about violating the "norm". No Pigs because they have split hooves, and hooved animals aren't supposed to have that. No Shell Fish because they are fish that don't have scales/gills. Things that are atypical are considered abnormal, and thus unideal, thus "abomination". But, That word doesn't mean sinful. Same with gay sex, it's a violation of the ideal of male-ness. Men Penetrate; they don't get penetrated. So those verses don't have anything to say to today's world, as when Jesus died the veil on the Holy of Holies was torn, granting everyone access.
1c) Romans 1: Is an argument about idolatry, not sexuality. He's using sexuality in this case as an example of the deviation from the norm, not as sin. The word unnatural here is actually applied to an action of God in Romans 11, so it doesn't mean sinful. This is Paul appealing to Jewish sensibilities to some extent, applying the logic from the Leviticus passage.
1d) Vice Lists: 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1. The word use 'arsenokoites' isn't used elsewhere. We don't know exactly what it means. But given it's context, we think it is talking about some kind of economic exploitation involving sex, not homosexual sex. So pimping for instance. Probably talking about the men who controlled the temple prostitutes and the men who used them.
1e) Jude 5-7: Says sex with angels is a no-no. The attempted rape in Sodom was of angels, not men.
Hope that was helpful.
Books:
Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality
What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality
Homosexuality and Christian Faith
fyi, I have a Masters in Biblical Studies and Theology from one of the top seminaries in the country/world. And I'm a gay Christian. You can be Faithful and gay. =)
I would suggest reading Why Christianity Must Change or Die by John Shelby Spong. He was was the Episcopalian Arch Bishop of Newark, and his idea of God is not that of a deity, but he still considers himself Christian.
Austen Hartke’s book is an amazing resource for those that come from a Christian background and are dealing with family that is using religion to hurt.
Transforming.
In a sense he did.
I'm sort of left wondering, after reading his twelve points on Christianity, what's left after he pares away all the chaff.
I think it refers to this book http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
This book: http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
> Words to live by.
Or to write about even.
Indeed.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248
God is not great by Christopher Hitchens. If you are looking for someone that had a sound knowledge of Christianity, its history and scripture, Hitchens is the man.
Here's a book I think she should read
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
Never meant to imply that christianity has a monopoly on delusions of supremacy...
I think it is when it leads to tribalism and bigotry.
God is not great
The inverted bell curve is also pretty common for controversial and polarising issues, for example A People's History of the US, God Is Not Great and 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.
The way I see it, the inverted bell curve is a warning sign for novels (especially best-sellers) and technical books, but not necessarily for opinionated non-fiction where it may just indicate that many jimmies were rustled.
This one is my favorite...
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
I say he should pass out this book instead!
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
Come /r/atheism, let's get him the money.
Here is the mobile version of your link
Reminds me of the premise of the book The Benedict Option, which I haven't gotten around to reading yet.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/the-benedict-option/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/benedict-option-faq/
Here's the book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Benedict-Option-Strategy-Christians-Post-Christian/dp/0735213291
Check out this book.
Ohai person whose story closely resembles my own. :D
P.S.
I'm going to suggest two books:this and this one comes from a liberal standpoint and the other is conservative.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
Both explain it completely.