Best products from r/exmormon

We found 291 comments on r/exmormon discussing the most recommended products. We ran sentiment analysis on each of these comments to determine how redditors feel about different products. We found 1,363 products and ranked them based on the amount of positive reactions they received. Here are the top 20.

Top comments mentioning products on r/exmormon:

u/jasonellis · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I feel for you. I decided I no longer believed just as my younger daughter was being born. My timing was just slightly better, as I was somewhat out the door, but not publicly, at the time of her blessing. So, I was able to give a good blessing that was more of a general "your parents love you, make good decisions" then anything Mormon specific.

My wife also left eventually, but it was after some pretty rocky conversations and tense times in our marriage. I would wait for times when she would say something that I could use as an "in" to say something about church history she didn't know about. Joseph's polyandry, especially with teenage girls, is very powerful stuff with many women. So, if a report came out about a guy in the news that had sex with a teenage girl, my wife might say how that is gross, and I would reply "Joseph Smith did it multiple times" and leave it at that. It planted seeds. Later she would bring it up and ask for supporting details. Try and think of what responses she might give to those ("back then, men married younger women", etc.) and have calm counter-responses to those points. It will get the wheels turning. Eventually, like I said, my wife left and is now a more ardent/militant atheist than I am. I can proudly say my children will not be brainwashed by any religion.

I would also emphasize that you need to really concentrate on your love for her. Women are taught in Mormonism that their marriage is their key to exaltation. They cannot do it alone, they need a priesthood holder sealed to them. They can see this apostasy of yours as the end of their marriage in a very real way. Constantly ensure her of how much you love and cherish her, and how you need her in your life. That will help comfort her that you are in it with her and not to take off and be a sinner in the world.

Good luck. If you need "softer" info that your wife can read if she gets to the point that she is willing to look, there are resources people can recommend here. I would recommend these:

  1. Why people leave the Mormon church. This video takes the approach that people leave for legitimate reasons. It isn't the best as far as conclusions, because in the end it tries to say that they should stay, but it can get her started in reasons from a non "anti" point of view.

  2. 20 Truths About Mormonism. I LOVE this site and don't think it is referenced enough. Have her read it in order, because the intro is very important, as it sets the context that he is only seeking truth, and that is why he left.

  3. Remembering the wives of Joseph Smith. This site is good in that many members don't think Joseph was a polygamist, or that much of the story are just anti lies that are spread. It has a wonderful table on the front page that shows his wives, their husbands at the time Joseph married them, and how old they are. The links are to a short biography of each, with reference links to the LDS church's own family search genealogy web site for source info.

  4. Book: An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Great book. Also, this interview (4 PARTS) with the author is wonderful to listen to, maybe even before reading the book.

    Good luck!
u/MoundBuildingNephite · 11 pointsr/exmormon

The existentialism is real in the wake of losing your worldview. All the pep-talks in the world about "go live your life, the world is amazing!" meant nothing to me. I didn't know how to move forward. For some of us, the loss is huge and the existential dread (with its accompanying anxiety and depression) is absolutely consuming.

Ultimately, the study of philosophy and the nature of existence was the way out and the door to a meaningful post-Mormon life for me. I read and studied a bunch of stuff, but the below list was some of the most helpful. I ultimately chose to go with a personalized form of stoicism to fill the void left by Mormonism. Others prefer secular Buddhism, etc. If you still like Jesus as a moral guide (like I do in a lot of ways), this is a great short podcast about Jesus as a moral philosopher.

Anyway, I found the below very helpful in my transition:

  • Philosphize This! podcast. Start with episode 1 and just listen all the way through. It's great and he even mentions Mormonism a few times.

  • The Power of Now by Tolle.

  • The Happiness Trap by Harris.

  • Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.

  • Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)

  • The Alchemist by Coelho.

  • A New Earth by Tolle.

  • A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.

  • What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it. Auido book here.

    If you're interested in stoic philosophy as a replacement for Mormonism:

  • Start with this easy article for a nice overview. The rest of this blog can be helpful, too. For example, here's a great recent article.

  • This book. It can be a bit long in places, but it's an easy read and gives an awesome overview.

  • Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. The Audible version of this is really good, too, if you have a daily commute, etc.

     

    Finally, it gets better! Take it a day (or a month) at a time and keep searching and you'll eventually land in a good spot! Good luck, and stick with it!
u/tryintomakesenseofit · 7 pointsr/exmormon

Over the past several years I've personally gravitated toward a blend of stoicism and "secular Christianity." I know many others go the route of secular Buddhism (Noah Rasheta, who is also an exMo runs secularbuddhism.com which you might want to check out) and others (most?) simply go the route of ethical hedonism.

I personally gravitated toward stoicism because it isn't a religion and has no real religious underpinning. Instead, it's normally referred to as just a "philosophy of life." It has worked well for me as a backfill to religion. You'll also find that different people have different views of what it means to "practice" stoicism, so it's nice in that you can kind of adapt it to fit your personal preferences.

Here are some recommendations if you want to look into it:

  • Start with this easy article for a nice overview. Then continue to read other articles on the How to be a Stoic blog. It's a great resource.

  • I'd recommend this book as well. It can be a bit long in places, but it's an easy read and gives an awesome overview.

  • Finally, you should also read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I have an audio version from Audible that's excellent and I enjoyed listening to it much more than reading it, but there are free copies all over the place to download and read in Kindle if you just Google it.

    Aside from stoicism, studying and learning about philosophy in general has been a huge cushion for me in dealing with the existential crisis that often follows losing belief in Mormonism. Google the Philosophize This! podcast and start at episode 1 if you're interested. It's great. I also really enjoy the Philosophy Bites podcast. Other than the above, the following were also very helpful to me in finding a approach to life without "God" and without religion:

  • The Power of Now by Tolle.

  • The Happiness Trap by Harris.

  • Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.

  • Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)

  • The Alchemist by Coelho.

  • A New Earth by Tolle.

  • A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.

  • What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it. Auido book here.

    All of the above combined with a few long years of figuring things out got me to a good place. But everyone's journey is different, so do what you think will work best for you...and good luck!


u/HappyAnti · 2 pointsr/exmormon

It took me quite some time before I shared with my wife, and it was a few months after that before we shared together with our children. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. The best advice I was given was to "just be Jesus to her." Even before that advice my wife later said she had noticed a positive change in me. She could tell something happened for the better and yet at the same time wondered if I was detaching myself from TSCC.

Take this time to study and have a replacement ready so when you do talk with your family they're not just left hanging and without direction.I've been where you are. My search for the existence or non-existence of God consumed me and lasted for years as I had no one to initially guide my efforts. I would not be duped again! As a result I am now chasing a PhD in philosophy of religion. Philosophy of religion and philosophical theology are two academic disciplines that utilize the philosophical method for examining the evidence for God and examining the truth chains of religion. Top universities throughout the world have departments that specialize in it. After years of study, I have come down on the side for the existence of God. Our family is now a part of Protestant Christianity, although not tied to one denomination.

Below are some good sources for beginning. Reasonable Faith is a great website with lots of information, I would take some time looking through it. It also has a podcast titled "Defenders" under "Media" that will really begin to ground you in a mature understanding of the topic. "On Guard" is an excellent book to get you started as well. Try not to get caught up in the cynicism that plagues so many of us who have left the TSCC. Healthy skepticism is ok. It merely says that you want sufficient reason to believe something is true or more plausible than not. Cynicism on the other hand is a bitter and unhealthy hyper-skepticism that is shut off to further examination.

I hope everything goes great for you. If there is anything further I can do or any questions you have please don't hesitate to ask.

Al my best, There's success on the other side of this.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org

https://www.amazon.com/Guard-Students-Thinkers-Guide-Christian-ebook/dp/B00U894IGA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1520306101&sr=8-3&keywords=on+guard+william+lane+craig

https://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-Lewis-Signature-Classics-ebook/dp/B002BD2UR0/ref=pd_ybh_a_13?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ET4M1H0BNR1J0S4RA6ZW

https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Religion-Basics-Jargon-Free-Beginners-ebook/dp/B0088DXG2A/ref=pd_ybh_a_19?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ET4M1H0BNR1J0S4RA6ZW

https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Religion-Anthology-Louis-Pojman/dp/1111305447/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1520385625&sr=8-22&keywords=Philosophy+of+religion

u/4blockhead · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Feel free to skip over my essay, and down to my recommendations. The essay is intended to add some context for someone trying to understand mormonism from the outside.

The mainstream branch of mormonism, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is starting to diverge significantly from its historical roots. The folk magic/occult practices found at the church's origin are now considered completely foreign and abhorrent. The same for the practice of polygamy, it is disavowed and a distant memory within the mainstream church. The membership hardly remembers how central of tenet plural marriage once was. It isn't a relevant part of the religion anymore.

The original church is being watered down and the rough spots sanded over and evened out. The temple rituals originally included some very disconcerting elements and language. They have been significantly revised over time. First, they modified their nude bathing initiation to be a semi-nude washing off with a small hose. Now, as I understand it, all washing is omitted. Initiates are allowed to wear undergarments and not be naked under a sheet. Now, the officiant doesn't touch the initiate at all, if I understand correctly. Also, the death oaths for revealing the secrets of the temple are gone, as is the oath of vengeance against the United States of America for not preventing the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

The personal priesthood interviews to determine worthiness are another thing that is being changed and toned down within mainstream mormonism. The change is being driven by new order mormons, NOMs, who are putting their ward bishop on notice that they won't tolerate the bishop asking invasive questions of their children. I don't think that would've have gone over very well when I was a youth in the church. My parents would have been excommunicated for trying to dictate terms to the bishop. Still, today, I assume that some bishops would not accept terms presented by the NOMs.

I believe studying the church's origins helps to show that the church is not the one-true church that many of us have been taught that it was from birth. Studying the early history shows their practices were even more cultish than today. That said, outsiders would still consider their current secretive, masonic-based temple rituals plenty cultish, though.

Outsiders need to be able to separate its history from its current practice. Except for the temple, the LDS church's Sunday and weekly worship services are standard fare, albeit with a significant time commitment each week. Most of their services are about propping up their mythology, with some socialization- getting to know one another thrown in. They don't delve too deeply into any troubling elements of scripture, or of church history or former practices. The lessons are standardized by committee. Certain topics are definitely too hot to handle. If I were to say one thing about it, I think church is now more about being one of the ways that is used to present their family into the community, especially in highly mormon communities. It's a way to primp and preen, and try to impress the neighbors. Parents thoroughly wash, dress, and parade their families before the other members of the ward. The goal is to appear to be the perfect mormon family. To add the final piece to the puzzle, the family must fall into line and prove they are worthy of respect, that means regular participation in temple rituals. To be eligible to attend the temple, the member must affirm they agree with and try to follow the current theology of the church 100%, but mostly that boils down to agreeing to pay 10% of their income to the church. At this point, I think the temple rituals are a lot like Tevia said in Fiddler on the Roof in the lead in to Tradition! They don't know why they do those rituals, but it was good enough for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so it must be good for something. The faithful would say it is a requirement to seal a legal agreement with god; it is buying an insurance policy that says families are forever.

I'll stop here, except for stating that a new dynamic is emerging in the church. People are quitting, either by simply not attending (going inactive), or by formally resigning. Issues like the church's support for prop 8 begin to call into question whether the church is on the right side of history. They see the tremendous cash outlay required to build their mall and wonder whether the church is making the right kind of financial choices for a so-called charitable organization. As noted above, these issues can lead a member to begin to question whether their church is everything it claims to be. Is it the one true church? That question runs headlong into the buzzsaw of early mormon history. The information is available online that shows that it is not what it claims to be. Of course, this type of research can lead to loss of faith. What happens when only one partner in a marriage learns the truth? How should young adults respond to their parents' expectations for them knowing that missionary work for something they don't believe in is not something they are wiling to do? How should young women attempt to break out of the rigid sex roles and limited life plan offered by mormonism? I discovered these existential, heartbreaking, and painful experiences detailed here on this subreddit. The politics of how to deal with that fallout when the blinders come off and people face a new reality is what the subreddit is mostly about. It provides a new community for those who are looking for a new worldview, free from the clear cut and rigid worldview presented from childhood as the truth.

Recommendations

u/nocoolnametom · 2 pointsr/exmormon

The Oxford Short Introductions Series has a great volume on Mormonism that covers the faith in a very even-handed and neutral manner. If you're pressed for time, this would probably be the best thing to read. The Dummies and Idiot's Guide are actually not that bad in their presentation of the faith; they're both by what would be termed "liberal Mormons" and do a pretty good job of being realistic in their presentation (though both still being very positive, of course, but they're not conversion texts).

To understand the different faiths in the Latter Day Saint movement you need to understand the history of the faith as so much of the faith claims are rooted in historical events. Books like Rough Stone Rolling and No Man Knows My History give a good overview of Joseph Smith's life. The upcoming Brigham Young biography by John Turner seems like it will also be a good source for information on Young's tenure as president of the Church as it will discuss some of the darker/stranger issues like blood atonement and Adam-God. If you want to go in depth on the history of the Temple ritual, I'd recommend Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness.

The last information I would give is that most (but not all) books published by Christian publishers should probably be avoided. Nowadays most of them are factual in their content, but their presentation is not meant to provide an understanding of the LDS Church but rather is meant to provide a multiplicity of reasons not to associate with the faith. A few exceptions I'd say are most books by Sandra and Gerald Tanner, and By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus which is an amazing overview of Joseph's "Book of Abraham" and the history and implications of the papyri Smith used in producing it which were rediscovered in 1967 to the subtle consternation of the CHurch ever since.

u/kerrielou73 · 1 pointr/exmormon

You're allowed to want basically the same things the church wanted for you. You don't need Mormonism to fall in love with a great guy who's lifestyle and goals align with your own. It sounds like you may be very naturally religiously inclined and that's okay. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to believe in God in the traditional sense to have the same connection and focus on understanding God. Mormons do not have a monopoly on spirituality.

In some ways Mormons lead ascetic lives that aren't terribly dissimilar from monks or nuns. They abstain from much of the world's pleasures and concerns. They spend a great deal of time in religious worship and thought. They primarily socialize with each other. They live in a monastery of the mind, rather than a physical one. Unfortunately it's not a very good monastery, but guess what? Now you have choices.

I would recommend looking up Karen Armstrong and reading the Spiral Staircase. Armstrong was on her way to becoming a nun. Near the end of her Noviship she began to doubt, but her passion for knowledge of religion and God never left and she has spent her life studying it. You will probably be able to relate to her anguish and feeling of loss of the life she so deeply wanted to live. If you like it, read A History of God. Remarkably, Instead of remaining angry, though you certainly feel it, especially near the beginning, her intense passion for religious knowledge kept her intensely fascinated.

If you want to keep a connection to your pioneer ancestors you have to go beyond the CES letter. It's invaluable, but it's not designed or meant to take you beyond the point of disbelief. Instead or in addition to, read the works of believers who have studied the early church and it's people in great depth with both curiosity and compassion, rather than anger and nihilism. You don't have to believe what your ancestors believed to stay connected to them. Knowing Mormonism isn't true isn't the same as intimately knowing the truth of it's people and the time and place they inhabited. Put yourself in the mind of a historian who loves what and who they study and wants to get to know them, even in their flaws, beyond the faith promoting anecdotes shared at family reunions.

Start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is sourced from the RLDS archives and In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton, who is still a member.

edited to add: It would likely be too much for your family to handle now, but at some point you might look up the Unitarian church or the Quakers (underground railroad anyone). If you miss a religious community you can find one much more focused on actually doing good; not just self justifying busywork.

edited edited to add: Mormon Enigma and Sacred Loneliness should be okay to read in front of your mom so you also don't have to feel like you're sneaking around. Replace the fear with curiosity. It will be okay.

There's evidence even Mother Teresa seriously doubted the existence of God. It didn't stop her.

u/ordinaryhumans · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Highly recommend reading a good book together with your wife written by LDS women about Emma Hale Smith. It will help you both appreciate Emma's perspective and is well researched. It's called Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith. http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914 It was sold in Deseret book stores. There shouldn't be too much about this that threatens your wife but if read together can lead to interest in that time and good discussions together. This was very helpful for my wife and I when we were in a similar situation two years ago. Show more love now with your wife, your courage honesty and integrity will make a huge difference, that's what's real, that's what's good.

u/pater_familias · 6 pointsr/exmormon

I was this missionary. Not really, but I could rationalize with the best of them. Logic just did not enter my way of thinking. This missionary is SMART. You have to be smart to maneuver a conversation the way he did.

Looking back on it, I'm not sure if one conversation could change my mind. My mind was changed very, very slowly and by many, many conversations. With that said, I think you should just debate one topic and stick to it. Don't change...don't let him change. The reason to select just one topic is because five years from now, that's all he'll remember.

I had a conversation 10 years before I left the church with a guy. He said "Is the world more righteous now than it was 50 years ago?" I said "NO! We are more wicked now than ever!"

Then he said, "We're curing cancer, providing insulin, creating artificial limbs, and generally healing more people with more technology and medicine than in the history of the world. Surely God wouldn't bless us with such longevity for no reason? We're SUPER righteous!"

That stuck with me for a long time. It made no sense to me. Why would God do that? If God wasn't doing that, then why would Satan bless us with long, happy lives?

I guess what I'm saying is that this conversation might have been a major victory for you, but we won't know for years to come. People need lots of time to abandon their delusions.

Personally, I think you were on the right track when you attacked faith. Everyone feels the spirit. Everyone thinks it tells them what is true. Everyone believes in really different things. Therefore, faith and the spirit must be an unreliable way at arriving at truth. His central message is that faith is the ONLY reliable method for arriving at truth. He's using a method that is deeply flawed at finding ANY truth.

This is directly from Peter Boghassian's book, A Manual For Creating Atheists

u/YoungModern · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Get The Persistence of Polygamy off of amazon kindle for $9.73 for your phone or tablet. It's utterly fascinating and he footnotes are fabulous. It's a perfect comprehensive overview on the practise. It's particularly the best place to learn about the family reactions of Fanny Alger, who polygamy was initiated with, and Helen Mar Kimball, his youngest wife. It's brief and it's written by all practising and "believing" scholars that will check out when you google them. It's the single best testimony slaying book available.

Make sure you read the footnotes.

You should also listen to the others who instruct you to listen to the entire FMH Year of Polygamy podcast. It betters as it goes along, particularly after they get to Utah. Be ready to have the shit completely shocked out of you by the time you get to to episode 38.

The best way to listen to the podcasts is through the iTunes podcast app on your phone or iPod. Any podcast app will do though.

u/GettingReadytoLive · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt has done a lot of research on the ideas of religion, morality, empathy, biases, villifying others, etc. He approaches morality from an evolutionary perspective. Watching and reading his work really helped me have more compassion and diffuse some of the anger I've felt. Haidt is a liberal atheist, but he acknowledges the value that can be gained from certain conservative ideals and traditions. I felt like he validated my Mormon experience and the experiences of my loved, while at the same time deconstructing them.

Book:
The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion

http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

TED talks:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind?language=en

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence?language=en

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_how_common_threats_can_make_common_political_ground


In any case, I've gained a lot of empathy from this stuff. It probably saved my marriage and family relationships. It made me feel OK with my family as they are, even if they never change.

u/LamansStick · 1 pointr/exmormon

Have been in the exact same boat and I feel like it took me a lot longer to work through it than most. Also went from being very focused to not being able to focus on anything at all, worried about my job performance, unable to get out of bed on weekends, etc. Prior to my learning that Mormonism was false, I had never experienced a day of depression in my life, but after my world came crashing down it became a long, dark tunnel. Anyway, it's called an existential crisis if you haven't read up on it already. Give it time and keep working on things and I promise it will eventually improve. For what it's worth, these four books were game changers for me (check them out if you're interested:

  • A Confession by Tolstoy. In it, Tolstoy describes how he navigated his own existential crisis. It's a short read and the link takes you to a free downloadable e-book.

  • The Power of Now by Tolle. It provides an excellent approach for developing mindfulness and learning to accept life as it is.

  • Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning by Frankl. This is a heavy read, so if you don't like the first half, just focus on chapters 6, 7, and 8. It covers the intersection of religion and meaning in life.

  • A New Earth by Tolle. Similar to the above "Power of Now." Focuses on being present, overcoming the ego, and accepting and finding peace in life as it's given.

    You may not agree with everything in the books above (I didn't) but they provided me with a lot of invaluable perspective in working through my own loss of faith and the existential vacuum that followed. Stick with it and know that you're not suffering alone! And I promise things will get better.
u/415800002SM · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Hi! I also recommend the Mormon Expression podcast. It's a 6 part series, on Masonry. See http://mormonexpression.com/.

  • I would also recommend reading this address by president David O. McKay

    http://www.understandingyourendowment.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DavidOMcKaysTempleSermon.pdf

  • I also recommend Toscano's analysis of the temple endowment as a messianic sacrament. This is discussed at length in "The Serpent and the Dove" (try the second edition). He does a rich analysis of the symbols.

    https://www.amazon.com/Serpent-Dove-Messianic-Mysteries-Mormon/dp/1514240033/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479989901&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+serpect+and+the+dove

  • I would add that due to the Masonic character of the endowment, each person is invited to discover / assign the meaning of the ritual to himself/herself. You may receive inputs of the meaning from the ritual itself. Even the covenants may mean different things to each individual. There is no authoritative interpretation. Unfortunately, when the ritual is changed the meaning is changed too.

    One interesting aspect of the interpretation of the ritual were the lectures held after the ceremony to explain its meaning. This is documented in Buerger's "The Mysteries of Godliness"

    (https://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Godliness-History-Mormon-Worship/dp/1560851767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479990756&sr=8-1&keywords=The+mysteries+of+godliness). I recommend reading the explanations about the keys of the priesthood as related to prayer.

    I have mentioned before here in this sub that Brigham Young wrote THE lecture at the veil in 1877.

    http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/adamgod.shtml

    In it you can learn about the character of God as manifested in Adam.
    This lecture was morphed into a summary of "the instructions, ordinances, and covenants, and also the tokens, with their keywords, signs, and penalties, pertaining to the endowment, which you have thus far received" in the 1980s (or before). This lecture ended with this beautiful statement (in part it is taken from BYoung's lecture at the veil).

    "Brethren and sisters, strive to comprehend the glorious things presented to you this day. No other people on earth have ever had this privilege, except as they have received the keys of the priesthood given in the endowment.

    These are what are termed the mysteries of godliness--that which will enable you to understand the expression of the Savior, made just prior to his betrayal: "This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."

    May God bless you all. Amen."

    What I mean by quoting all this: at first there was a lot of help to understand the meaning. The ritual had practical use in everyday life (order of prayer), and the people who designed the ritual were alive to guide in this aspect. Masonry was a stepping stone for sure. Then you arrive to the point were the deletions/etc obscured the meaning to the point that you are alone to understand what it means. In 1989 the lecture said that the "keys" received in the endowment are to understand the expression of the Savior recorded in John 17 (and D&C 132).

    So, in practice this means that: (1) you have to experience the ritual, (2) study, meditate, etc (3) try to live what it means to you in order to achieve spirituality. By spirituality I mean what David O McKay once said:

    "Spirituality, our true aim, is the consciousness of victory over self and of communion with the Infinite" (David O. McKay, In Conference Report, Oct. 1969, 8).

    Hope this helps a bit. Cheers!
    (sorry if it is long).
u/53920592 · 8 pointsr/exmormon

First, you're not alone. I was in my early 30's when I lost my faith and it took me 2 years to get over the depression and existential vacuum that Joe's lies left behind.

I was able to eventually work my way through it without meds or any serious counseling, but it was a grueling couple of years. Everyone has to figure out their own path, but what helped me most was reading from others who had faced the same existential vacuum and found a way to navigate it. A few titles that I would highly recommend are:

  • The Power of Now by Tolle.
  • Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Best on audiobook.
  • Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.
  • Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)
  • The Alchemist by Coelho.
  • A New Earth by Tolle.
  • A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.
  • What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it.

    The above, coupled with a lot of patience, exercise, sleep, and proper diet got me through my deep existential crisis. The existentialism still shows up now and then, but it's totally manageable. Good luck to you! You'll have good days and worse days, but stick with it!--I promise it gets better!
u/japanesepiano · 5 pointsr/exmormon

I highly recommend reading "The righteous Mind" by Johathan Haidt available here. It does a really good job of explaining why we justify the religion while we're in and why we're so angry when we get out. I found it useful in processing what's going through my mind now as well as what is going through my TBM wife's mind. In the end, our "rational" minds aren't very rational at all. We are all very good at justifying decisions, but rarely do we objectively make these decisions. It may give you some needed perspective.

If you're shy of 30, I say you have a very good shot at making it out as a family and enjoying some great years whether or not your spouse makes it out. Look back to understand, but don't forget to look ahead and live the amazing life in front of you.

u/RockHat · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Couple things here.

You're describing the same idea as what John W. Loftus called the Outsider Test for Faith: “Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating."

Your former missionary companion seems to be applying Pascal's Wager to Mormonism, without realizing that if Pascal was right to propose this, that means Mormonism had to be false (since Pascal was a Christian, which is at odds with Mormonism). But Pascal was wrong.

Pascal's Wager fails to tell us which God is the right one, and it certainly does not tell us how to please this Being. For all he knows, God gave man reason and then hid Himself from man to test them to see if they would use the reason God gave them to conclude God doesn't exist, thus freeing mankind to develop moral frameworks based in reason, which would please this God. So in this scenario God would reward atheists and punish theists for their rejection of God's gift of reason in favor of faith. Another scenario is that the true God is not known to anyone on Earth and whenever people worship another God it just makes the true God angrier and angrier.

There's also the minor point that if God requires belief then the person using Pascal's Wager isn't providing a genuine faith, but is trying to game the system to cover their own ass "just in case." I doubt God, if such a being existed, would take kindly to this approach since people are trying to use a false faith to trick God into rewarding them for their feigned commitment.

Plus, there is a real downside. Sure, we will all eventually become worm food but between now and then we can either be prisoners to a false religion or live free to achieve our best life. So wasting the one life you've got for a what-if religion is not a costless gamble.

u/TheDukeofEarlGrey · 12 pointsr/exmormon

Get this book.

One of my favorite activities from it is to write these following types of choices up on our little board and discuss each of them.

  1. Impossible. We talked about what superpowers we would want and how there aren't choices we could make that would realize those.
  2. Difficult. We talked about demanding choices such as becoming a scientist, finishing a PhD, climbing a mountain etc that you can do, but can't do right away without repeated effort.
  3. High Consequences. We talked about choices we can make but have high consequences, like never brushing your teeth or hurting others or breaking the law. We emphasized this is a huge part of what parents are trying to do, help us make good choices with good consequences.
  4. Preferences. We joked about what we would do if someone said there was one true breakfast, and there would be consequences if we didn't eat oatmeal every day. Or that I would take away Isaac's iPod if he didn't wear dark socks on Wednesdays. We talked about what books to read, what friends to have, what to study, what to be when we grew up as examples.
u/tonedeath · 5 pointsr/exmormon

Thanks for mentioning us pre-internet pioneers of exmo-ness.

I left in late 1995. Made the mistake of reading Richard S. Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History"

I felt so guilty for reading that book. But, I just couldn't put it down. It was the first time I felt like someone was giving me a real picture of Joseph Smith the man, not the myth. Decided I needed to balance out what I was getting in Van Wagoner's book with something more "church approved." Went to Deseret Book. Asked the girl working if they had anything on polygamy. She said she thought they had one book- they did. It was the book I was already reading.

That was the moment I took the red pill. There was no turning back and the floodgates were opened. I then read:

  • No Man Knows My History
  • Quest For The Gold Plates
  • By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus
  • Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders
  • Secret Ceremonies
  • Where Does It Say That?

    And then I started checking out copies of Sunstone and Dialogue.

    I started checking out some of the articles at Utah Lighthouse Ministries and made one trip to their book store, but I was already becoming an atheist and I didn't really like how they weren't just trying to debunk Mormonism but also trying to sell born again xianity.

    By November of 1996 I was already attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation and also pretty much an athiest at that point.

    When stuff like MormonThink came along, I was already pretty much post-Mormon. And, when I discovered r/exmormon, I was suddenly surprised at how much I liked watching what was happening here.

    I'm always surprised at the announcements people make about being done with this place. But, then I found it when I was already over all the emotional rage at having been deceived. I think I just like watching the train wreck at this point. People's posts here really give me the sense that Mormonism is imploding at a rate faster than this stodgy institution is prepared to deal with- makes me happy.
u/whitethunder9 · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I think you've gained more than you realize. Well, depending on what your LDS life was like. For instance:

  • Intellectual freedom
  • More media choices
  • More clothing choices
  • Less guilt in life (think visiting teaching)
  • Time (lots of it - not just Sundays)
  • Pride in knowing you found your way out of a controlling religion
  • Knowledge that your children will have freedom that you didn't

    I think in time many of your losses will feel less like losses, especially as you find new purpose in life. You might consider reading Man's Search for Meaning. Also, it sounds like you need community. You might try Mormon Spectrum to get started and then branch out from there. And you've always got us to vent/rant with.

    Good luck to you.
u/freedomshocked · 2 pointsr/exmormon

We had a very similar experience! 4 years of treatments, when another IUI failed we called it all off for a break. At that point we were truly at the "not ever going back to church" decision. One month later, preggo! Our son is now almost 17 months, not blessed, will never be involved in the church himself, and I have formally resigned. Its AWESOME! May I recommend two great parenting books I've loved reading and that have helped me a lot on my way out of Mormonism and in learning how to raise my boy without the church?

http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376170920&sr=1-1&keywords=parenting+beyond+belief

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376170920&sr=1-2&keywords=parenting+beyond+belief

Best wishes and of course CONGRATS!!!!

u/aw232 · 1 pointr/exmormon

I've recommended this book on this sub before, but it really is a fantastic read and helps talk to other people and even get some movement on talking with people in the church. It's A Manual for Creating Athiests by Peter Boghossian. It is excellent.

Essentially it teaches people to use the Socratic method to help people understand just how bad faith is at determining what is real. You can also look up "street epistemology" to find other sources and videos of people employing Dr. Boghossian's techniques.

u/TheNaturalMan · 1 pointr/exmormon

I wanted to second /u/lmontr33 's reply.

> Oh, I thought I felt "the Spirit" on several occasions as a youth and a little as an adult. It was usually a tingling in the spine or a warm fuzzy blanket feeling. But I also got the spine-tingling and warm fuzzies watching dramatic secular fictional movies. Reading secular fictional books. Listening to secular music with a good bass beat. There was no difference between feelings in religious settings and feelings in secular settings. Absolutely identical. This alone was not a deal breaker, but I also met people on my mission with stalwart testimonies of their Pentecostal church. I observed the Islamic terrorists on 9/11 with such strong testimonies that they were willing to not only die, but also to kill for their God.

I also felt "the Spirit" when I was a member. I come from a polygamous ancestor who was one of Brigham's apostles. I was baptized at 8 and all the rest. I felt the "tingly tummy" sitting in the old Tabernacle during General Conference and listening to Hinckley speak about new temples being built. I wept with spiritual joy thinking about all of HF's children I might share the gospel with as my plane was landing in Portland, OR to start my mission. I had a testimony and knew the church was true...until my curious nature uncovered a hidden history of the church that prompted me to apply an Outsider's Test of Faith.

I soon stopped partitioning the feelings of "the Spirit" apart and separate from the feelings I felt while watching R-rated films like Philadelphia or Good Will Hunting. How could "the Spirit" prompt me through both an R-rated film about a gay man dying of AIDS and General Conference? The feeling I interpreted as Christ's gospel touching my soul was the same. Does Satan feel the same as the Spirit? Is the only difference context?

If anything my "testimony" led me out of the church. I couldn't deny that the church had lied about it's past. Truth is more important than how I feel about something.

The church uses its trademarked HeartSell^TM to conjure up feelings of "the Spirit". Relying on feelings to tell you the truth of something is to be led by emotional manipulators.

u/cinepro · 1 pointr/exmormon

>That was my only or primary point with that example: that the rule, "he who asserts must prove" is only a very general rule of thumb, and that we are allowed to make presumptions as long as we have some independent grounds for those. If I've established that much - and you seem to have acceded on that - then that point is made. That only leaves one other question.

I've never pretended the claim about Joseph having sex with HMK was anything other than a presumption, or that you weren't allowed to make such a presumption. But even if you consider it a justified or logical presumption, it's still a presumption, and to present it as anything other than that is disingenuous. That's the only thing I've ever raised a question about; the surety with which people present their opinion on the subject.

If people simply said "we presume Joseph had sex with HMK", that would be great. But that's still far different than saying "Joseph had sex with HKM".

I don't mean to be condescending, but it really seems like you haven't done your homework on polygamy. At the very least, if you haven't read "In Sacred Loneliness" and "The Persistence of Polygamy", I highly recommend taking the time to do so, especially if you're going to be making claims based on historical context and what should be considered "unusual" or not for Joseph Smith's polygamy. If you don't have time for "In Sacred Loneliness", the Compton's article here is a decent summary:

A Trajectory of Plurality: An Overview of Joseph Smith's Thirty-three Plural Wives

But if we both agree that the actual evidence is ambiguous, and that claiming Joseph had sex with HMK is a presumption and inference, that's all I've ever been saying, so we don't need to belabor a point we agree on.

u/BlunderLikeARicochet · 4 pointsr/exmormon

This person has definitely been talking to someone trying "street epistemology". It's an approach based on Peter Boghossian's book A Manual For Creating Atheists. For anyone who wants to challenge the religious (or simply irrational) beliefs of others, it's highly recommended.

For a quick taste of the idea, there's a guy on Youtube who interviews strangers using street epistemology. It's careful, non-confrontational, Socratic approach to getting others to critically examine "faith" as a valid tool for acquiring knowledge.

Watch his "breakdown" videos, where he shows encounters with religious people and explains what he's doing in an educational way. It's really fascinating how effective the approach is.

My top two recommends:

Seth, a Christian

Maha, a Muslim


u/[deleted] · 28 pointsr/exmormon

>How did anyone here crawl out of their emotional wreck and become functioning and content members of society after leaving?

First, the existential vacuum is real when leaving the Church and so is the excruciating loneliness. You're not alone and you can make it through. For me, a big part of the answer was just giving it time (cliche, I know, but still true) and just surviving the long, miserable days that followed my loss of faith.

Second, reading books helped. Lots of books from others that have previously dealt with these existential questions. Some recommendations are:

u/crvd · 2 pointsr/exmormon

As for Freemasonry itself, you will have to be very discerning with the information you come across, and especially on reddit.

In the Golden Verses of Pythagoras, it is said,
>
> -> 30. Never do anything which thou dost not understand.
>
> -> 31. But learn all thou ought'st to know, and by that means thou wilt lead a very pleasant life.

I advise against joining Freemasonry as a means to contrast it with Mormonism. A prominent feature of the Mormon temple ceremony is the trade of oaths with penalties for guarded information. This is also present in Freemasonry, and though they would portray themselves as benevolent, there is much to cast this into doubt.

I'm happy to direct you towards information relevant to your search. Maybe this information is not exactly what you are asking for, but I'm sure it will broaden and deepen your understanding of the topic at hand.


  • Joseph Smith and Kabbalah:
    The Occult Connection by Lance S. Owens


  • Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn
    (Amazon)

    Both of these works were rigorously researched and have cited sources. Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View has over 300 pages in notes and sources. It is my opinion that if you don't have an understanding of the esoteric, occult foundation of Mormonism, then you don't understand Mormonism.

    Personally, it has allowed me to temper my understanding of Early Mormonism and the actions of my ancestors. For some, learning this may only condemn it further.

    After finding the edges of the current popularly held views of scientific materialistic reductionism, we are left looking at chaos and nondeterminism with wonder. There are so many evidences that our universe and our existence is much more meaningful than society would admit. Without passing judgement on the details of early Mormon history, I now have greater context for understanding it.

    If you should find yourself lost in searching for answers within the paradigm of linear thinking, send me a message. I have found that some of the greatest minds have been marginalized or silenced for embracing nonconforming, nonlinear, nondeterministic thinking.
u/PostMormon · 1 pointr/exmormon

For a TBM, he does a pretty good job staying neutral, but yes, he has his biases.

You might prefer his:

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

Grant Palmer's book is fantastic.

u/crash4650 · 5 pointsr/exmormon

What an awesome perspective! I've been out for four years and I'm constantly frustrated that my exmormon missionary efforts have been mostly fruitless.

Recently I've been studying Street Epistemology and though I'm still inexperienced, I'm hopeful that I can finally talk to friends and loved ones without anybody getting defensive. You should check it out if you haven't already. This book is literally a manual for using Street Epistemology. Interestingly enough, the goal isn't too de-convert people but rather get them to recognize, just by asking the right questions, the flaws in their own reasoning. If you can get them to be less sure of their beliefs, even slightly, then your encounter is considered a success.

u/bananajr6000 · 9 pointsr/exmormon

Here is a great book about it:

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

It wasn't just Smith Jr and the peep stone (whitewashed to "seer stone",) there were lots of other magical practices the Smith family engaged in. From dowsing that has been scrubbed from the D&C (now listed as the "Gift of Aaron", you know, the one with the staff that allegedly turned into a snake?) to animal sacrifice and the nature of the solstice and what it had to do with recovering the mythical golden plates, the Smiths were deeply engaged in folk magic and the occult. Smith Jr had a Jupiter talisman in his pocket at his death that you can get a replica of today on eBay, and hairs from his and Hyrum's head were placed in walking canes that can be seen at the Daughters of the Pioneers museum today.

One more thing: Smith Jr supposedly learned how to scam people use a seer stone from another seer, Sally Chase and (allegedly) used her stone to locate his first one. I believe it was simply an attempt to legitimize his own scamming by showing he learned from another confidence schemer. Smith Jr never found any treasure that was recovered with his peep stone other than the golden plates, which no one has ever seen, including none of the 3 or 8 witnesses or anyone else. And where are the plates today? Taken away in to heaven? Really?!?

u/Sansabina · 2 pointsr/exmormon

> the modern church offers a lot of value for raising children

When I first left the church I felt the same way.

But then I ordered some non-believer parenting guidebooks on raising your children with ethics and it blew me away.

One easy reading 250 page book had more valuable and useful information on teaching children to be kind and loving than I could find in all the 1000s of pages of mumbo-jumbo, confusing, contradictory scriptures and church publications put together.

Raising Freethinkers - Practical Parenting Beyong Belief

And then there were brilliant books I found for the kids, I stupidly didn't realize stuff like this existed outside the church.

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong

What Should Danny Do?

u/chrises67 · 3 pointsr/exmormon

You are absolutely right – there is no one true way. Good for you for not falling into that trap again. Here is an amazing book I’ve been reading that explores morality and has helped me better form my own morals while understanding morals of others. I highly recommend it.

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion https://www.amazon.com/dp/0307455777/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_AXtYBb10FZHXD

u/zart327 · 3 pointsr/exmormon

Bret Metcalfe’s Book demonstrates how the first books of the BoM were produced at the end of the “translation “ process after the rest of the book had been written because of the loss of the 166 pages Joseph continued on and did not backtrack to first produce Nephi until the end of the process. He shows how the specific details about Christ were written after the later portion of the story had been produced and how vague Joseph is in the first few books with names and places and the story as he perhaps could not remember the names or details written in the 116 pages of the book of Lehi.

Dan Vogel’s you tube accounts demonstrate how the BoM directly deals with issues in Joseph’s home and family issues in an attempt to bring family together on theological issues and draws on the popular issues of the day such as the presumed advanced lighter skinned peoples who were responsible for the mounds and advanced civilizations they observed.

Michael Quinn’s Early Mormonism and Magic World View truly provides the context for Joseph’s treasure digging and how the BOM fits into the magic world perspective even to the day Joseph looked for the plates to have significance in the magic calendar. It is not valid to view the history without the magic overlay.

The most important thing to discuss is the spirit and elevation emotion see https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/08/premium-fix-faith-crisis-one-weird-trick-wood-vs-steel-tools/


https://www.discoverbooks.com/New-Approaches-to-the-Book-of-Mormon-Exploration-p/1560850175.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjw753rBRCVARIsANe3o44oLXnpzGkS8gnEgABdjlmH8YPThwelpNYor5d3N75kKSd8g662I3waAjxbEALw_wcB

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv91bBcxP_pnTAArZuIJqFUPuj8zS2Xwa

u/Joe_Sm · 7 pointsr/exmormon

Dude: Close this deal.


• Grant Palmer's Insider's View of Mormonism

• Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith


MormonThink.com


Close this crap now. Immediately. If you haven't read the two books, they are super easy reads. Nearly as easy as the CES Letter. DO IT!!!

u/richenloaf · 1 pointr/exmormon

I agree with many of the comments here, I think a few soundbites here and there aren't going to do much unless you have a more solid understanding. I would strongly recommend this book
so you can really discuss the issues from a knowledgable standpoint. Besides, maybe you will find out the Mormon church is really true and he will baptize you. Haha.

u/NoMoreIllusions · 1 pointr/exmormon

On the topic of religion in general, which is important to understanding Mormonism as much as any other religion, a few books would help:

The Outsider Test for Faith - John Loftus

What You Don't Know About Religion (but should) - Ryan Cragun
(he is an exmormon, and this adds to the interest for those of Mormon background)

The Varieties of Religious Experience - William James
(a classic)

I also have a somewhat short summary where I examine the claims of the Church:

Examining Church Claims

Good luck!

u/Monster_Popcorn · 1 pointr/exmormon

I've been seeing a therapist in Orem for the past three years. I've managed to get a pretty good handle on it all. I was constantly afraid of getting into trouble at work or at home. I would use google to check laws all the time, seek out reassurance from co-workers and family, only to land myself back at square one. Looking back on my life, it's always been there though, it just came to a head three years ago. I can vividly remember being told , as a teen, that masturbation could lead to homosexuality, it was murder, and one could possibly contract STD's (AIDS mainly) present on your hands. Freaked me the fuck out. I remember finding a 1-800 number for an AIDS hotline and asking them if I could contract AIDS through masturbation. They of course said no, but I must have called them back 20 times that week to "check." I also remember once being told that I would no longer be sealed to my family if I sinned too much. Being an only child, I, of course, felt like that if I fucked up too much, I would no longer be with my parents for eternity, and how much it would break my moms heart. So, the hyper-responsibility and scrupe kicked in.

You are far from alone. My therapist indicated that he's seeing more and more people of my demographic being treated for OCD revolving around perfectionism and scrupulosity, who are also current and former members of the church.

If you haven't already, please get help. If you are unable to, please use these resources. I am not being hyperbolic when I say they saved my life:

Amazing workbook that covers all major themes of OCD: https://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Workbook-OCD-Overcoming-Compulsions/dp/1608828786/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1506268535&sr=8-2&keywords=workbook+for+ocd

Companion book that I bought my wife to help me deal with the hell I was going through: https://www.amazon.com/When-Family-Member-Has-Obsessive-Compulsive/dp/1626252467/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=708TGTKDB2JFQ982YMFY

To help manage depression. Absolutely brilliant. https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1506268610&sr=1-1&keywords=happiness+trap

Also, are you currently in Utah County?

u/infamousjoe2 · 1 pointr/exmormon

And the same applies to you as well. If that's how you want to play the game then neither of us can be right.

As for me and my house, I will rely on the evidence of those that were there and concluded it was a fraud. Their witness, coupled with historical fact, calls the very foundation of Mormonism into question. The historical record stands and it does not support the position that the Book of Mormon is a historical record of people that populated the Americas in 600 BC.

And as for observation and logic, think about the following events:

  • Joseph found a stone in a neighbors well (fact)
  • Joseph used said stone on treasure expeditions (fact)
  • During these expeditions Joseph would put the stone in a hat and position his face in the hat to divine where the party should dig (fact)
  • Joseph was convicted of fraud for doing this in 1826 (fact)
  • Isaac Hale relates that Joseph told him he never could see anything in the stone and that it was a con (Isaac's personal testimony)
  • Joseph translated the Book of Mormon using the same method that he used when treasure digging (fact based on eyewitness testimony)

    So which scenario is more likely? Joseph was conning people during the production of the Book of Mormon much like he was during his treasure digging? Or is it more likely that a rock would display words that Joseph would read to a scribe and that a supernatural being directed Joseph to a set of plates that he never used during the translation?

    You really need to read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.
u/dudleydidwrong · 4 pointsr/exmormon

Lots of people here are or have been in the same boat. You are not alone.

Focus on your relationship with your wife and kids. Most people recommend going very slowly with spouses. You will have to bring up your issues some day. If nothing else your wife may notice your change in attitude. The critical thing at that point (or before that point) is to make sure your wife knows that you love her. You are questioning the church, not your marriage. Many TBMs have trouble making that distinction.

The second most important thing is that when you do start talking to your wife about church issues is to make sure she does not run to her family for advice. That is one reason to start slowly at the very edges. Ask that she keep your confidence. Cultivate the idea that this is something that the two of you have to work out together, and that family interference will only make it worse. It is the two of you against the world.

A family member or close friend leaving the church might be an opportunity to talk about why they left. I know you said that your families are uber TBM, but don't be surprised if someone does come out as ex.

One thing you might do is get a copy of No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie. It is an old book. Get it in paperback and let your wife see you reading it. Encourage her to read it with you.

I think the book used to be sold at Deseret Books, but I don't see it on their website. It might still be available in a brick and mortar store. Here is the Amazon link if you can't find it an official church site.

u/e0052 · 5 pointsr/exmormon

Heard that before. Faith is so obvious because the beauty of our environment can "only" be explained by divinity. Faith is "pretending to know things you don't know." Faith is not a reliable source of why/how one knows something for several reasons.

My personal opinion is if there us a God, he's a jackass and fuck him.

I suggest this book, Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian, if you have not already read it. You can listen to a sample on Amazon.

u/LightMinded · 3 pointsr/exmormon

I don't believe there is. However, on Amazon's listing you can send feedback to Audible requesting an audio version. The link is on the bottom of the right hand column.

>Looking for the Audiobook Edition?
Tell us that you'd like this title to be produced as an audiobook, and we'll alert our colleagues at Audible.com. If you are the author or rights holder, let Audible help you produce the audiobook: Learn more at ACX.com.

u/Praise_to_the_Pasta · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Parenting Beyond Belief —cannot recommend it enough.

I am also eager to check out the companion book: Raising Free Thinkers

u/LucidSen · 1 pointr/exmormon

By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson

Quick read, great full color foldout photos of the papyri (best available anywhere, I believe).

No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

u/BigCircleK · 2 pointsr/exmormon

This! I'm reading Boghossian's 'Manual' on street epistemology right now. It's helped me have calm, rational discussions with my TBM family members when it comes to faith - because it ALWAYS comes back to faith.

Edit: link http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1939578094/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1457876037&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=boghossian&dpPl=1&dpID=41MchZGqb3L&ref=plSrch

u/ShaqtinADrool · 9 pointsr/exmormon

2 great books, on this topic.

  1. An Insider's View on Mormon Origins
    https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922636&sr=8-1&keywords=insiders+view+of+mormon+origins

  2. Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847
    https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/dp/194414109X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922568&sr=8-1&keywords=mormon+counterfeiting

    In summary: Joseph, and others, were heavily involved in conning others. This was their thing. These were not honest farmers trying to make an honest buck. They swindled people. The gold plates were just another con that eventually worked its way into a religion (only after Joseph couldn't sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in order to make some $).
u/ClayChristensen · 3 pointsr/exmormon

Grant Palmer’s Insider’s View is a great start:
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851570/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_3IlOBbH90V1ZN

u/zelphthewhite · 1 pointr/exmormon

Magic World View is a great book, but the first half -- the section that traces the development of folk magic in the West -- is so dense and hard to get through that I usually suggest it after some more accessible material. But Quinn's insights into magical thinking, folk practices, and superstitious traditions in 19th century America and among Mormonism's founders are fascinating.

u/22snappy · 3 pointsr/exmormon

If you read grant palmer's book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" at the same time you read rough stone rolling you can identify more issues. They both address the same problems to some degree but bushman spins it in a pro-mormon way while palmer spins it the other direction.

It is actually quite fascinating to see how two scholars interpret the same facts totally differently.

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

u/BroBrotherton · 5 pointsr/exmormon

That phrase from the temple ceremony was autobiographical. JS was not an original thinker as much as he was very well-read and very tuned in to the philosophies of men and the theological trends of the day. You could have taught your class using Grant Palmer's excellent book.
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851570/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_api_4r3sxbY6AYSPN

u/howardcord · 4 pointsr/exmormon

The video says that you wouldn't be able to do research.

That's BS. I didn't watch past that. If they are going to make stipulations like that, assuming Joseph didn't have access to some sort of research, or a pre-written book even, than I could care less what other shit they dribble on about.

If you have time to read a book, No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie covers a lot on the authorship of the BOM. Truthfully though it wouldn't matter what books or websites you gave your brother, as a true believer he has to deny all evidence contrary to his beliefs.

*Grammar

u/ajay2u · 2 pointsr/exmormon

I was just looking for both of these on Audible, too. Thanks for the tip to request the audio version. I just requested it for both, too. I'd appreciate it if others did, too:

http://www.amazon.com/An-Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/

u/CubingTheSphere · 2 pointsr/exmormon

You pretty much came to the outsider test for faith on your own. Well done!

u/wondrwomyn · 2 pointsr/exmormon

if she still wants to stay within christianity, I suggest UU or TEC (the episcopal church) both are fairly progressive non-indoctrinational churches. We go to TEC, and my girls love it the two oldest got to go to their first sleep away camp and they loved it, they are even open to the fact that even tho I am still Christian, my spirituality is more closely align with agnostic theist and my hubby is Secular humanist/agnostic atheist. but as with everything it would also depend on your parish, not all churches are made equal even within a particular denomination. also I suggest helping her develop her own critical thinking. have her read [the magic of reality] (http://www.amazon.com/The-Magic-Reality-Whats-Really/dp/1451675046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406185178&sr=8-1&keywords=magic+of+reality), and [Philosophy for kids] (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1882664701/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) also read [Raising Freethinkers] (http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406185579&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=raisin+free+thinkers).. Edited: for grammar and to add one more book suggestion..

u/el-greco · 3 pointsr/exmormon

If you want to learn more, this book does a good job examining the evolution of temple worship.

u/SpaceYeti · 4 pointsr/exmormon

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View was on my reading list, but I eventually (and recently) lost interest in reading anymore about Mormonism. I might get back around to it eventually. I did read Studies of the Book of Mormon by B.H. Roberts and An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, by Grant Palmer. From what I understand of The Magic World View, a lot of the same themes are covered in those other two books.

u/ThidwickTBHM · 1 pointr/exmormon

Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins has a nice high-level roundup of the prevailing issues in the 1800s North American protestant zeitgeist that wound up in the BoM, too.

u/JosephsMythJr · 1 pointr/exmormon

I've been thinking of getting this book, maybe you could beat me to it. I also don't have hardly any friends though... it's hard. I do live in Utah, but not for too long hopefully.

u/LDSdotOgre · 2 pointsr/exmormon

Absolutely best historical account of it all coming to be is "No Man Knows my History" by Fawn Brodie.

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

Worth reading every page.

u/KingPabo · 12 pointsr/exmormon

Try less of being an immature asshole and more of a critical thinker. Read some books on church history, the ces letter, A Manual For Creating Atheists, How to be a really good pain in the ass, etc and provide helpful rational polite commentary as the appropriate topic comes up. Really know your stuff and where the sources are coming from. Think about what their responses are likely to be and how to counter them. Consider it waging a polite private war on seminary if it helps you. If the teacher see you as an articulate and convincing influence on the other kids they won't want you there. Otherwise they will just think you are just another immature kid throwing a tantrum.

Or if that sounds like too much work for you than you can just nap your way through seminary or read a book for the few minutes a day they take up. I got a lot of good reading time in there when I was your age.

u/jell-o-him · 1 pointr/exmormon

2 is answered really well in An Insider's View. Essentially, JS knew the bible incredibly well.

u/WhoaBlackBetty_bbl · 7 pointsr/exmormon

You should read An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. It feels less amazing when you take out the parts that could be found in his own back yard.