Reddit mentions of Salvation (And How We Got It Wrong)

If you're interested in a book, I wrote this to answer that very question.

If you'd just like to peruse some blogposts about it, try this and this. There are a few other posts on the blog that also deal with it.

/u/Im_just_saying is an Anglican bishop and poster here who's written a fantastic book that I think would answer some of the questions you have, especially about the nature of sin and how exactly Jesus saved us.

If you want the general gist of it, check out this sermon he did.

Penal substitution isn't an idea that's present in the OT. Jewish animal sacrifices were never about God punishing an innocent animal in order to forgive the people of Israel.

To quote /u/Rrrrrrr777:

>"Forgiveness is obtained in Judaism by admitting that you've done something wrong, working to correct it, and deciding not to do it anymore. The sacrifices were an integral part of daily life, but they were an outward symbolic representation that helped to bring people closer to God by being forced to confront death head-on in the hopes that the realization would reaffirm their commitment to keeping the commandments to the best of their ability."

Also, if you're questioning PSA, I highly recommend reading Salvation (And How We Got It Wrong) by our very own /u/im_just_saying. It's a very short and accessible book, and really helped me to grasp the flaws inherent in penal substitution.

Paging /u/Im_just_saying. We have another case of disagreement with Penal Substitutionary Atonement!

He wrote a book on this sort of thing.

Sorry I guess I should have been more clear, it does show up if you go to this link, but it says that it is not in stock, I don't buy things if they are not in stock because who knows if they will ever get more stock in.

I don't know what kind of spare money you have, but I highly recommend you read Salvation (And How We Got It Wrong) from /u/im_just_saying. He does a really good job of talking about where the idea of PSA came from, and what the predominant theory of atonement was in early Christianity. For a brief overview of it read about the Christus Victor wiki

> Even in the Old Testament individual sins needed atonement and covering.

Yet the place for dealing with that was wholly communal.

> Jesus' blood covers our sins on an individual level

I've just read this book which notes, when we talk of Jesus's sacrifice, he is referred to as our Mercy Seat – again, the place of communal appeal to God for forgiveness of the nation's sin(s). No doubt those sins are committed by individuals, but God relates his forgiveness to the whole.

I don't doubt we are on some level saved individually, though. Rather, is our experience as one who is already "washed in the blood" one that approximates a "personal relationship with Jesus"?

Bruh a Bishop from the Anglican Church of NA wrote a great book on this.

https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-How-We-Got-Wrong/dp/1483904873

Also just to call him. /u/im_just_saying

You clearly need to read this book!

I'm not offended, I was just a little frustrated because I felt like I was having to repeat myself too much. I'm sorry if I got short with you.

>The question is can our God and Judge forgo the payment for sins and remain just?

Yes. It is perfectly just to forgive someone that has wronged you because you are the one wronged, and if you do not wish to have someone punished for the wrong doing, it ought to be your call to make.

The rest of this is going to take me going through and reading the scriptures you quoted and then responding, which will take a while, but I'm about to go to sleep. I'll hopefully be able to get back to you tomorrow though. And as for a book, I'm glad you asked! Our own /u/im_just_saying wrote this book a little while back on this exact topic. It's a short and easy read, but a good read, and I'm sure he'd be open to answer some questions for you that I haven't covered.

I read it, not a big fan of Craig and like I said, I passionately disagree with PSA so there's little point in trying to convince me of it's validity. But on a different note, if you are interested in learning more about non-PSA views of the cross, I highly recommend this book that I just read the other day:

http://www.amazon.com/Salvation-And-How-Got-Wrong/dp/1483904873/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398025817&sr=8-1&keywords=salvation+and+how+we+got+it+wrong

This is based on a common lay formulation of what happened on the cross. However it is not an actual doctrine that (most) denominations officially believe. There are a variety of other interpretations that are too numerous and complicated to get into here. There is a very good and short book on this
If your interested. Written by a redditor no less. If not that is also your prerogative.