Reddit mentions of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

This is the "Holiness to the Lord" parchment, found among Hyrum Smith's belongings after his death. It is further evidence that the Smiths practiced folk magic. A number of similar items were found among his belongings at that time:

Here is the "Saint Peter Bind Them" parchment.

Here is a graphical reproduction of the "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah" parchment.

Here is the inscribed dagger.

...all found among Hyrum's belongings. Also, on Joseph Smith's body was found this Jupiter Talisman.

They won't teach you any of that in Sunday School. For more information I recommend D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

Oooo this is my wheelhouse!

First, I would recommend looking at the Mormon History Association Best Book awards going back to 1966. Quality scholarship, research, and writing are a mainstay with them.

Required reading:

Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John Turner / Brigham Young: American Moses by Leonard Arrington

Considered two of the best books about early Utah and the Brigham Young years. Arrington's book was considered groundbreaking when he wrote it, and Turner's book brings in the valuable perspective of the non-Mormon writing about Young. For many Mormons, Turner's book will be less sympathetic to Young than Arrington's, but Turner also worked closely with the Church Archives (and spoke glowingly about them and that process), so his research had access to some better sources. If you need a primer for Brigham Young, I recommend Arrington's book. For a Brigham Young graduate level course, I recommend Turner.

Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview by Michael Quinn

To understand much of what happened in early Mormonism, you must understand the role that folk magic played in the lives of Americans in the 1800s. Quinn's research at this time was top notch, and he was a quickly rising star among Mormon historians. Considered one of his best works, and foundational to the understanding things like seer stones, divining rods, visions, and everything else that happened in the early church days.

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince

Covers late 1940s - 1960s Mormonism, one of the "rising moments" of Mormonism when we went from a Utah-church to a worldwide church. Prince had amazing access to the journals of President McKay's secretary, which led to some candid discussions about things like the publishing of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie, blacks and the priesthood, ecumenical outreach, and politics.

Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball / Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball

Ed was Pres. Kimball's son, and the books cover both the apostle years and presidency years of Spencer W. Kimball. If you had to choose one, get Lengthen Your Stride, but make sure it has the CD that comes with the book. This has the unabridged manuscript prior to the Deseret Book edits, which is much more interesting.

By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens (heck...anything by Terryl Givens!)

I'll admit - I'm a Terryl Givens fanboy. By the Hand of Mormon was the one that first got me in to him, mostly because he took the Book of Mormon as a serious work of literature to examine it's merits. It's not as devotional as many traditional LDS books about the Book of Mormon (it was put out by Oxford University Press), but it really gave me a deeper appreciation for the Book of Mormon as contemporary literature. Also check out Viper on the Hearth (Mormons on myth and heresy), People of Paradox (Mormon culture), When Souls had Wings (the pre-existence in Western thought), and so many others.

And just because I'm a big book nerd, here's the list of books that are on my desk right now that I can give you quick reviews if you want:

• Leonard Arrington and the Writing of Mormon History by Greg Prince
  
• The Mormon Jesus: A Biography by John Turner
  
• Mormon Feminism: Essential Writings, edited by Brooks, Steenblik and Wheelwright
  
• Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness by W. Paul Reeve
  
• Pedestals and Podiums: Utah Women, Religious Authority and Equal Rights by Martha Sonntag Bradley
  
• A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine & Church History, edited by Laura Harris Hales
  
• Glorious in Persecution: Joseph Smith, American Prophet 1839-1844 by Martha Bradley Evans
  
• The Mormon Church & Blacks: A Documentary History, edited by Harris & Bringhurst
  
• From the Outside Looking In: Essays on Mormon History, Theology and Culture, edited by Neilson & Grow
  
• Out of Obscurity: Mormonism since 1945, edited by Mason & Turner
  
• Mormonism & American Politics, edited by Balmer & Riess
  
• Seeking the Promised Land: Mormons and American Politics by Campbell, Green & Monson
  
• A Book of Mormons: Latter-day Saints on a Modern-Day Zion, edited by Jensen & McKay-Lamb
  
• Revelations in Context: The Stories Behind the Sections of the Doctrine & Covenants by the LDS Church
  
• Natural Born Seer: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1805-1830 by Richard S. Van Wagoner
  
• Revelatory Events: Three Case Studies of the Emergence of New Spiritual Paths by Ann Taves (looking at Mormonism, Alcoholics Anonymous and A Course in Miracles)
  
• A House Full of Females: Plural Marriage and Women's Rights in Early Mormonism, 1835-1870 by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
  
• Baring Witness: 36 Mormon Women Talk Candidly about Love, Sex, and Marriage edited by Holly Welker

Magic Parchment photo and discussion

Canes and whatnot

More from earlier Reddit discussions

This book by Quinn

Edit to add: This book by the Tanners There is a sample of the first 6 pages for free online, you can read all about the Jupiter talisman in those first few pages.

Check out D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magical World View if you haven't already. There's all kinds of good stuff there.

The field of early Mormon history is filled with faithful history, written by believers and critical history that believers would call "anti-mormon". For example, Rough Stone Rolling is a highly respected biography of Joseph Smith written by an quality historian but that historian is still a believing Latter-Day Saint. I'll give you an example of the differences. When describing Joseph's use of a seer stone to locating buried treasure Bushman describes these activities as Joseph's prophetic training and he is developing the skills needed to later use that stone to translate the Reformed Egyptian writing for the Book of Mormon. A secular historian doesn't begin with the a priori assumption that magic rocks exist in the world and people may need to train to use them. In choosing a naturalistic description of Joseph's behavior the reader may see that as an attack on Joseph's credibility as a prophet.

The one book that I believe reasonably walks the line between the two would be Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magical World View

Here is a great book about it:

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

It wasn't just Smith Jr and the peep stone (whitewashed to "seer stone",) there were lots of other magical practices the Smith family engaged in. From dowsing that has been scrubbed from the D&C (now listed as the "Gift of Aaron", you know, the one with the staff that allegedly turned into a snake?) to animal sacrifice and the nature of the solstice and what it had to do with recovering the mythical golden plates, the Smiths were deeply engaged in folk magic and the occult. Smith Jr had a Jupiter talisman in his pocket at his death that you can get a replica of today on eBay, and hairs from his and Hyrum's head were placed in walking canes that can be seen at the Daughters of the Pioneers museum today.

One more thing: Smith Jr supposedly learned how to scam people use a seer stone from another seer, Sally Chase and (allegedly) used her stone to locate his first one. I believe it was simply an attempt to legitimize his own scamming by showing he learned from another confidence schemer. Smith Jr never found any treasure that was recovered with his peep stone other than the golden plates, which no one has ever seen, including none of the 3 or 8 witnesses or anyone else. And where are the plates today? Taken away in to heaven? Really?!?

Also consider the method by which the Book of Mormon was "translated".

It was done the same way Joseph would look for treasure. How successful was he at that? That method of treasure seeking also got him in trouble with the law.

Read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.

Actually....

Magical beliefs were prevalent in the US during this time. Smith was not the first. There is an amazing book by Michael Quinn called Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

The Mormon church is rich as FUCK.

And they are one of the few established religions that take $$-making so seriously as to schedule annual settlements with their members.

I like the pre-prohibition Mormonism that dealt in the occult like Jupiter Talismans, seeing stones, completely mis translated papyrii (the PoGP sure is a fun read), and other cool out-there shit.

Post capitulation (ditching polygamy for statehood, changing/enforcing the WoW during prohibition, Elohim deciding black people were cool as of '78) Mormonism is boring AF.

This is the good stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View was on my reading list, but I eventually (and recently) lost interest in reading anymore about Mormonism. I might get back around to it eventually. I did read Studies of the Book of Mormon by B.H. Roberts and An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, by Grant Palmer. From what I understand of The Magic World View, a lot of the same themes are covered in those other two books.

Check out the book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View if this sparks your interest.

Bret Metcalfe’s Book demonstrates how the first books of the BoM were produced at the end of the “translation “ process after the rest of the book had been written because of the loss of the 166 pages Joseph continued on and did not backtrack to first produce Nephi until the end of the process. He shows how the specific details about Christ were written after the later portion of the story had been produced and how vague Joseph is in the first few books with names and places and the story as he perhaps could not remember the names or details written in the 116 pages of the book of Lehi.

Dan Vogel’s you tube accounts demonstrate how the BoM directly deals with issues in Joseph’s home and family issues in an attempt to bring family together on theological issues and draws on the popular issues of the day such as the presumed advanced lighter skinned peoples who were responsible for the mounds and advanced civilizations they observed.

Michael Quinn’s Early Mormonism and Magic World View truly provides the context for Joseph’s treasure digging and how the BOM fits into the magic world perspective even to the day Joseph looked for the plates to have significance in the magic calendar. It is not valid to view the history without the magic overlay.

The most important thing to discuss is the spirit and elevation emotion see https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/08/premium-fix-faith-crisis-one-weird-trick-wood-vs-steel-tools/


https://www.discoverbooks.com/New-Approaches-to-the-Book-of-Mormon-Exploration-p/1560850175.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjw753rBRCVARIsANe3o44oLXnpzGkS8gnEgABdjlmH8YPThwelpNYor5d3N75kKSd8g662I3waAjxbEALw_wcB

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv91bBcxP_pnTAArZuIJqFUPuj8zS2Xwa

Not only are the borrowings not well known among Mormons, but even those who do hear of the close resemblances between Mormonism and Freemasonry and their rites often denounce those who suggest a relation. D. Michael Quinn was excommunicated from the LDS church for his research into and publication of the similarities between Mormonism and hermeticism and the influences of the latter upon the former, as others historians have argued as well. I should add that Quinn still believes in the LDS movement, even after his excommunication.

Feel free to skip over my essay, and down to my recommendations. The essay is intended to add some context for someone trying to understand mormonism from the outside.

The mainstream branch of mormonism, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is starting to diverge significantly from its historical roots. The folk magic/occult practices found at the church's origin are now considered completely foreign and abhorrent. The same for the practice of polygamy, it is disavowed and a distant memory within the mainstream church. The membership hardly remembers how central of tenet plural marriage once was. It isn't a relevant part of the religion anymore.

The original church is being watered down and the rough spots sanded over and evened out. The temple rituals originally included some very disconcerting elements and language. They have been significantly revised over time. First, they modified their nude bathing initiation to be a semi-nude washing off with a small hose. Now, as I understand it, all washing is omitted. Initiates are allowed to wear undergarments and not be naked under a sheet. Now, the officiant doesn't touch the initiate at all, if I understand correctly. Also, the death oaths for revealing the secrets of the temple are gone, as is the oath of vengeance against the United States of America for not preventing the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

The personal priesthood interviews to determine worthiness are another thing that is being changed and toned down within mainstream mormonism. The change is being driven by new order mormons, NOMs, who are putting their ward bishop on notice that they won't tolerate the bishop asking invasive questions of their children. I don't think that would've have gone over very well when I was a youth in the church. My parents would have been excommunicated for trying to dictate terms to the bishop. Still, today, I assume that some bishops would not accept terms presented by the NOMs.

I believe studying the church's origins helps to show that the church is not the one-true church that many of us have been taught that it was from birth. Studying the early history shows their practices were even more cultish than today. That said, outsiders would still consider their current secretive, masonic-based temple rituals plenty cultish, though.

Outsiders need to be able to separate its history from its current practice. Except for the temple, the LDS church's Sunday and weekly worship services are standard fare, albeit with a significant time commitment each week. Most of their services are about propping up their mythology, with some socialization- getting to know one another thrown in. They don't delve too deeply into any troubling elements of scripture, or of church history or former practices. The lessons are standardized by committee. Certain topics are definitely too hot to handle. If I were to say one thing about it, I think church is now more about being one of the ways that is used to present their family into the community, especially in highly mormon communities. It's a way to primp and preen, and try to impress the neighbors. Parents thoroughly wash, dress, and parade their families before the other members of the ward. The goal is to appear to be the perfect mormon family. To add the final piece to the puzzle, the family must fall into line and prove they are worthy of respect, that means regular participation in temple rituals. To be eligible to attend the temple, the member must affirm they agree with and try to follow the current theology of the church 100%, but mostly that boils down to agreeing to pay 10% of their income to the church. At this point, I think the temple rituals are a lot like Tevia said in Fiddler on the Roof in the lead in to Tradition! They don't know why they do those rituals, but it was good enough for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so it must be good for something. The faithful would say it is a requirement to seal a legal agreement with god; it is buying an insurance policy that says families are forever.

I'll stop here, except for stating that a new dynamic is emerging in the church. People are quitting, either by simply not attending (going inactive), or by formally resigning. Issues like the church's support for prop 8 begin to call into question whether the church is on the right side of history. They see the tremendous cash outlay required to build their mall and wonder whether the church is making the right kind of financial choices for a so-called charitable organization. As noted above, these issues can lead a member to begin to question whether their church is everything it claims to be. Is it the one true church? That question runs headlong into the buzzsaw of early mormon history. The information is available online that shows that it is not what it claims to be. Of course, this type of research can lead to loss of faith. What happens when only one partner in a marriage learns the truth? How should young adults respond to their parents' expectations for them knowing that missionary work for something they don't believe in is not something they are wiling to do? How should young women attempt to break out of the rigid sex roles and limited life plan offered by mormonism? I discovered these existential, heartbreaking, and painful experiences detailed here on this subreddit. The politics of how to deal with that fallout when the blinders come off and people face a new reality is what the subreddit is mostly about. It provides a new community for those who are looking for a new worldview, free from the clear cut and rigid worldview presented from childhood as the truth.

Recommendations

• Brodie's No Man Knows My History
  
  
• Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, which you've read.
  
  
• Bhattacharya's Secrets and Wives
  
  
• Church Administrative Handbook, Instruction for stake presidents and bishops. (In two volumes: one is publicly available; the other is available if you look hard.)
  
  Next on my reading list:
  
  
• D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
  
  I am about halfway through with Jessop's Escape, which you've read.
  
  Other media:
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 200: top ten changes to the temple
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 176: top reasons to leave mormonism
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 175: top reasons to stay in mormonism
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 192: Community of Christ, the most liberal branch of mormonism, by far.
  
  Other subreddits you might like to take a look at...
  
  
• exit stories
  
  
• bestof exmormon
  
  

I’m an exmormon! This book will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about Joseph Smith and his magical practices.

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Also, if you want to know why members like me are leaving, this website explains all the dirty laundry of Mormonism.

Cesletter.org

A relevant passage about Joseph Smith and magic in the ces letter:

“In order to truly understand the Book of Mormon witnesses and the issues with their claims, one must understand the magical worldview of many people in early 19th century New England. These are people who believed in folk magic, divining rods, visions, second sight, peep stones in hats, treasure hunting (money digging or glass looking), and so on.”

If you have any more questions about the real story of the book of mormon without being preached at, feel free to ask me or the exmormon subreddit.

I was just looking for both of these on Audible, too. Thanks for the tip to request the audio version. I just requested it for both, too. I'd appreciate it if others did, too:

http://www.amazon.com/An-Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/

This one, this one, and then this one. In fact, read those even if you don't go.

As for Freemasonry itself, you will have to be very discerning with the information you come across, and especially on reddit.

In the Golden Verses of Pythagoras, it is said,
>
> -> 30. Never do anything which thou dost not understand.
>
> -> 31. But learn all thou ought'st to know, and by that means thou wilt lead a very pleasant life.

I advise against joining Freemasonry as a means to contrast it with Mormonism. A prominent feature of the Mormon temple ceremony is the trade of oaths with penalties for guarded information. This is also present in Freemasonry, and though they would portray themselves as benevolent, there is much to cast this into doubt.

I'm happy to direct you towards information relevant to your search. Maybe this information is not exactly what you are asking for, but I'm sure it will broaden and deepen your understanding of the topic at hand.

• 
  Joseph Smith and Kabbalah:
  The Occult Connection by Lance S. Owens
  
• 
  Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn (Amazon)
  
  Both of these works were rigorously researched and have cited sources. Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View has over 300 pages in notes and sources. It is my opinion that if you don't have an understanding of the esoteric, occult foundation of Mormonism, then you don't understand Mormonism.
  
  Personally, it has allowed me to temper my understanding of Early Mormonism and the actions of my ancestors. For some, learning this may only condemn it further.
  
  After finding the edges of the current popularly held views of scientific materialistic reductionism, we are left looking at chaos and nondeterminism with wonder. There are so many evidences that our universe and our existence is much more meaningful than society would admit. Without passing judgement on the details of early Mormon history, I now have greater context for understanding it.
  
  If you should find yourself lost in searching for answers within the paradigm of linear thinking, send me a message. I have found that some of the greatest minds have been marginalized or silenced for embracing nonconforming, nonlinear, nondeterministic thinking.

Thank you for this reply. I forgot about that Article of Faith, that's very useful in instances like this. Mormons certainly do have an interesting history. I was so shocked when I learned about all the unpleasantries about church history (with the scrying, the Jupiter Talisman, etc). It definitely helped drive me away form that religion, because it wasn't what I though it was. But actually, now that I'm more into "the occult" side of things, that bitterness that I felt about the church has worn off and it's become more of a fascination.

On a related note, I've been wanting to get this book, Early Mormonism and the Magick World View. Have you read this, by chance? If so, what did you think about it?

Oh certainly he was very controversial, as was polygamy, but the age of the bride wouldn't have been at all in my understanding, and certainly doesn't constitute pedophelia. My great grandmother was around the same age when she was married.

Reread over my post in the other thread and I think you'll understand my point. I'm not supporting pedophelia or polygamy, I simply think it's unreasonable to lampoon Joseph Smith as a pedophile for having a 14 year old bride. Though I have no moral issue personally with either (a 14 year old bride that is, not pedophelia), they do both seem like really bad ideas. And of course a 14 year old in our culture today is rarely (if ever) prepared to make that kind of commitment.

Scharlatan, mad genius, or divine seer, he led a fantastically interesting life no matter how you judge him. Early Mormonism and the magic world view is a terribly interesting book if you're interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Magic World View is a great book, but the first half -- the section that traces the development of folk magic in the West -- is so dense and hard to get through that I usually suggest it after some more accessible material. But Quinn's insights into magical thinking, folk practices, and superstitious traditions in 19th century America and among Mormonism's founders are fascinating.

D. Michael Quinn also talks about the talisman and other magical practices that JS was involved with. For a more thorough discussion check out his book.

*Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

> Can you think of any parts of the Smith narrative that don't fit with the sex-and-power idea, outside of trivialities?

Have you ever read anything about Joseph Smith from a sympathetic perspective? I don't mean apologist literature. I mean work that is actually trying to understand Joseph Smith, rather than to support a preexisting thesis. Things like Rough Stone Rolling, In Heaven as it is on Earth, American Crucifixion, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, etc. When the events of Joseph Smith's life are put into their full, rich historical context, it quickly becomes apparent that J.S.'s motivations were complex and variegated. Certainly sex and power played a role, but so did sincere, intense religious belief, a desire to unite and redeem his family, and a firm conviction that God was working through him. For instance, the money digging events can only be understood when put into the context of early 19th century folk religion, as Quinn does in Early Mormonism. This is not an avaricious Joseph Smith, but someone who is trying to help lift his family out of poverty using methods of folk religion that were ubiquitous in the region.

D. Michal Quinn literally wrote a book called Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/ref=nodl_

And, he has done interviews and podcasts explaining what he researched. Try Mormon Discussion, or Mormon Stories. There are plenty of exmo podcasts that “touch that topic”, and have a context to frame it in so the discussion is interesting and relevant. Not just a bunch of bro’s who don’t have a clue what they are talking about who end up on unrelated tangents as often as they are on topic.