#16,913 in Books
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Reddit mentions of Gospel Fictions
Sentiment score: 2
Reddit mentions: 6
We found 6 Reddit mentions of Gospel Fictions. Here are the top ones.
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- Used Book in Good Condition
Features:
Specs:
| Height | 9 Inches |
| Length | 6 Inches |
| Number of items | 1 |
| Release date | January 1988 |
| Weight | 0.50926782522 Pounds |
| Width | 0.39 Inches |
This is only a summary because it gets kind of long, but the bullet points are this:
The identifications of Mark and Matthew come from descriptions of books given in a book written by an early church father named Papias. We no longer have any copies of this book. What we know of it is only what is quoted from it in the 4th Century by Constantine's church historian, Eusebius.
Eusebius quotes Papias as having said the following
>And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. [This is what is related by Papias regarding Mark; but with regard to Matthew he has made the following statements]: Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.
The "presbyter" referred to is a shadowy figure called John the Presbyter (or John the Elder - presbyter means "elder"), who was allegedly a teacher of Papias. Eusebius says this was not the same person as the Apostle even though another church father named Irenaeus mixed them up.
Note that Papias does not quote from Mark or Matthew or give any information which would identify them specifically as the Canonical books. Those descriptions were used to identify anonymous books. The above mentioned Irenaeus decided that THIS must be the book written by Mark, and THIS must be the book written by Matthew.
The reason these identifications are now rejected by critical scholars is because the descriptions don't match the Canonical books. Papias says that Mark wrote down Peter's memoirs verbatim, and not in chronological order or any other order.
Mark's Gospel is very ordered and employs Greek literary sctructures called chiasms that can't happen from spontaneous speech (it would be like somebody speaking in iambic pentameter or exclusively in limericks). That becomes even more unlikely when the alleged speaker was an Aramaic speaking fisherman who would have known only pigeon Greek at best.
In addition, it needs to be remembered that the Gospel of Mark does not itself claim to be a memoir of Peter's, nor does the author claim to have known him. Furthermore, Mark's Gospel is anti-Petrine in tone and portrays Peter as an unredeemed coward who runs away and denies Jesus, and who himself is denied any witness of the resurrection. Why would a memoir of Peter's leave out any witness of a risen Jesus?
Mark is also written in a 3rd person, omniscient voice and includes scenes for which Peter could not have been a witness because, even internally to Mark's narrative, he wasn't there. The baptism by John the temptations in the wilderness, the prayer in Gethsemane and trial before the Sanhedrin for example.
Mark's Gospel also contains a number of geographical and legal errors would not be expected from a witness.
There are also scenes which appear to be based on rewritings of stories from the OT (particularly stories about Elijah and Elisha), but that's a whole other long argument. I'll just refer you to Randel Helms' Gospel Fictions.
So the evidence for Mark being written by a secretary of Peter's relies on a quotation from a lost book by a guy who says another guy told him that somebody named Mark wrote a memoir of Peter's, but describes a book which does not match the Canonical, which does not claim to be a memoir of Peter and which has internal evidence contradicting such a hypothesis.
Papias also says that Matthew compiled a collection of "sayings of the Lord" (Logia) in Hebrew.
Canonical Matthew does not claim to be written by Matthew or by any witness at all. It's not a sayings Gospel and it was composed in Greek, not Hebrew. It copies extensively from from Mark and the Septuagint (both Greek sources) and probably another Greek source called Q. The Q material is basically just sayings and may have, in a circuitous way, gone back to a collection of genuine Jesus sayings, but Matthew uses Mark almost exclusively as his narrative source. Why would a witness use a non-witness as a source?
This is already getting windier than I intended, so I'll rush through Luke and John.
The identification of "Luke the physician" as the author of Luke-Acts comes from Paul mentioning a companion of that name in Philemon and two mentions in the pseudo-Pauline epistles, Colossians and 2 Timothy. Because some passages in Acts are written in the 1st person plural (commonly called the "we passages"), it was assumed that the author must have been a companion of Paul's. Paul mentions a dude named Luke. Bingo, the author must have been this Luke dude.
The author himself never calls himself Luke or says he knew Paul. He was writing pretty late (around the turn of the 1st century), he says some things that contradict Paul's authentic epistles. His Gospel uses the same sources as Matthew (Mark and Q) indicating a lack of access to witnesses (in his prologue to his Gospel he says straight up that he is using previously written sources).
There is more than one theory about the we passages, including one argument that it was an ancient Greek literary device used for sea voyages or that it was a previously written source used by Luke. Bart Ehrman says that he thinks that somebody else wrote a fake account of travels with Paul and that Luke thought it was real.
The identification of John of Zebedee as the author of the Fourth Gospel first comes from Irenaeus, who identifies him as the "beloved disciple" (the Gospel itself never says who the beloved disciple was. The inference is made because it also never mentions John of Zebedee, so the reasoning was that the BD must have been J of Z).
For a variety of reasons, including the highly sophisticated Greek (from an uneducated, Aramaic speaking fisherman who the book of Acts explicitly says was illiterate), the late dating, the highly developed Christology, the long, developed theological speeches which would not be plausibly remembered and are not corroborated in the synoptics and the reflection and knowledge of the schism between Jews and Christians including the anachronistic placement of the expulsion of Christians from synagogues within the life of Jesus.
The last chapter also seems to imply that the Beloved Disciple had already died relative to the writing of that chapter.
As with the other Gospels, there is no real evidence in favor of the tradition and there is internal and external evidence against it.
Tangentially related to the Christian/Pagan thing, Richard Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible? and Randall Helm's Gospel Fictions both demonstrate how the Bible arose as an amalgam of ancient myth and oral tradition. I believe Dan Barker also covers some of that ground in Godless.
Paragraph 1: "It pains Jehovah when his servants are treated unfairly. He will make sure that justice is served."
Yeah, eventually...
Paragraph 2: "The Mosaic Law ended in 33 C.E. when the Christian congregation was established."
Nooooo, that's not quite what Jesus said...
Matthew 5: 17 - 19 [JW online bible]: "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. [Governing Body, are you listening???] But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens."
I notice they skipped that bible reference in paragraphs 2, 3 & 4...
Paragraph 5: "When did Jesus teach? He taught during his ministry on earth. (Matt. 4: 23) He also taught his followers shortly after he was resurrected."
Yet oddly he said nothing about peddling corporate literature from door to door...
Paragraph 6: "Where are Jesus’ teachings recorded? The four Gospels record many of the things Jesus said and did on earth."
Those four gospels contradict each other - a LOT. https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Fictions-Randel-Helms/dp/0879755725
Paragraph 7: "Jesus’ teachings cover all aspects of life. So the law of the Christ governs what we do at home, at work or at school, and in the congregation."
Hilariously Jesus got the vital part about washing one's hands before eating meals DEAD WRONG. So I'm not sure about the accuracy and efficacy of the rest of his "laws", either.
Paragraph 8: "A well-made house built on a solid foundation makes those who live in it feel safe and secure."
Not if the owner of that house has been coerced or guilted into handing over the title of the house to a publishing corporation pulling a scam on religious people...
Paragraph 9: "Jesus willingly put the needs of others ahead of his own. Above all, he showed great love by surrendering his life in behalf of others."
Yeah, that's called making a human sacrifice. Who says the god of the Old Testament underwent a personality change when it came to the New Testament?
Wow, paragraphs 10 & 11 are a pack of lies!
"We can imitate Jesus by putting the needs of others ahead of our own." Aka co-dependency, an unhealthy form of attachment. Also - according to the New Testament, that also includes human sacrifice of his followers, if such is "demanded" of them.
"Jesus showed how deeply Jehovah cares about his worshippers." (Human sacrifice, anyone? See Matthew 10: 38, 16: 24, Mark 8: 34, and Luke 14: 27....)
"Jehovah is eager to welcome back a lost sheep who repents and returns to the congregation."
Funny how the congregation elders have failed to get that message...
And the fun continues in paragraph 12: "We view each of our brothers and sisters as valuable and precious, and we gladly welcome back “a lost sheep” who returns to Jehovah."
What a sick joke of hypocrisy spoken with forked tongues.
Paragraph 13: "Love fellow believers as Jesus loved you. That requires a self-sacrificing love. We are to love our brothers and sisters even more than we love ourselves. We must love them to the point of being willing to give up our life for them,"
Yet oddly there's nothing preventing the petty gossiping about minutia and nasty tattling to the elders.
Paragraph 14: "... or we take time off from secular work to help with disaster relief..."
Still drumming the disaster relief money pot, I see...
And: "We are also helping to make our congregation a place where each individual can feel safe and secure."
Even the pedophiles... Too bad about the kids, though. Their parents should have kept a closer eye on them.
Paragraph 15: “Justice,” as used in the Bible, basically means to do what God considers to be right and to do so without partiality"
Seriously? Have these fools never read the bible? Uzzah, Uriah, the daughter of Jephthah, the unnamed concubine of the Levite in Judges 19, the sons of Saul, all the little babies (and all the animals and plants) drowned in the "Flood", all the little babies and animals and plants due to be killed at "Armageddon"...
Paragraph 16: "He preached without prejudice to all, rich and poor. He was never harsh or abusive in his treatment of women."
Pity WT and the Governing Body don't follow his example. They cuddle up to the rich and denigrate women to second-class status.
Paragraph 17: "...and preaching to all who are willing to listen—regardless of their social or religious background."
Oddly the WT Society seems desperate to preach to people who'd rather just be left alone, too. Search "get rid of JW" on Reddit for a glimpse of the number of people who don't want to be pestered by bible-thumpers, especially early-ish on a weekend.
Paragraph 18: "Second, consider what Jesus taught about justice. He taught principles that would help his followers to treat others fairly. "
CoughTwo [eye]WitnessRuleCough...
Paragraph 19: "And if we have been a victim of injustice in Satan’s world, we can take comfort in knowing that Jehovah will cause justice to be done for us."
But isn't it nice to realize that bad old "Satan's World" will do its best to help protect us and cause justice to be done for us whenever evil people in the congregations victimize us...?
Paragraph 20: "Under the law of the Christ, how should those in authority treat others?"
...Getting a little too big for our britches, elders and ministerial servants? "Authority" doesn't mean untrained volunteers in a religious setting; it means secular authorities with the power and training to investigate and truly punish wrongdoers with something harsher than having their "privileges" taken away.
Paragraph 21: "Some men may find it difficult to show such love, perhaps because they were not raised in an environment where treating others fairly and lovingly was valued."
Gasp! You mean - like those who are second, third and fourth-generation (and more) JWs???
Paragraph 22: "Elders must remember that the “sheep” do not belong to them."
HAW! Unfortunately, neither does the kingdom hall, even though the elders and other congregation members may have paid for it and helped build it!
Paragraph 23: "What is the role of elders in handling cases of serious wrongdoing? Their role is different from that of judges and elders under the Law that God gave Israel. Under that Law, appointed men handled not only spiritual matters but also civil and criminal cases."
Ah, HAW HAW HAW HA HA! [snort!] Seriously? Elders have been [mis]handling criminal cases for decades, especially those involving criminal sexual predators who prey upon children and underage teens!
Paragraph 24: "How do elders handle the spiritual aspects of serious wrongdoing? They use the Scriptures to weigh matters and make decisions."
So... Asking a teenager or young adult how many times they were penetrated, whether they enjoyed it, whether they pleasured the other person, whether they performed oral upon each other, is all SCRIPTURAL and therefore fair game for the crusty old elders' lascivious questions???
Paragraph 25: "Still, we are living in a world where “wicked men” have advanced “from bad to worse.” ... We must not let down our guard."
Especially not in a pedophile-friendly environment.
And for next week:
"How can the Christian congregation reflect God’s justice when dealing with child sexual abuse?"
Can't wait to see that demonstration of insane, self-serving hypocrisy....
IIRC, this book has the best run down of the birth contradictions that I've ever read.The book is short, easily readable, and gets to the point.
I'm an atheist, and most will hate me for this, but I don't recommend The God Delusion. There are better books, and Dawkins is much better when he writes about biology.
Atheist worldview book: I recommend Sense and Goodness without God by Richard Carrier
Books about Christianity (there are so many to recommend, but these are some favorites):
I'm a big fan of Spong, so I would recommend any of his books. Also Robert M. Price is worth looking into, he has lots of free sermons and writings available from when he was a liberal pastor and theologian, which he is not anymore.
I got kind of lazy with the links, but anyways here is my collection of Christianity related books, links etc.
Listening:
Books:
Links