Best products from r/JUSTNOMIL

OP, this guy is in no way ready to adult on his own. A lot of us predicted for you that you talking with Snowcasta WAS A TRAP - that no matter what was said in "clearing the air" she would then use ever detail of it to her advantage and twist everything, and basically the FINAL out come is that she's laying down a big "FUCK NO" on simply respecting your personhood. This is a NARCISSIST. She is not going to be reasoned with, she is not going to have "better angels" to appeal to with logic. The only way to win with a Narc is NOT TO PLAY.

Honey, I am a mom of a special needs child. My kid has medical disorders. Those disorders don't take days off - not at Disney World, not on Christmas, not on my birthday, not for a big test at school - they are hardwired in on the genetic level. We don't get to negotiate with them, we don't have a way to make them go away, they are lifelong. The only way to work around them successfully ia to know them for exactly what they are, and then fit the supports and help around them, for coping on a daily basis - but there will never be a cure.

You may think N's choose their behaviors - and they do - but they will never, never, never un-choose to act the way they do. They will never NOT choose to be toxic. It's called a Personality Disorder for a reason, and it won't go away. These aren't "assholes" these are people who are WIRED like this, and they never, never, never change. The only way to "work" with this kind of wiring? Is not to work with it. Full No Contact. Complete and total estrangement. I know that's not what you or he WANT to hear, but it is true. The only cure is distance. They are living radioactive toxic waste, and they will be fore their entire lifetime, and yours.

May I suggest something for you to do, instead of trying to make this relationship with this guy work? Becasue all this relationship ai anymore is work-work-work. Instead of trying to beat Snowcasta at her own game or "win" your guy away from her anymore or spend hours of your life in therapy when YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO CHANGE? Stop fighting with him, stop fighting wth her through him, completely disengage from her radioactive toxiccity in all forms (including all the minutes of life you are processing her poison by talking about it over and over with your girlfriends, fighting with him about it, or even stewing about it in your own head) don't spend a second of your time or energy on this for one month .... and go on a Pleasure Diet instead. As an adult, take YOUR power back by having fun, focusing your energy on what FILLS YOU UP, what makes you happy. And focus ALL your attention on that too. There's a great book for you to read that will guide you through this: Mama Gena's School of Womanly Arts. It's about the art of getting pleasure, not giving it. For instance, if your guys is hot, and he's great in bed - enjoy him, hot and pleasuring you in bed. Send him home the minute he opens his mouth about "mommy" = Playtime done. Without him, have yourself a lovely bubble bath, buy yourself some gourmet chocolates, read a juicy book, flirt with the barista who makes your coffee, run your fingers through soft fur. Go take in a new movie, try a new restaurant. Buy a fabulous hat. get your hair and nails done. Crank up the Girl Power music. It's called the Art of Pleasure. Take a month for yourself (hey, look, March is almost here!) and spend it having a sneaky Love Affair with YOU.

Just as an experiment, just to see what happens. It's going to take discipline, to not get sucked back into the black hole of radioactive toxicity that Snowcasta is trying to be in your life. But read Mama Gena's and she will guide you through it. She has helped thousands of women discover their power, and have fun with life, and party with it. A word we Sister Goddesses use frequently to describe when things are fabulous and right and totally filling us up is Pussified. You are a strong, brilliant creatrix of your universe, and it's time to make your whole life fun again, more pussified, totally in service of you and your joy.

And then watch and see the change - if the last thing on your guy's mind is his stupid mother. When you are all lit up form the inside and gloriously happy, the men in our lives respond to that. They want to be around that kind of feminine energy, it's irresistible.

Basing a response on what you've said to us:

"Holidays for my family are all about relaxing, eating and enjoying friends and family [took a little liberty with 'getting turnt'; IL's don't sound like they'll fit in...]
As guests, your responsibility is to be gracious and to entertain yourselves rather than demanding an itinerary - or ANYTHING. I shouldn't have to tell you this - you're adults and presumably acquainted with the social graces - but I am."

"You're welcome at our Thanksgiving and to hang out if you behave like guests. The rest of the time you're on your own. None of us are your tour guide. Google some local attractions and decide what you might like to do."

It's been almost a year since I had a holiday with my own family. I'm doing so and have advised DH that he's welcome to look after you and to spend as much time as he wishes with you. I'll be hanging out with my folks and friends. Hope you have a great time."

This is salty. Overbearing and self-entitled people leave you little choice; they wouldn't be making ridiculous demands if they were sufficiently reasonable for you to be polte. You have to be blunt.

If they clutch their pearls and gasp tell them "Reasonable folks wouldn't require being spoken to this bluntly; it's sometimes called a clue-by-four. Now that I have your attention, realize how overbearing and ridiculous is your behavior. Or don't. Either way, my family and I will be spending this visit together rather than entertaining you."

Copy DH and tell him something like "Your parents are being ridiculous. They're your family. Dear, based on their demands I feel like saying 'your circus, your monkey's.' You're welcome to put up with / hang out with them all you want or feel obligated to. I won't and refuse to allow them to steal or spoil my time with my family. I find their behavior offensive BECAUSE IT IS. I hope if you let them impose on you, you begin to understand that Fear, Obligation and Guilt are a shitty basis for a relationship. With your parents or anyone."

And give him When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover for holiday reading.

I promise that 1) this experience WON'T loosen up FMIL or help her appreciate you. You've stolen her Baby Boy (hurk) and she's pissed. 2) She's shown you who she is. Believe her. 3) Absolutely somebody's going to be stuck trying to appease her; it doesn't have to be YOU. 4) Contact MIL as soon as you read this (unless it's 3 a.m.) and tell her that you're not her bank; her reservations will be canceled at 8 a.m. Thursday (allows her an extra day for Veteran's Day) unless you have the $1500 in full.

No, dear, you DON'T just have to front her funds; you're in a little FOG yourself. What's she going to do - spank you? Ground you? Stop speaking to you? (GOOD)

You're an adult. So is she, at least in years. You're her equal. She owes you reasonableness but you're clearly not going to get it without insisting on it.
You owe her FFF: Fair, Firm and Friendly until she's an ass, which she achieved some time ago. Now she gets Fair and Firm in perpetuity or until genuine change occurs. Perpetuity is waaaaay more likely.

Please accept that you get what you insist on rather than what you deserve. Taking this to heart - and living by it - is a significant sign of adulthood.

I hope you seize this opportunity to begin reclaiming your life; you deserve it. And maybe your very dear husband will start to see that the sky doesn't fall when mommy gets told no; that in fact things are better all around when she gets over her head exploding.

Hi there. Welcome to the shit mom club. First of all I would like to say congratulations! This is a great start to setting boundaries and flexing your shiny spine. Good job.

Next I would like to point you to some resources and give you some advice/tips:

1. r/raisedbynarcissists - This is another support sub with phenomenal resources. Seriously, check those out.
   
   
2. If you need help building your shiny spine, this book about assertiveness training is excellent.
   
   
3. If you haven't heard of the "grey rock method" of communication you should google it. Pro tip: when grey rocking be sure not to JADE. It is a hard habit to break but I mention it specifically because the stuff about the rocky start was a bit JADE-y (which is fine, practice makes perfect).
   
   
4. www.outofthefog.website has a bunch of great stuff.
   
   
5. This book list has a bunch of wonderful suggestions that I hope you will find useful. (Be sure to read the comments.)
   
   You've already received great advice to keep it simple. When she tries to go off topic just cut her off. Repeat the boundary. There may be a lot of rinse and repeat (you'll sound like a broken record) but that is what is needed to get it through her thick skull.
   
   As for the consequences, they need to be swiftly and firmly enforced. Any lack in enforcement is seen as "win" on her part and then her behavior will escalate (because she doesn't think you will enforce anything).
   
   I hope this stuff helps. Best of luck! :)

For your SO:

"Most adult children of toxic parents grow up feeling tremendous confusion about what love means and how it’s supposed to feel. Their parents did extremely unloving things to them in the name of love. They came to understand love as something chaotic, dramatic, confusing, and often painful—something they had to give up their own dreams and desires for. Obviously, that’s not what love is all about. Loving behavior doesn’t grind you down, keep you off balance, or create feelings of self-hatred. Love doesn’t hurt, it feels good. Loving behavior nourishes your emotional well-being. When someone is being loving to you, you feel accepted, cared for, valued, and respected. Genuine love creates feelings of warmth, pleasure, safety, stability, and inner peace." ― Susan Forward, Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life

 

Here is to many more years with your SO and without the people that call themselves his family.

I think what your therapist is recommending is that you read books and other resources about the two conditions to help you understand how to not enable her behavior and also to help you heal from her abuse.

And you are right, it isn't the same as a diagnosis. But ultimately, your response will be very similar with or without a diagnosis. My jusno's do not have any formal diagnoses that I know of. Originally, I thought that they might be this or that, and it felt like I needed to know. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that I would never know, and furthermore my course of action wouldn't change even if I did know. Which means, for me, the precise condition is ultimately irrelevant. You will have to determine relevancy yourself. Your therapist has given you a generalized area to research that will hopefully help you to find the right path forward for you. I personally would also look at books on narcissism - not because I think your therapist is wrong, but rather because the conditions are similar enough that the books are helpful. Sometimes this is more about finding an author who speaks your language than it is about the precise condition.

Please take the time to understand the differences between Bi-Polar and Borderline Personality. My understanding is that they are pretty different in terms of their source, presentation and how to treat them. I have done way more research on personality disorders than Bi-polar.

Book options (based on your therapist suggestion) to help you on your way:

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=borderline&qid=1568749104&s=gateway&sr=8-5 - have read this one - it is good

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=borderline&qid=1568748960&s=gateway&sr=8-2 - have heard good things about this one, no personal experience.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable-Relationship/dp/0765703319/ref=pd_sbs_14_19?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0765703319&pd_rd_r=1df02639-93bb-4407-a19e-09f71cb173bc&pd_rd_w=8tGI6&pd_rd_wg=FsKic&pf_rd_p=d66372fe-68a6-48a3-90ec-41d7f64212be&pf_rd_r=7J859K8ZGXEKBHVS3EW5&psc=1&refRID=7J859K8ZGXEKBHVS3EW5 - have also heard good things about this one.

> I'll write more about DH's childhood soon but in his case, placating his mother is how he survived.

That sounds awfully familiar to me, it's how I survived my childhood as well.

One of my favorite psychology/self-help books (https://smile.amazon.com/Complex-PTSD-Surviving-RECOVERING-CHILDHOOD/dp/1492871842/) postulates that rather than just a "Fight or Flight" response in people, that's there's actually a "Fight, Flight, Fawn, or Freeze" response to things perceived as threats. Fight and flight are obvious, fight back or try to escape. Freeze is just sort of giving up and shutting down. And Fawn is trying to be super accommodating to try to defuse the threat "Here's my wallet, take my money, just please don't hurt me."

And that's how us "Fawns" get through childhood with a narcissitic parent. Not fighting back or trying to get away, just trying to give them what they want in the hopes that it'll make things ok (Hint: It won't).

It'll take time to break the cycle for your husband, it's all been ingrained since childhood. But as long as he's showing promise (And it sounds like he is), that's a great sign!

First, put a lock on your toolbox. Make everyone use their own tools. Fancy tape on the handles, too. That way you can grab it back when it pops up again.

You may have less luck with the cats/plants issue. (I have both). Her room may not have the right kind of light. You may have better luck keeping the cats downstairs. If you have a plug near the steps you can try something like this at the top to keep the cats in your area. It's a little weird, but it kept my cats from pooping in my bathtub.

Are Alexa controlled type locks and lights an option? What about motion sensor lights and timers in the kitchen. And, if you get results with a different method, please update. Lights and locks are an ongoing issue at my house, too.

I don't have any useful ideas about the smoke. You do share and they do pay rent. I have only been able to get smokers to not smoke by my door if I owned the house 100%. Perhaps a somewhat exaggerated take a whiff of the incoming smoke and cover your mouth and nose and run like you are going to hurl. Make a scene. You are also going to have to figure out how you will handle 2nd and 3rd hand smoke once the baby gets here. Is your HVAC separate? Meaning does the furnace or AC circulate air all through the house or does the basement air stay downstairs while the upstairs air stays there. That will change the answer. Alternately, what about one of those portable hepa units to pull smoke out of the air? Spring for the good filters for the furnace.

The smell of smoke would just lay me out while pregnant, especially 1st trimester. Good luck.

​

> I'm usually a people pleaser

You and me both. But at some point, the pleasing-other-people part comes at a negative cost for you. I found a therapist I liked and worked on being less of a people pleaser. I'd highly recommend you do the same. It's hard to not feel guilty, but it feels SO much better when you realize you have nothing to feel guilty over (especially here).

If therapy isn't something you're ready to try, there's a great book called When I Say No I Feel Guilty that you can read to help you get in a better mindset about things like this.

Have you read the book The 5 Love Languages? I ask because one of the ways that they talk about expressing love in the book is by giving gifts. And if that's not your love language, you might not recognize it was being an act of love. Instead it's annoying.

Of course that's giving your MIL the benefit of the doubt that what she's doing is out of love. If it isn't, then it seems like she's more marking her territory, like a dog peeing on a fence.

> this woman is smarter than the others. she knows how to play nice, bide her time and strike when it will hurt the most. she is the most dangerous type of crazy, the one who gets away with it.

New Friend DIL:

First of all, welcome to this sub! You will find to your relief that you and your DH are absolutely not alone in having to deal with horrible MILs.

Please be sure to go through the Worst of the Worst MILs linked in the sidebar, as well as the Top Posts of All Time. Be prepared for some deeply frightening stories. No lie, there have been MILs who have killed or attempted to kill their DILs or SILs, have kidnapped their grandchildren, and more.

I point you to those stories to help you understand exactly how far crazy MILs are willing to go. u/cheshireslaciei's post indicates that you've let her back into your life before. I want you to understand that continuing to do so could potentially end up with one of you dead. This woman nearly murdered DIL with an allergen, (very probably) killed your dog, and has manipulated things so that any link to her involvement is tenuous at best. And on top of that, she's shown she's will to run a long con in order to hurt someone. Psychologically, that places her firmly in with the likes of many developing serial killers. You need to react accordingly.

u/cheshireslaciei says that you're NC for good this time, but just in case you feel tempted years down the road to try it again? Re-read those stories I linked to before you do so.

I apologize if my tone is blunt, and I want to assure you that you're among friends here. The people on this sub are amazing and will give you the gift of what they learned from their experiences with MILs who terrorize their families. They will encourage you when you're down, listen while you vent, advise you when you need help, and be there when no one else understands.

But I also want to make clear: you're dealing with a level of pure malice that this group has encountered too many times (start with "MIL in the Wild: “You’re such a bad little girl. See, mummy’s leaving you here. She’s gone without you. No car for you” and then read the updates). We've seen how things play out with MILs like this (start with "Vacation Bitch: the Beginning"). We know how this movie ends

I want to encourage you to trust your instincts on how dangerous this woman is (read The Gift of Fear to understand why this is important). You cannot cut this cancer out of your life fast enough.


u/cheshireslaciei: I absolutely hate it that you're going through all of this for being a decent human being and standing up to protect a child. I'm so proud of you for doing that, I can't begin to imagine how hard all of this is on you. I wish there was something I could do to help, and I cannot wish enough bad things on this woman.

Sounds like you have a narc on your hands, and you married her golden child. And that you should have stayed strong with your first NC, but isn't that true for all of us?

You're in the right place, and we can help you and if he'll let us- your husband. Who should check out /raisedbynarcissists.

Here's the three books I suggest that might really help with getting a good hold on the situation:

Here are the books that I think will give you the knowledge of what's going on, and tools to manage it.

1. Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. This was THE BOOK that started to set me free. It's a must read book for people with narc/abusive parents and their partners, in my opinion.
   
2. Toxic Parents is a classic about how to see the manipulative patterns from abusive parents and get free of them.
   
3. Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Dr. George Simon. Man has a PhD in manipulation, and breaks down what the manipulators DO and how to shut it down. He's studied this for 20 years and it's AMAZING.
   
   If you read these three books, you'll be so far ahead of the game it's not even funny.
   

Books I recommend: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and Emotional Blackmail.

As for finding a therapist, I would use your insurance provider's search and look up the offices and generally they should have a list of areas of expertise covered by their therapists. You want to look for descriptions like Adult Children of Alcoholics/Addicts, Codependency, Family Issues, and when he calls he can give a brief description like you mentioned in your post. They should be able to direct him to a counselor to set up a first appointment. Also, think of finding a therapist like finding a partner. The first person he meets might not be the best fit, and he doesn't have to keep going to them if he wants to find someone he feels more comfortable with.

Good luck to you both!

Don't give in to her guilting you for attention.

​

You do want is right and best for you. If you don't want a relationship with her then don't have a relationship. If you do then have a relationship.

Look through the book list. The books cover a variety of situations. One that could help is Emotional Blackmail.

Good Luck and stay strong.

First. Get him to read this book: Stop Walking on Eggshells. It helps to understand what's going on with people who have Borderline Personality Disorder. Once he's read the book, the next step is to help him understand that without long term, intensive therapy and a willingness to change, she's never going to change. She's going to be the victim 100% of the time, and nothing is ever her fault. If you also have a moment, look at some of the resources in the sidebar of r/BPDlovedones. The sub is a little more relationship focused than family focused, but there's some solid resources there.

Best of luck

Wyze cams are very cheap and reliable as well as highly reccomended. There's a r/wyzecam, because of course there is, LOL...

Wyze Cams are incredibly affordable:

Pan & Zoom model $37.98

Wyze Cam V2 $25.98 plus 20% off now

The cameras are made for indoor use only use only, however can be mounted outside with a skin purchased separately. Both models have birdhouse skins (links below) but they're not as invisible as the ideas posted on the Wyze forum and subreddit.

I also came across this great post on the Wyze Cam Forum to add an extra layer of protection againdt the elements using a trimmed balloon. Lots of ideas for hiding in plain sight.

Pan & Zoom - $13.99

Wyze Cam V2 Birdhouse Suction Cup Mount $12.99 / 1 or $18.99 / 2

I hope this helps!

My husband found super cheap 24 hour cams with sound and color. The Wyze cam is like 30 bucks, works great and has an outdoor housing for about 15. We use one as a baby monitor and have the other in our driveway.

ETA: it also has infrared for night

If FSIL is interested in having a book to read and work through with his therapist, I can recommend this one for sure. I've used it myself and it was very eye opening and reassuring. I've seen this other one around but haven't read it yet.

It sounds like you've got all your bases covered. Silver lining from your stalker experience I guess... if such a thing could be had.

Stay safe!

Thanks for posting that. The concept of the covert-aggressive personality is proving to be quite an eye-opener. We're both reading a book on the topic to gain further insight, and it feels like another big piece of the puzzle for me. The book (In Sheep's Clothing) is really making it clear that overly conscientious people, such as myself, put way too much effort into trying to understand the people who are screwing them over, and not nearly enough effort into defending themselves and asserting what they want.

How about a helping hand:
[snip snip glue glue]

Here are the books that I think will give you the knowledge of what's going on, and tools to manage it.

• Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. This was THE BOOK that started to set me free. It's a must read book for people with narc/abusive parents and their partners, in my opinion.
  
• Toxic Parents is a classic about how to see the manipulative patterns from abusive parents and get free of them.
  
• Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Dr. George Simon. Man has a PhD in manipulation, and breaks down what the manipulators DO and how to shut it down. He's studied this for 20 years and it's AMAZING.
  
  If you read these three books, you'll be so far ahead of the game it's not even funny.

Excellent, cheap, smart security cameras:

1 pack($29) : https://www.amazon.com/YI-Security-Surveillance-Monitor-Android/dp/B01CW4AR9K

4 pack($118) : https://www.amazon.com/YI-Wireless-Security-Surveillance-Monitor/dp/B01CW4CEMS

Glad Squish is here and healthy! You were a rockstar.

So, I know getting around is hard right after a little one, but just in case you feel the need for some physical reinforcement to your boundaries, putting one of these in the bedroom, nursery, or wherever it is you'll go to feed Squish during "grandma's" visit will assure you she won't get the chance to just do whatever the hell she feels entitled to with Your Daughter. If she can't get into the room, she can't run roughshod over you.

The fact that you seem to be willing to allow her around you (collectively) after that performance is far more forgiving and tolerant than I would ever be. I'm already establishing with my OH that, if a child should ever happen and I cannot deliver at home, I'd better be bothered by precisely NO ONE and those who intrude at the hospital will be persona non grata after the fact. I have a well-established history of cutting out rotten people and no qualms about doing it again, but the courage it took-- desperation, really-- isn't easy to learn. But my JNGrandmother and JNMother had me so shut down and panicked that I felt backed into a corner where I had no other choice.

When you feel like you have no choices, you find the courage to do extraordinary things. Your only choice now is to protect your child. I hope that woman knows what kind of bear she could be poking with her foolishness.

Good luck!

How long until you move?

Do you have the funds to pick up this?

Wyze Cam 1080p HD Indoor Wireless Smart Home Camera with Night Vision, 2-Way Audio, Works with Alexa https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076H3SRXG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_cGIVCbZ8K1JA6

It'll do the job. You can keep it pointed at your door at all times and then you don't have to worry about remembering your camera.

If possible, have DH send her a text starting she is not welcome at your house and to not come by again or you will call the police. Save it for proof that she was told. Or if you haven't been talking to her at all, send a cease and desist via your lawyer.

When she comes by again, immediately call the cops.

So proud of you. You’ve got this. Stay diligent. Know this: It’s going to get worse. Make sure your daughter’s doctors and childcare know about your mom. Password protect discussing your daughter. Put it in writing, have them sign it. Research grandparents rights in your state. You are clearly resourceful, but I am assuming you do not have the resources she has.

I will get this ball rolling. Your mom was and is abusive. She is likely a narcissist. I highly recommend r/raisedbynarcissists and r/CPTSD. Your mom is relentless. Your mom follows the prototypical pattern of an emotionally and psychologically abusive narcissistic parent.

2 books I highly recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Complex-PTSD-Surviving-RECOVERING-CHILDHOOD/dp/1492871842

https://www.amazon.com/Will-Ever-Good-Enough-Narcissistic/dp/1439129436

Those books are printed validation. It is so easy to accept that you were abused if you were physically beaten. If can be so much harder to accept you were abused if you weren’t. It doesn’t matter that she didn’t hit you. I grew up with Parents who fed, clothed, and educated me. They never hit me (from what I can remember). But without a doubt they were psychologically and emotionally abusive, and I didn’t figure that out until I was 38, partly because of the conditioning of the abuse.

These reddit communities are strong, experienced, empathetic, brilliant, and present. They will help you see the patterns and develop tools. They will help you set and enforce boundaries. They will listen and give you incredible advice and support, even though they don’t know you, because, in reality, they do know you. And your mom. And your situation. And the patterns. And the way out.

You’ve done so much. You will have to do more. You are not alone.

I highly recommend reading "When I Say No, I feel Guilty". It's really good to establish boundaries and be politely assertive, and not feel guilted by others' manipulations!

https://www.amazon.com/When-Say-No-Feel-Guilty/dp/0553263900

How about something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002YUX8I/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1500860576&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=door+bar&dpPl=1&dpID=212PLCmMf1L&ref=plSrch

It can at least secure the door when you're in the room.

r/raisedbynarcissists is an extremely resourceful subreddit.

ETA: Perhaps this book might help too? It was recently recommended to me by my therapist. https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901

Read the book "When I say no, I feel guilty". https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004IK8Q22/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

With how she raised you guilt is a motivational factor for not saying no to her and this book will help you come up with techniques on how to better handle situations with her.