#3 in Christian denominations & sects books
Use arrows to jump to the previous/next product

Reddit mentions of An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

Sentiment score: 15
Reddit mentions: 24

We found 24 Reddit mentions of An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Here are the top ones.

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
Buying options
View on Amazon.com
or
    Features:
  • Used Book in Good Condition
Specs:
Height9 Inches
Length6 Inches
Number of items1
Weight1.1 Pounds
Width0.8 Inches

idea-bulb Interested in what Redditors like? Check out our Shuffle feature

Shuffle: random products popular on Reddit

Found 24 comments on An Insider's View of Mormon Origins:

u/ShaqtinADrool · 9 pointsr/exmormon

2 great books, on this topic.

  1. An Insider's View on Mormon Origins
    https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922636&sr=8-1&keywords=insiders+view+of+mormon+origins

  2. Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847
    https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/dp/194414109X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922568&sr=8-1&keywords=mormon+counterfeiting

    In summary: Joseph, and others, were heavily involved in conning others. This was their thing. These were not honest farmers trying to make an honest buck. They swindled people. The gold plates were just another con that eventually worked its way into a religion (only after Joseph couldn't sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in order to make some $).
u/Joe_Sm · 7 pointsr/exmormon

Dude: Close this deal.


• Grant Palmer's Insider's View of Mormonism

• Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith


MormonThink.com


Close this crap now. Immediately. If you haven't read the two books, they are super easy reads. Nearly as easy as the CES Letter. DO IT!!!

u/WhoaBlackBetty_bbl · 7 pointsr/exmormon

You should read An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. It feels less amazing when you take out the parts that could be found in his own back yard.

u/dschaab · 6 pointsr/DebateAChristian

For the past year I've had regular conversations with the missionaries who work in our area. In an effort to understand their beliefs I've gone through several books, among which is Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, which deals with issues like the authorship of the Book of Mormon, the golden plates, and other hot-button issues. Palmer, an active Mormon, ends this book with the conclusion that Joseph Smith probably never translated anything correctly; that the Book of Mormon is an amalgamation of the Bible, 19th-century doctrine, and his own fruitful imagination; and that some of the foundational events (such as the First Vision) were the result of elaborations over time. Yet Palmer does not reject Mormonism and instead calls for a renewed focus on Jesus Christ.

When it comes to the question of whether Mormons are Christians, I think we must tread cautiously for two reasons. First, Jesus said that it's not our place to decide whether someone else is saved; that authority belongs to Jesus alone. Second, Mormonism is a spectrum like any other system of thought. Someone like Grant Palmer could identify as Mormon while clearly demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit that always accompanies saving faith. In the same way, it's possible for someone to identify as Christian and yet clearly fail to keep in step with the Spirit.

I tend to think that if Paul were to write a letter to the Mormon church today, he would write something like his letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were given the plain and simple gospel, yet they were convinced by a rogue sect to add on all the burdens of following the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. Did Paul consider the Galatians to no longer be Christians because of this? I don't see a clear indication of this. What is clear is that Paul insisted that the gospel remain absolutely pure, even if an angel brought a different gospel. This is a good lesson for the Mormon church as well as Christian denominations.

What keeps Mormonism going is not the evidence for their faith (since there is little if any at all), but their reliance on emotions (the "burning in the bosom") as a sort of spiritual divining rod for truth. Random chance will ensure that some small fraction of people will get a positive answer to their prayers, even if it's purely coincidental. The fact that emotions are so untrustworthy is precisely why Jonathan Edwards preached against the dependence on one's emotions as proof of conversion nearly a hundred years before the Mormon church was founded.

The aspect of Mormonism that most concerns me is not its unique beliefs, but its tendency to produce atheists. It seems to me that most Mormons who leave their faith because of the lack of evidence also assume that Christianity, on which Mormonism claims to be based, has just as little evidence in its favor. I firmly believe that Christianity is an evidence-based religion, and so I spend a lot of time talking with the missionaries about the reliability of the New Testament and the historicity of Jesus's resurrection. They may never leave Mormonism, but if they do, I want them to see that Christianity is a rational choice.

u/slackjaw79 · 6 pointsr/atheism

An Insiders View of Mormon Origins written by a former employee of the Church Education System. It got me out.

EDIT: A little more detail. This guy graduated from the church-owned BYU with a Masters in History. Many of the things he's written in this book have been confirmed by the church itself in the recent "Gospel Topics" articles.

But, TBH, these kids won't be able to read anything you give them. As missionaries, you are limited to a small set of books, no newspapers, no movies, no music. If you want to really make them think, you could ask some questions about the Book of Mormon itself. 2 Nephi 5:21 states that dark skin is the result of a curse from God. 2 Nephi 2:22 states that there was no death or reproduction before the Fall of Adam, which Mormons believe happened about 6,000 years ago. The introduction of the Book teaches that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the book from the Gold Plates. In reality, he used a rock in a hat, an illegal practice used by con-artists known as scrying. Good luck!

u/BroBrotherton · 5 pointsr/exmormon

That phrase from the temple ceremony was autobiographical. JS was not an original thinker as much as he was very well-read and very tuned in to the philosophies of men and the theological trends of the day. You could have taught your class using Grant Palmer's excellent book.
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851570/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_api_4r3sxbY6AYSPN

u/22snappy · 3 pointsr/exmormon

If you read grant palmer's book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" at the same time you read rough stone rolling you can identify more issues. They both address the same problems to some degree but bushman spins it in a pro-mormon way while palmer spins it the other direction.

It is actually quite fascinating to see how two scholars interpret the same facts totally differently.

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

u/LightMinded · 3 pointsr/exmormon

I don't believe there is. However, on Amazon's listing you can send feedback to Audible requesting an audio version. The link is on the bottom of the right hand column.

>Looking for the Audiobook Edition?
Tell us that you'd like this title to be produced as an audiobook, and we'll alert our colleagues at Audible.com. If you are the author or rights holder, let Audible help you produce the audiobook: Learn more at ACX.com.

u/ClayChristensen · 3 pointsr/exmormon

Grant Palmer’s Insider’s View is a great start:
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851570/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_3IlOBbH90V1ZN

u/el-greco · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I don't have a link, but as I recall, a chapter or two of An Insider's View of Mormon Origins covers this quite well. (I don't have a copy, I checked it out from the BYU library.)

u/jasonellis · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I feel for you. I decided I no longer believed just as my younger daughter was being born. My timing was just slightly better, as I was somewhat out the door, but not publicly, at the time of her blessing. So, I was able to give a good blessing that was more of a general "your parents love you, make good decisions" then anything Mormon specific.

My wife also left eventually, but it was after some pretty rocky conversations and tense times in our marriage. I would wait for times when she would say something that I could use as an "in" to say something about church history she didn't know about. Joseph's polyandry, especially with teenage girls, is very powerful stuff with many women. So, if a report came out about a guy in the news that had sex with a teenage girl, my wife might say how that is gross, and I would reply "Joseph Smith did it multiple times" and leave it at that. It planted seeds. Later she would bring it up and ask for supporting details. Try and think of what responses she might give to those ("back then, men married younger women", etc.) and have calm counter-responses to those points. It will get the wheels turning. Eventually, like I said, my wife left and is now a more ardent/militant atheist than I am. I can proudly say my children will not be brainwashed by any religion.

I would also emphasize that you need to really concentrate on your love for her. Women are taught in Mormonism that their marriage is their key to exaltation. They cannot do it alone, they need a priesthood holder sealed to them. They can see this apostasy of yours as the end of their marriage in a very real way. Constantly ensure her of how much you love and cherish her, and how you need her in your life. That will help comfort her that you are in it with her and not to take off and be a sinner in the world.

Good luck. If you need "softer" info that your wife can read if she gets to the point that she is willing to look, there are resources people can recommend here. I would recommend these:

  1. Why people leave the Mormon church. This video takes the approach that people leave for legitimate reasons. It isn't the best as far as conclusions, because in the end it tries to say that they should stay, but it can get her started in reasons from a non "anti" point of view.

  2. 20 Truths About Mormonism. I LOVE this site and don't think it is referenced enough. Have her read it in order, because the intro is very important, as it sets the context that he is only seeking truth, and that is why he left.

  3. Remembering the wives of Joseph Smith. This site is good in that many members don't think Joseph was a polygamist, or that much of the story are just anti lies that are spread. It has a wonderful table on the front page that shows his wives, their husbands at the time Joseph married them, and how old they are. The links are to a short biography of each, with reference links to the LDS church's own family search genealogy web site for source info.

  4. Book: An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Great book. Also, this interview (4 PARTS) with the author is wonderful to listen to, maybe even before reading the book.

    Good luck!
u/[deleted] · 2 pointsr/exmormon

"An Insider's View on Mormon Origins" by former Institute Professor Grant Palmer - https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

​

Anything by D. Michael Quinn - https://www.amazon.com/D-Michael-Quinn/e/B001K8FM6I?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_6&qid=1558533213&sr=1-6

​

I'm reading "Early Mormonism and the Magical World View" now, and it is giving really fascinating insights into how Magical Occult ideas made their way into Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, and Book of Abraham.

u/kerrielou73 · 2 pointsr/exmormon

If you haven't studied "anti-Mormon" sources, you can't claim you aren't any of those things, because that's part of it. The constant reminders to only get your information from the church. That is one of the biggest elements of indoctrination, brainwashing, and sheltering.

They're preventing you from doing thorough research and frankly, it's not our job to digest all of for you. The problems with the church are so numerous there is no way anyone is going to be able to lay them all out for you in a comment on a reddit post. Asking us to tell you why we left is not evidence you weren't indoctrinated if you refuse to go do the study yourself.

Most active members have no idea just how much information there is and that no, it is not spun. Here's a little bit of the history on why and how the real history the church is now trying to manage finally came out. There is a couple in Provo who have a Christian ministry basically dedicated to taking down the Mormon church. Around 1990 they published a pamphlet that talked about some serious stuff the vast majority of members didn't know, like Joseph's Smith polygamy. Normally the church wouldn't respond to these things, but they felt the claims were worrisome enough (getting questions from members) they needed to publish a response, so they invited two BYU historians into the archives (you know the ones in the mountain) to study ALL of the historical documents they had and write a refutation debunking the Tanner's claims.

For about two years Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel studied every document and took photos of each one, with the church's blessing. Problem was, not only did what they find back up the Tanner's claims, but the actual history was much worse (things like Polyandry). They did write a rebuttal, but it was rejected by the Q15 and they were told not to publish anything at all, ever. More than twenty years later the essays on lds.org the church finally published to at least be a little bit honest are right out of Vogel and Quinns essays. By being a little bit I mean, if you not only read the essays, but then follow the footnotes, well. It's not good. The Saints book is the same way. It doesn't out and out lie, but talk about out of context and leaving out very important information if it's too faith challenging. It's still not fully honest. Not even remotely. Shouldn't the church have to be as honest as they expect the membership?

Being historians, not publishing and keeping it all a secret didn't sit well with them and they published anyway. In fact, Dan Vogel made all those facsimiles of all those documents, thousands and thousands of them, available to any other scholar wanting to pour through them and publish their own findings. For their trouble they were excommunicated as part of the September Six (google it).

Many (maybe most on church history) of the anti-Mormon books out there directly source these documents and you can even get them yourself. Dan Vogel published all of them in several volumes called, "Early Mormon Documents." The goal was to publish all the source material he and Quinn had collected without editorial comment. I'm not sure how much more objective it can get or how any Mormon can claim the stacks of books that came out of these are not sourced or dishonest.

If you want a summary list of the major issues, and it's a long one, you should download the free pdf version of the CES letter on cesletter.org. Then read the rebuttals over on Fair Mormon. Then read the rebuttals to the rebuttals.

When I left, a nice summary didn't exist, so I had to read books and boy did I read a lot of them. I happened to start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is well sourced out of the RLDS archives, but I also read Grant Palmer's, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Incidentally, he was another BYU professor excommunicated for publishing the irrefutable truth. Keep in mind, these people were active members. They were not trying to tear down the church. They simply felt it was morally wrong to continue to have blatant and significant inaccuracies in teaching manuals, in conference talks, in Seminary, in well......everything.

My reading list (those I can remember at least):

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

Mormon America: The Power and the Promise

If you still think everything other than what is directly published by the church are anti-Mormon lies or tricks, well I can help you there at too. How deep have you gotten into Journal of Discourses? It's almost worse than anything written by an anti-Mormon. So much worse than a couple of troublesome quotes. I also re-read the D&C while reading Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith in tandem. It was a lot harder to swallow that way to say the least and both of those are obviously considered faithful study.

​

If you want to claim you aren't brainwashed or indoctrinated you have to do the work. Saying "I posted on Reddit and no one convinced me," or the other favorite, "people much smarter than me have already studied all that and say its fine," are not valid arguments. They're lazy cop outs.

​

Good luck on your search for truth. I encourage you to study it out from ALL sources, including faithful sources you haven't yet studied.

​

edited to add: Forgot one of the most important. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith

edited edited to add: If you want something a little more biased for the church you can even just read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. If you're going to read the D&C and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the same time as I did, I recommend at least reading this one first. It's going to be much clearer if you've read at least one of the biographies and Rough Stone Rolling was published by Deseret Book.

u/video_descriptionbot · 2 pointsr/exjw
SECTION | CONTENT
--|:--
Title | Jehovah's Witnesses v. Mormons - Ep. 1 - Faith versus Faith (with Jonathan Streeter)
Description | In this new series I explore the similarities and differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and other high control groups. First up are the Mormons, with ex-Mormon vlogger and blogger Jonathan Streeter answering my questions about the various beliefs and practices of the LDS Church. Resources mentioned in the video: 1. LDS.org Official Gospel Topics Essays: https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng&old=true Essay acknowledging that Joseph Smith married 14-year-olds and other men's wives: https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true 2. Rough Stone Rolling: sold in official church bookstore here: https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-rough-stone-rolling-richard-l-bushman-5351?variant_id=104298-paperback On amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532 3. Insider view on Mormon Origins, on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SP990KXWHKW4G8ZH8G8S  4. CES Letter: http://cesletter.com/ 5. "Letter for my wife and children" - similar to CES letter above, but with a softer tone. More accessible. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18W3AgWXw6zMUllRW85bXc0RWc/view 6. FAIRMormon Apologetic website: https://www.fairmormon.org/ 7. Exmormon Subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/ 8. Mormon Stories Podcast: http://www.mormonstories.org/ 9. Jonathan’s Website: http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVTCFh3uDMH0GZlwl1JOoHQ FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/ThoughtsOnThingsAndStuff/ 10: Mormon Spectrum (for finding local support groups): http://www.mormonspectrum.org/  Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/cedars Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cedarsjwsurvey Buy my book, "The Reluctant Apostate": http://a.co/5qFN4JU
Length | 1:30:08






****

^(I am a bot, this is an auto-generated reply | )^Info ^| ^Feedback ^| ^(Reply STOP to opt out permanently)
u/yakinikuman · 2 pointsr/latterdaysaints

I really liked An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, despite the somewhat clickbaity title.

u/ajay2u · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I was just looking for both of these on Audible, too. Thanks for the tip to request the audio version. I just requested it for both, too. I'd appreciate it if others did, too:

http://www.amazon.com/An-Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/

u/johnybackback · 1 pointr/AskReddit

>Much longer issue here, and some of the research is so new that it is only a few years old. In summary though, the hypocephali, the lion-couch scene, and the sacrifice/altar scene were all used by ancient Egyptians as a "and/also" metaphor. It was one story used to tell another. Or in other words, the author got to create stories analogous to commonly known stories. It's hard to find a modern day equivalent, it's so foreign to our way of thinking. Since the original authors of these died, we can never know what the author intended by his or her use of these scenes.
>
>Also, to state the attached text to the scrolls were the Book of Abraham is incorrect reasoning. It was common practice to attach vignettes to entirely different texts. We assume "if they're adjacent, they match". This is not the case with Egyptians. Further underscored by the idea that Facsimiles 1 and 3 are not even referenced in the adjacent extant scrolls we do have.

Everyone watching, this is that self delusion in action. Your explanation is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a response. Pick up a copy of "By His own Hand Upon Payprus." Your excuse is that basically the symbols we see don't actually mean what we think they mean, even though we can read them. I have a book full of pictures my dad bought at Deseret Book that has the little hieroglyphic on the margins, and a very lengthy "translation." We have the book the "translators" used to code what each symbol supposedly meant. The very fact the church locks these documents up and doesn't talk about them is all the proof one should need. Even Hugh Nibley's assistant who was assigned to review left the church.

It does disprove it, and non-peer reviewed ramblings of paid apologists can't cover up the obvious truth.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560851570/ref=kinw_rke_tl_1

As far as the Kinderhook plates go, why are you trying to slander the man who created the plates? That was the tactic the leaders of the church took BEFORE we found them, and scientifically proved that they were not ancient, and were in fact created by the very process described by the guy who waited 36 years to announce it. A more pertinent question would be why did every Prophet, Seer, and Revelator defend Joseph Smith's claim that he could translate the plates up until we actually found them and science vindicated the farmer?

The people who planted the plates weren't the ones that claimed he translated them. William Clayton, Joseph's trusted scribe who recorded all sorts of very important revelations and church documents was the one who claimed that. And you expect me to believe that out of nowhere he just noted some random note about the Kinderhook plates that he made up and never mentioned again?

Obviously the conspirators were hoping that eventually Brigham would have tried to translate them. It doesn't matter why they waited so long, we know that they created them, and the church has already admitted that. But I guess that footnote in History of the Church is still around so you may have not understood the latest apologetic argument.

So rather than resorting to lying and slander to defend the church, I'd suggest you start being more honest in your research.

u/richenloaf · 1 pointr/exmormon

I agree with many of the comments here, I think a few soundbites here and there aren't going to do much unless you have a more solid understanding. I would strongly recommend this book
so you can really discuss the issues from a knowledgable standpoint. Besides, maybe you will find out the Mormon church is really true and he will baptize you. Haha.

u/ThidwickTBHM · 1 pointr/exmormon

Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins has a nice high-level roundup of the prevailing issues in the 1800s North American protestant zeitgeist that wound up in the BoM, too.

u/PostMormon · 1 pointr/exmormon

For a TBM, he does a pretty good job staying neutral, but yes, he has his biases.

You might prefer his:

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

Grant Palmer's book is fantastic.

u/jell-o-him · 1 pointr/exmormon

2 is answered really well in An Insider's View. Essentially, JS knew the bible incredibly well.