Best products from r/IsraelPalestine

I did read Fateful Triangle many years ago I don't remember it well. I liked it didn't love it. I think he has some good lines about the Liberal delusions about what Oslo agreed to. And he certainly said this stuff far earlier than most in this book. Credit where credit is due.

I often enjoy Chomsky but I tend to disagree too much to consider him a great writer. The big problem I have with Chomsky is he tends to have rather unrealistic views of what countries do and then "shocks" his readers by talking about how the USA doesn't meet those standards. If you start with the basic premise that the USA is rationally pursuing its self interest along with other entities pursuing their self interest I think a good deal of the shock wears off. The hypocrisy he insinuates just isn't there. The USA does support humanitarian norms, it is just about the 15th priority on the list, not the 1st or 2nd. Similarly the purpose of Israel is to act in the collective self interest of the Jewish nation. Democratic norms are obeyed and enhanced in Israel in so far as they are in accord or at least don't conflict with that goal

You asked for book recommendations.

• https://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Updated-Expanded/dp/0393346862/ would be strongest by far
  
• https://www.amazon.com/Prime-Ministers-Yehuda-Avner-ebook/dp/B003X9781Y/r
  
• https://www.amazon.com/My-Promised-Land-Triumph-Tragedy-ebook/dp/B009QJMXI8/ -- a liberal wrestles with Israel I think you might like.
  
• https://www.amazon.com/Founding-Fathers-Zionism-Benzion-Netanyahu-ebook/dp/B007Z3QURC/ by Netanyahu's father. Covers Pinsker, Herzl, Nordau, Zangwill, and Zabotinsky A good treatment of the basic ideas of the Zionist right. More importantly a good insight into PM Netanyahu's worldview.
  
  That should start the discussion.
  

>This is absurd beyond words. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians in 1947 had been born in Palestine. Their families had been there for generations. How exactly were they "foreigners"?

there families where there for how many generations, does that counts the Syrian and Egyptian parents?

>No, my issue is that the state has specific demographic policies to increase the presence of one particular ethnic group, the dominant one, in areas it considers strategic, and that this policy is not just restricted to Israel's own sovereign territory, but also to areas under its belligerent occupation.

so your issue is that Israel didn't move the arabs to the Negev but instead promoted the idea of jews moving to the middle of nowhere? and is not an "strategical" thing the movement of people to the west bank.

>They were not the majority in the Eastern part. That is why Jordan could capture it. Most European Jews settled on its newer Western side.

and the university became a weird stuff on the other side.

>Israel does not care about its inhabitants, but it does care about the land. That is why it is encouraging Jews to move to that side, and has encircled the city with settlements.

moving from the point that the city is central to Judaism, the majority of people still is in the west side and is still the growing side.

>And France, and India, and China, and Russia, and Germany, and South Africa, and your own Cuba. Only Israel sees East Jerusalem as its own sovereign territory.

and i..i have no issue with it...and since Israel didn't care for the inhabitants nor expelled them before it have no point or value.

>Some 1300 years ago, and again, by assimilating the native population, instead of displacing them and replacing them with its own.

more like "arabizing" the local population to the point in which they are not the samaritans nor judeans but arabs.

>Jewish population before the Brits was negligible. Less than 10%. It was under British colonial rule that the demographics were forcefully changed against the will of the population. Standard colonial policy.

so why there are so few Europeans in Bolivia, Nigeria, honk kong...it seems that your interpretation of colonization is not the British interpretation...

>Migration on a massive scale under foreign domination against the will of the local population is called colonization.

no, it is called migration...since the age of the roman empire all the way up to the ottomans.

>It's not as if Israel has offered citizenship. Regardless, Jordan's rule over the West Bank had little to do with Israel's oppressive and rapacious policies being applied right now. Obviously the reaction couldn't be the same.

so the "oppressive and rapacious" policies are not the reaction of what the people in the west bank, jordanians or palestinians did and continue to do? and do they wanted israeli citizenship?<-this is the question, not what Israel gave them but what they wanted.

>Again, assimilation. It happened all over the Middle East. You don't seriously believe that an army from a barren desert could repopulate everywhere from Morocco to the Euphrates, where millions of people have lived since antiquity.

they didn't have to repopulate they absorbed the population...and from those millions now there barely a few tribes...and god prevent any of those tribes start renaming things or moving to important areas right?

>Not so sure, particularly once Israel became a US client state. Ethnic cleansing in broad daylight is not something modern Americans can stomach. In any case, it is not possible today, with 2,5 million people living in the West Bank. Israelis have to come to terms with the fact that Palestinians are not moving to Jordan.

then Israel could have expelled them up to 1974? still dont explain why no in 1949-1954...israel came to term with that since the 80s now is only the scary PR that people like to use to fabricate support...

>Israel expelled 80% of the native population. No, it couldn't have expelled that many more. It only goes up to 100%.

how many jews are left in the arab countries?

>That's exactly the mirage I'm talking about. In the meantime, it is Israel the one that control's Palestinians' borders, airspace, natural resources, and the ones that can raid any Arab town they please from the River to the Sea. Some "authority".

what is this love for the airspace, do they have wings?...if Israel try to raid any arab village the PA can send his security forces and start the shooting...they have that authority and they used during the second intifada military operations, besides that they determine the laws, the courts, the foreign and internal policies and the security forces...the authority of an interim government which is to be the government of the country once the occupation ends.

>Israel controls 60% of the West Bank, and it is only entrenching its presence there, not preparing its withdrawal. As the people interviewed in this article explains, it is unlikely Israel will ever give up control of these areas, at least willingly. It's not a question of how many Jews can live in Palestine. None of these Jews have any intention of ever living in a Palestinian state. They don't even fathom the possibility that such a state will ever be established anywhere, much less over their homes. They are there to "redeem Jewish land", not to be ruled by Arabs.

and that is not their decision, they'll endure it...and probably pretend that they are they like the jews in ancient times in the ghettos...they are not going to abandon hebron nor much of the judean desert.

>Israel is not some obscure Third World backwater. You should have realized by now that it attracts a disproportionate amount of attention and concern from around the world. Double standards? Perhaps, but that's how it is. Only US protection is keeping it from going down the South African road right now.


from what...is cuba going to send his soldiers to fight for them as it did in the 80s and "? it seems you are going with the superficial vision of south africa.

http://www.amazon.com/MiG-23-Broke-my-Heart-Dawson-ebook/dp/B0060CAXF4

> The British in no way armed or trained...

The British armed and trained tens of thousands of Jewish fighters in the Levant between 1936 and 1947. First the British used them to suppress and attack the indigenous population, and then a portion of them were used by the British during WWII.

It's not my fault you are ignorant of historical facts, but your ignorance doesn't effect whether they are true or not.

Further, your claim that the British had

> the plan was for the idea of a Jewish National Home to be wiped out forever

is likewise disproven by the facts. The opposite is actually true, as, from 1917 to 1947 the British harshly repressed all Palestinian attempts to build pre-state institutions, while encouraging the immigrant Jewish population they had imported to build exactly those types of institutions.

The evidence demonstrates, irrefutably, that the British greatly favored the imported Jewish population they had brought into the Levant over the indigenous population.

This book provides an excellent case for that position, with plenty of primary source references:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566560241/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

> It's ours because historically, Judea is the homeland of the Jews.

At least those that try to claim it belongs to Israel under Right of Conquest are citing an actual, if archaic and disavowed, principle of international law. Racial privilege has never had force of law, and still doesn't, and racists should stop pretending racial privilege is a legitimate argument.

> Zehava Galon

Really? Meretz? Under 4% of the vote. I said popular, not fringe. Of course there are fringe politicians for any position.

> What sorts of things are unique to Gazan culture?

• the Arabic accent
  
  Gaza has so many accents which differ between one town and another, and sometimes even between one neighbourhood and another.
  
  Gazans tend to use an Egyptian annotation at the end of the words e.g. instead of saying Madraseh (school), they say Madrasah, or Hina (here) instead of Hon.
  
  Gazans (like the Hebronites I think) also snort as an angry reaction to an unbearable situation/story. To say "stop it or else I'll snort for you" usually means my patience has hit the ceiling and there's not much left of it.
  
  
• the food
  
  Ideally, the good thing about food in Gaza is the influence from the Mediterranean both in flavours as well as seafood/fish: Similar to southern Italy and the coastal north Africa, Gazans love chili/green pepper or food that is cooked with chili.
  Various varieties of seafood/fish dishes dominate the menu as well. The most famous is probably the shrimps in clay pot.
  
  There are some dishes which are cooked only in Gaza. Two of these are the Romanniyah and Summaggiyah. I really don’t like them but I think their presence on only the Gaza menu is quite interesting.
  
  More on Gaza food can be found in the Gaza Kitchen book book.
  
  
• Kiting
  
  Probably needless to say but kites and kiting are the Gaza great pass time, especially in the summer. Wherever you’ll go, if it’s sunny and not raining, you’ll find at least one hand-made kite flying in the air, in the desolate village or even as part of a Guinness record-breaking attempt. I think the nice thing about this is that nobody bothers buying ready-to-fly kites and they are always hand-made. There essentially two types of kites: the gobu3, which is a small kite made from a single sheet of paper and a thread, as shown by the kid in this short film, and the 6abag, which is much bigger and has a dish shape, hence the name.
  
  
  >How difficult is it to move in and out of Gaza? Can you just use the Rafa border crossing or can/do you use a tunnel?
  
  At the moment it's nearly impossible. The Egyptian side is completely close and opened for few days two weeks ago for the first time in four months. The Israeli side is close to all travel except for those with permits. Usually it's much easier for foreigners who are journalists or work in the NGO sector to get in and out. Otherwise it's a complete prison camp experience.
  
  
  
  >What do you think is going to ultimately be the future of Gaza?
  
  Will reconciliation with the PA occur? Do you foresee Hamas losing power there? What did people in Gaza generally think about Hamas's chances of accomplishing anything good for them with respect to Israel?
  
  The future of Gaza is really bleak. In its current conditions it is like Hong Kong in population density but nothing else. There are shortages of everything and Gaza is technically a huge-ass refugee camp that without aid would become a major famine.
  
  I think for any attempt to make Gaza a habitable place, you need to move people out of it. I don’t know where to; the empty parts of the West Bank or wherever but it needs to be done.
  
  >Will reconciliation with the PA occur?
  
  I don’t think the two sides have taken a genuine interest in power-sharing. The PA is playing the waiting game while thinking that Hamas will eventually come back and repent.
  
  Hamas for its part doesn’t really care much. You may ask why? Because for Hamas leaders (like other Muslim Brotherhood members pretty much), to rule Gaza is something that never happened to them. Heck, few years earlier all hamas leaders were in PA prisons being treated like shit. Now they are in charge of the whole Gaza Strip (small as it obviously is). Haniyah travels in a motorcade, and he is the prime minister. This guy was Ahmad Yasin’s secretary, like literally secretary.
  
  
  Ruling Gaza also proved useful for the military wing of Hamas. It is now free like never before in terms of doing what it wants to do. The area is small, true, but they can set up training camps, summer schools for kids, run a TV/radio station, run border crossings, run tunnels or even just block the road and do nothing. This is a sea change from where they were before 2007.
  
  The above two paragraphs are meant to show that Hamas leadership (i.e. its military wing) in Gaza is not in rush to shed its control of the Strip.
  
  Between these two currents, the Palestinian population is the biggest loser, especially in Gaza. What I hated the most about Gaza was not the war, the shelling, the infighting or people’s general stupidity, but it was the lack of hope.
  
  In Gaza you can’t do shit. I used to work two jobs and a very decent salary but it was worthless. There was nothing to do with it apart from going to cafe to smoke shisha and watch a football match with friends. In the rare occurrence, a foreign music band would come once in blue moon but that will be it. At some point I decided to start cycling, and it was enjoyable for a while, but then there were the Israeli air strikes on moving cars and I didn’t want to be collateral damage so I stopped even cycling.
  
  Even when you decide, fuck it, I’m gonna leave this place. The borders are closed and it is a miracle to go out. People lose their jobs abroad, their seats in college because they couldn’t travel or get out. At the end of it you feel that the only outlet of this place is to actually go and become a freedom fighter, a member of some Kataeb, and fight Israel (or as in many cases pretend to) until you either go to an Israel prison or get killed.
  
  
  
  >What did people in Gaza generally think about Hamas's chances of accomplishing anything good for them with respect to Israel?
  
  Let’s face it. In 2007 and after that, people probably hated Hamas. They came after a bloody fight and were very scary. But the way things stand now is kind of strange. Because the PA and the international donors are simply paying for everything in Gaza: goods, salaries, costs of utilities..etc, while Hamas does the governance and bullying.
  
  Eventually after few years of this, more than a few will begin to feel that save the month-per-year war with Israel, things are not that horrible actually and it is thanks to Hamas that they are still alive.
  
  What Hams can bring to the future of the Palestinian people is quite difficult to guess. But I’m not seeing a Hamas that is maturing in terms of their thinking. They are still interested in maintaining their grip on power and have not learned to share-power or concede temporarily. What happened in Egypt after the ouster of President Morsi made this belief even stronger.
  
  Eventually I hope that Hamas will somehow see how the Muslim Brotherhood is faring in Tunisia and change accordingly. I think they might be susceptible to doing something like that if they obtain recognition from the international community. I sense that their leaders abroad (Mesha’l et al) have already realized that this is the only way forward but their military wing is still not feeling this way.
  
  (Sorry man that's a lot of writing)
  

The Member States of the United Nations - an international organization - recognize borders by recognizing States. Hence, why I said:

> the international community does in fact determine borders.

Here is how that happens.

The UN as an organization enforces and protects those borders. This takes place in a variety of ways.

If you want to understand more about how States became the primary political actor that make rules vis-a-vis each other, this book will help you learn more about that.

If you'd like to learn more about how States use and delegate power to International Organizations in order to solve international problems, this book will help you do that.

If you'd like to learn more about how the UN System works to enforce borders, this book will help you do that.

Someone posted a website where you can find free books on the non-politics thread. You can probably find pdf copies of each of these books (though personally I just keep them on my shelf to read in a more tangible form and for quick reference).

> When you are ready to have a conversation based on the facts, please let me know.

Something that's really far better addressed to you. Here's something that will help you settle into the true homeland of the Ashkenazim, molto bene!

Here's a sneak peek of /r/fiction using the top posts of the year!

#1: You're walking in the woods (There's a video reward if you make it through the whole game). | 2 comments
#2: My wife's first book! Sparks: A Novel by Natalie Reuter (N) | 0 comments
#3: TIL Nature Magazine publishes science fiction... and some of them are pretty damn good | 0 comments

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Not really, as the actual people who were here were wiped out or cleansed. Whole cultures werw wiped away in a destructice orgy, rather than adapting and changing and learning to live with one another gradually. This is a generalization, of course, but even then one odt he bog things that drove this was mythology of the superiority of European cultural practices and the rights of Europeans to appropriate land of the natives. The Native tribes were not allowed to adapt, they were put into camps, killed and their children stolen from them.


The situation in America is much the same as the situation in Israel Palestine witht he Nakba, although Israel certainly didn't have the time bor the inclination to achieve a genocide in the same manner as my fellow Americans did. There were even attempts to simply become indigenous to the land as well, but it is a complex picture.


In Israel Palestine, the Arabs did not do that. There is not a lot of evidence of massacres and the like, and the Arabs remained a minority for many years afterwards. Given that this hsitory is also 1400 years, there are some generalizations here as well, but the Palestinians are for the most part a continuation of previous peoples, just Arabs now via their speaking of Arabic. There is also an influz of other people from around the Muslim world due to the mobility Muslims, Jews and Christians had during the Islamic golden age.


This is a fascinating book that details this phenomenon through the life of a Jewish merchant in 12th century Egypt and India. I cannot highly recommend it enough.

I can recommend this book. It is very good: https://www.amazon.com/War-Palestine-Rewriting-History-Cambridge/dp/0521699347

Read James Gelvin's The Israel-Palestine Conflict: One Hundred Years of War

Also, this MERIP page is a good starter.

Here's a good one -https://www.amazon.com/Side-Parallel-Histories-Israel-Palestine/dp/1595586830

A Israeli and Palestinian historian go, chapter by chapter, through the history of the conflict, with each historian writing his side's perspective.

Thanks for posting.


For further reading, consider Yoram Hazony's The Jewish State: The Struggle for Israel's Soul which discusses Herzl's policies as applied to the current state of Israel.

Right now I'm reading https://www.amazon.com/Why-X-Christian-Zionist-English-Czaja-ebook/dp/B0153MPN4M

It explains Zionism from a Christian perspective.