Reddit mentions of Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality

You are not trash. You are made in the image of God and he loves you.

You might find the book Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality by Wesley Hill helpful. Hill is a gay man who teaches theology at an Episcopal seminary. The book contains his reflections on his own life and those of other Christians.

PT 2.
---
I've found hope and explanations in several people's stories. Two of whom are alive today. I wish to tell you about them and provide some other resources for you.

Wesley Hill is a gay Christian who believes in what scripture says about sexuality and strives to live accordingly. We all have struggles. We have have our temptations. But he doesn't downplay anything. He doesn't say "Oh well" and ignore it. He thinks critically (currently going after a Ph.D in theology at Oxford) and talks openly about these topics. Here are a few articles by him which may prove enlightening. He also has a book called "Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality".

Here are a few articles by him:

A--“A Few Like You”: Will the Church be the Church for Homosexual Christians?


B--What Place Is There for Celibacy? Wesley Hill on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality

Christopher Yuan, who lived for many years as an openly-gay man before becoming a Christian, has also provided answers for me. Here is his website.. He has a book which he wrote with his mother entitled "Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son's Journey to God. A Broken Mother's Search for Hope."

Finally, here is a lengthy article about sexual identity and the church:

At the Intersection of Religious and Sexual Identities: A Christian Perspective on Homosexuality

by Mark A. Yarhouse

Starting at part II on that last article really delves into the issues with Christians, who believe in the "traditional" view of sexuality, who nonetheless have same-sex attractions. Because too many churches focus on "change" (not of behavior but of attractions and feelings), there is a huge void in identity. They can't accept gay labels because that implies they intend to engage in homosexual relationships. They don't feel attracted to the opposite sex, so they do not qualify as straight. The author challenges Churches to be a place where people can find their identity in Christ. The goal is not "heterosexuality"-- can God change our attractions? Yes, of course, he's God, but that doesn't mean it's likely....-- just as when we become Christians not all temptations go away (they may intensify!) our sexual passions do not go away. The goal is "Holy sexuality". As Christopher Yuan remarks God says "Be Holy as I am Holy" not "Be heterosexual as I am heterosexual". Holy sexuality involves either sex within marriage (with our First parents, Adam and Eve, as the example-- one man and one woman completing one another) or celibacy.

For a scholarly look at what scripture says I'd recommend "The Bible and Homosexual Practice" by Robert Gagnon. It answers many of the revisionist interpretations thoroughly.
EDIT: However, as I've been warned by others, only look at what Gagnon has serious credentials in--scriptural interpretation. When he gets into other areas, his arguments are not as strong. A good place to see how different views on this issue interpret scripture (and, in my opinion, where the "traditional view" clearly has the superior interpretation) please see the much shorter: "Two Views: Homosexuality and the Bible."

EDIT:

• Here's a source available online: Richard Hay's chapter from "The Moral Vision of the New Testament" on homosexuality.
  
  
  
  ---
  P.S. WHY I WROTE THIS WHOLE BIG POST
  ---
  
  
• In the past, I've grown tired of the issue of Christianity's relationship and teaching on gay and lesbian sex and marriage (and other topics relating to GLBT issues and Christianity) constantly popping up on this subreddit. Here's one post here where I sort of blew up about it. Maybe because I just didn't want to talk about it. But part of it is people ask about it and become upset with my answers often saying something insinuating that I as a "conservative Christian" only care about bashing gay people and I pay no attention to issues such as greed, Church abuse, gluttony or other vices (how they ascertain this knowledge about me, I will never know). But, honestly, the reason this issue comes up so often is because we are ASKED so often about it-- not necessarily because that's what many of us obsess about it. Though, for some of us, it is a very real part of our lives.
  
  
  
• 
  Because of this, I've decided to finally lay out, positively, as a statement of my personal experience, and not a response, my experience with this question. This is based upon a comment I left on another post. Please tell me if this is FAQ-worthy, I think it may act as a good addition to our short catalog of discussions on this topic.
  
  

If you're looking for any reading on this question, I might recommend:

Side A: Changing Our Mind (David Gushee)

Side B: Gay And Catholic (Eve Tushnet), or Washed and Waiting (Wesley Hill).

Side X: I dont' really have anything for this. This is a super minority position.

I pray for the best in your questioning. The vast majority of Christians do not believe you are committing an offence by having gay preferences, so the vast majority would have no reason to reject you for that.

Not saying that books are the answer, but Wesley Hill might be someone up your alley. In actuality, his book has helped me as a heterosexual tremendously (dealing more with self-loathing in my context) as he struggled to deal with his homosexuality and still be faithful to God.

Here is his current book: Washed and Waiting

His second book is coming out, too: Spiritual Friendship: Finding Love in the Church as a Celibate Gay Christian

Edited to add: This blog may help you.

Reading the experiences, and dialoging with, other gay Christians has helped me tremendously.

Wesley Hill's book Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality is great (and he has a new book coming out in March 2015).

I've heard great things about Eve Tushnet's "Gay and Catholic" as well..

Spiritual Friendship has also explored companionship, friendship, living a celibate life which flourishes and is one of my favorite blogs.
. There I have met a lot of people I talk to regularly.

You may also be interested in "A queer calling"--it's the blog of a self-described Christian, celibate, LGBT couple. They have a lot of posts on friendship, intimacy, gay identity, etc.

I could also post biblical arguments, but that doesn't seem like what you're looking for. You seem to be looking for the "How now should we live?" These sources, conversations with friends, have helped me think about my life in this regard.

Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. Written by a "Gay Celibate Christian" and I think provides a pretty good counterpoint to the emerging understanding of homosexuality and Christianity.

Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul. For those wanting to learn a bit more about Calvinism/Reformed theology, Chosen by God is an easy primer that walks readers through the TULIP of Calvinism. At the end of the day, whether you agree with Sproul's conclusions or not, you will at least have a better understanding of why Reformed Christians believe what we believe.

The whole false dichotomy of "born gay" vs "it's a choice" should be put to an end. Anyone who has read Washed and Waiting or Torn would understand that it isn't a "choice".

As for the question of what God will permit: He permits us to suffer. We are all the time placed in difficult situations, God willing. I'm not suggesting that it pleases God to make us suffer, but that he endures it with us.

As /u/RAZRr1275 has already mentioned, I think that epigenetics likely holds the answer to how a person becomes gay. Neither "born that way", nor "wilfully choosing". The short version of what epigenetics means: Ask yourself this: why, despite all of your cells having identical DNA instructions, do they behave differently. One cell is heart muscle; another is skin; another is a white blood cell. DNA gets modified in the body.

Wikipedia:

> [Epigenetic changes are] stable, long-term alterations in the transcriptional potential of a cell that are not necessarily heritable. Unlike simple genetics based on changes to the DNA sequence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes

The hypothesis fits well with scientific data about the heritability of homosexual attraction, i.e. there is some (but not complete) correlation between identical (monozygotic) twins. If it were purely a genetic phenotype, then this would not be the case.

So it's not a choice (for the vast majority) nor is it something that one is necessarily born with.

Hello OP... I was recommended a few more resources in that thread I told you about. A lot of people in the FB group I'm in are concerned for you, although I don't think any of them are Reddit users - so I thought I'd let you know what they suggested to me.

First off I should say that I think you're right in your interpretation of the Scriptures. I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about that here, so out of respect for you I've tried not to bring it up. But you've probably gathered by now that I lean towards the conservative side of this situation, and again I think you're right in being hesitant to accept a homosexual lifestyle as biblical. I've not seen any good reason to believe the Scriptures are errant or open to interpretation on the subject.

So, on to relaying what people have told me. Apologies if you've heard of any of these already :\

The first is a book called Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality. I've got some left over from an Amazon giftcard so I'm willing to buy it for you if you want.

The second is http://eleisonblog.org/ - he is a gay Christian who frequently writes about his struggles. You can read his bio here. You can also reach him on Twitter @EleisonBlog, he looks to be pretty responsive.

Again you can be assured that the people there will be praying for you. Someone there expressed how frustrating it is that the church (in general) is woefully equipped to handle sexual issues, and I couldn't agree more.

God bless.

I'd first like to start by saying that /u/sleetthefox has two really good recommendations. Then here are some others:

Washed and Waiting

On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

Also, you should encourage your friend to understand that Catholicism means intellectual submission only to those teachings spoken infallibly, and that there is considerable debate on whether or not the Catholic Church should recognize same-sex marriages. The Catechism was not written infallibly (something that I've been corrected on very recently!) and there is a huge body of Catholic literature debating the points of full acceptance of homosexual persons.

Let me know if you have questions!

Yo, i would really love to talk to you one on one about this, so please PM me, or if you happen to be in the Philadelphia area, i would be more than willing to meet up, or phone call or whatever. You're question is super deep and its hard to cover everything in a simple one-size fits all response!! I know the bible pretty well, and I've even spoken publicly on this issue at a panel at Drexel university. I'd be more than happy to share my thoughts and of course you are free to take them, leave them, or even reason through them with me.

regarding being a good christian

>Can I be a good christian (not sinful) and be gay?

yes.

But I think this question merits it's own response. because what makes a "good christian"? This question is super super super important with regards to homosexuality and the bible.

The first thing you need to know is that a christian is someone who believes that Jesus has taken the penalty for their sins. If you understand that god is just, and you understand that your breaking of his law requires just judgment, and you believe that Jesus took that judgment for you on the cross when he died the death we deserve (2 cor 5:21), then you are a christian.

my point is this: BELIEF, and FAITH that jesus died for your sins is a christian a christian. and this is important because no matter what you do, no matter how many times you mess up, no matter what thoughts you have, no matter what desires you have, if you believe that jesus took the penalty so that you don't have to, then you are a christian.


tl;dr there is only one thing required to be a "good christian": faith i.e. belief. But, obviously we are also commanded not to sin.

here's my answer regarding homosexuality and the bible:

>What does the Bible actually say

Well i think that if you are going to use the bible as a guide, "gay sex" as you put it is obviously sinful since it is spelled out clearly in places like Rom 1:26-27 and Leviticus 18:22.

BUT there is a distinct difference between desire and active sinning. The bible says in James 1:15 that desire and sin are separate. Desire can give birth to sin (if we choose to give into our desires) but it doesn't have to (if we choose to deny our sinful desires).

The bible acknowledges that we all have ungodly desires and commands us to deny those desires and follow god (Titus 2:12), (Romans 8:13). You are experiencing ungodly desires toward people of the same sex. I am heterosexual, and married. I sometimes experience ungodly desires toward women that aren not my wife. However, I have made a decision to - like romans 8 says - renounce those desires by the power of god. It doesn't mean those desires go away entirely. It does not mean that now i am never tempted any more. What it means is that i acknowledge those desires when i have them, i agree with god that are ungodly desires, and i choose to not gratify them.

Now, I can only resist ungodly desires because I have the Holy Spirit to help me (Galatians 5:16). If you don't have the holy spirit, you cant resist those desires. if you find it impossible to resist those desires (either physically or fantasizing mentally) it might be because you aren't a christian even though you think you are.

What does this mean for you? you personally experience the ungodly desire of sexual attraction towards people of the same sex. The bible commands you to deny that desire. But you are no different from anyone other man, who also experiences broken sexual desires for people that are not their spouse. You are no more or less sinful than them. Whether or not you choose to gratify the desires you have - that will determine how much you sin

tl;dr you have ungodly sexual desires for people of the same sex. other people have other types of ungodly desires, maybe greed, or hatred. I have ungodly sexual desires for women that aren't my wife. The point of Christianity is NOT that everyone can magically get rid of the desires they dont like. the point is that everyone has the ungodly desires, and people fulfill them, but jesus took the penalty for that so we dont have to.


>Or is it just the flesh talking

yes, mostly. i personally also believe that the devil has plans and schemes which are making it harder for you too


>if I pray enough will it stop?

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all answer to this. some people who experience same sex attraction have prayed to god, and have been delivered instantly from it. Others have dealt with it but denied the desires because they believed that it was ungodly, and in doing so, over time, have developed sexual attractions to a spouse of the opposite sex. Still others have endured a life long struggle where that particular desire never leaves them.

For me, some of my ungodly desires left me immediately 5 years ago when i became a christian. Others took a few years. Some are slowly dying. I don't think have any ungodly desire that is not slowly dying. For every ungodly desire that i experience, the more i resist the easier it becomes - so.. i guess that's good news for you.

tl;dr** maybe


this topic is so deep i could write you a book on it. actually, a christian who experiences same sex attraction already has. and if you PM me your address i will gladly buy you this book Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality by Wesley Hill

again, writing a one-size-fits-all response is really hard for this! i'd much rather have a dialog with you about this. feel free to pm me. i'll do my absolute best to answer all your questions!

According Christian, New Testament scholar, open homosexual Wesley Hill, in his book Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality, this is the Christian position:

>“to the truth of the position the Christian church has held with almost total unanimity throughout the centuries—namely, that homosexuality was not God’s original creative intention for humanity…and therefore that homosexual practice goes against God’s express will for all human beings, especially those who trust in Christ.”

Since you are continuing to dogmatically conflate the very distinction I said needs to be made, I'll let you arrogantly chasten Mr. Hill on how he treats himself according to your imagination.

As for the way I treat homosexuals, I've co-authored an article on religion with the most famous queer in the world. So forgive me if I have zero interest in the ignorance you offer me about me.

I'm done here.