(Part 2) Best products from r/latin

>And here you have a method (modeled after Suzuki's view of language acquisition) that says playing a small handful of melodic pieces but those to perfection is all you need.

I think the Suzuki method may successfully reproduce the effect of going through hundreds of scales and other exercises that you'd otherwise do like in more boring books like [Whistler] (http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Positions-Violin-Third-Position/dp/1423444876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422686450&sr=8-1&keywords=whistler+violin). But I wasn't aware that teachers use Suzuki as the only material for their students. It was the case for me that I'd have several etude books like Whistler plus a "fun" piece like Suzuki to work on concurrently. Plus I would hypothesize that the core "vocabulary", if you will, is narrower for violin playing than for languages. In other words, you only have to have mastered a relatively small set of variations on the scales, shifting and double-stop exercises before you are able to apply it freely in other pieces. It's like that typing example I mentioned. I only needed to practice for two or three weeks before I was typing completely fluently in a Dvorak layout and in Korean. Compare this with my Latin, where I can drill myself on the endings to the verb "eō" until the cows come home and still stumble when I see something like "inībat".

> We seem to have quite different approaches to language.

After reading the rest of what you wrote, I don't think so, or at least not to the extent that you think. I completely agree with your next statement regarding viewing core language fluency as chunks of words or phrases of varying lengths. Of course scanning language and analyzing syntax at the microscopic level is highly inefficient. I only recommended this as a way to learn the fundamentals before moving on to the 'chunking' phase. But it seems to me that it is still more a matter of chunking grammatical forms than individual words or phrases. Caesar does have a set of very frequently used words but I don't think to the extent that you can call them stock phrases. When I see something like that passage you quoted, for me there is a two part process going on. Just as you do, I instinctively group them together. His, litteris and nuntiis share ablative-like endings so they must convey a "by/for/with" kind of meaning (of course I'm not translating into English as I do this, I'm just trying my best to describe to you in detail the mechanics that happen behind the scenes, i.e. subconsciously, when I read a sentence). Then I interpret the meanings, which is not hard because I know by the stems that they must refer to litterae and nuntium, so there's hardly any difficulty here. Then I see "commotus Caesar" and think this must be the subject and instinctively pair this with the ablative phrase. And so on... But I think this example more demonstrates the repetitive occurrence of form, not individual words & phrases. It could easily be something like "illis servis permotus dux..." or "his legatis, qui in gallia erant, Marcus certior factus..." (k, I'm sure that's not good Latin but I'm trying to make a point). I'm in no way trying to parse them individually. This may be what is happening behind the scenes but I'm not formalizing them into technical terms by saying "ok this is ablative, singular, feminine". The meaning just dawns on me organically. But even if Caesar can be read fluently by having mastered a set of individual stock words and phrases, I think this goes against what our friend here was after, which was about the production abilities in language.

> The second I got that textbook, I realized that the Latin I'd learned hadn't prepared me in any way whatsoever for what Latin actually is

I'm sure you're busy but can you please elaborate on this? If I am taking the wrong path with this, I definitely want to adjust. That being said, my goals for learning Latin are a little different than most, I think.

I write fiction and I love to read. Latin has always interested me as the basis (mostly) for the English language, but I was often too intimidated when I was younger to even attempt to learn it or, really, had no interest. I'm 28 now, and just a few weeks ago, it kind of clicked in my head that I wanted to learn what I could about Latin. I have much interest in ancient Rome and the writings of Iulius Caeser and the rest. However, my true desire is to write fiction in Latin in order to better help people--and myself--learn and understand the language, from real easy 1st and 2nd year ghost tales to real intricate pieces for advanced learners. I want to be able to provide ways for people to enjoy learning what is far too often referred to as a "dead language". In order to do this, I'd like to, not only understand how to read the classical works of ancient philosophers but, be able to read and write modern Latin literature.

I ordered Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis, which is the Latin translated version of the first Harry Potter book. I plan on ordering Hobbitus Ille at some point, as well, which is The Hobbit transcribed in Latin. I desperately want to be able to read these and understand them. I can't yet really read through it as I haven't even touched past/future tenses.

So, with all of that, I have obtained Lingua Latina and the accompanying exercise booklet. I use that just a bit in combination with Rosetta Stone. I don't know if this is common practice with other learners, but I also write and speak, literally, every sentence I read in Latin in Rosetta Stone in an attempt to solidify it into my knowledge bank. I work with it every weekday morning, and have had a couple huge blocks on the weekends.

If my goal is to read modern Latin text, and create my own eventually, would it still be a good idea to drop Rosetta Stone? I am learning quite a bit from it, and it is fun and very useful--the methods in which RS teaches you. I also believe that conversations will be a part of not only what I write but what I read.

>Though its safe to say the owner isn't the subject, or else you would have used suus.

So, in the sentence maritus et uxor eius dormiunt, can you explain why it wouldn't be maritus et uxor suus dorimunt? I look at the sentence and I can already feel it's incorrectly used, but I can't grasp really why/when to use the bit of open endedness, unfortunately.

I think, however, your explanation is making much more sense.

By the way, thank you so much for detailed response. I think you may have cleared that one up for me, but I need to mull it over a bit. Too much bong resin in the brain. :)

I became a fluent Latin reader when I studied for my Latin Ph.D. exam. This meant that I read around 1000 lines or poetry or prose a day...and at one point during this process, I realized I was just reading. Which is why I think they subject us to the Latin Ph.D. exam ordeal...you're expected to be able to read passages without a dictionary or grammar books. I can sightread nearly anything (although for some authors I need a good commentary...looking at you, Lucretius).

The process of fluency is different for everyone (for instance, unlike the other commenter, I don't think listening to Latin would help me at all), so you'll have to figure out what works best for you. For me, the dictionary was key. I don't mean the Collins Gem: my Latin nerdiness is at such a point that I absolutely love poring over the definitions in either the OLD or Lewis and Short. This allows you to see what a fluid language Latin is, and it gives you an idea of the nuances of the vocabulary. It can be tedious, but you're rewarded when the patterns start becoming clear. Keep the big dictionary by your side as you read...or get the Lexidium app on your phone, and use it.

Reading with friends is also a good idea, especially if you're working through a challenging passage. Pick something like a Ciceronian court speech or one of Ovid's Heroides and just work through it over an afternoon...but use a good commentary.

Latin prose composition is helpful for grammar review. I like North and Hillard, but there are other options. Getting back to the basics can be important. Even keeping up with your verb synopses will help you.

Last, teach! If you got a 5 on the AP Latin exam, you can probably tutor other high school students. Tutoring forces you to sight read more and really hone your grammar.

Depends on what you're looking for:

• Grammar approach: Wheelock's Latin. If you like grammar and syntax (which I do), you'll be right at home here. This is a rather popular college textbook.
  
• Reading approach: Ecce Romani - want to read a story and learn the language more inductively? Hit up this textbook. It does have a decent grammar backing, though you may want some more explanation at times. Very useful with cultural and historical explanations. A high-school text.
  
  
• Immersion Approach - Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata - want a book that is purely in Latin and will slowly teach you how to read Latin? Choose this. Like Ecce, tells a story, but no English explanations whatsoever. Immersionists and oral Latin folks are big fans of this. I'm told this has been used at the American Academy at Rome.
  
  
• Grammar-Lite Approach - Jenney's Latin - a bit off-put by the enormity of Wheelock? Still want grammar? This is a high-school level text that is grammar-centric, but won't smack you over the head with it. Note: hasn't been updated in a while, might find this one in older Latin programs.
  
  
• Immersion-Lite Approach - Cambridge Latin Course - not a big fan of total immersion like in Lingua Latina? This text will have the story and English explanations of Ecce, but with much more Latin around. This textbook probably does the best job of teaching history, culture, and mythology as well. You might also be an Anglophile if you choose this book, as it's huge in the UK.
  
  These are the big ones that I know of. I'm sure there are more out there, so other folks, please comment! I'm also sure that some of my own biases might have come out in the post. I've personally used all of these in my classroom (high school Latin teacher here) to some extent except for Cambridge.
  
  Best of luck to you in your pursuit of learning!
  
  edit: clarity

> This particular departmental person likes to micromanage (or appear to be doing so)

This is basically the exact opposite of how good teaching happens. You can't micro-manage it because everyone teaches differently. You have to let people be themselves in the classroom or they won't be at all - except for being insincere and unmotivating. Students (at all levels) learn more from teachers who are passionate about what and how they're doing things. Taking that away is a great way to ensure that your students hate the class and become disinterested.

>It seems (we've only had one meeting thus far) to be a "share experiences" type of meeting

This is actually useful. Many of my best learning experiences in terms of growing as a teacher have come from sharing what I'm doing with colleagues and reflecting on it. If managed correctly, it can be a hugely beneficial process. If managed incorrectly (as it sounds like here) it can become a great process for saying "No, you didn't do it the way I told you. You're wrong. Do it again my way."

>I mean, the only thing that really qualifies me to teach these kids is that I know some shit, I've read some shit, and I was enthusiastic enough to get her support for it.

I mean, that's basically what qualifies most of us to teach most of the time. Even the "traditional" teachers are in this boat - it's all theory until you step inside a classroom and try to make the pieces fit together in a way that works for you. No worries. You'll get it down eventually. Good teaching is really hard to do. Anyone who tells you otherwise isn't a good teacher.

>mostly because our numbers are a bit sad. I think the department had more Greek 101s this semester than Latin 101s.

This sounds like the department needs to look at who is in charge of teaching the Latin sections (both prof. and TAs) and how that's happening. This is an absurd statistic that I've never heard of anywhere before and must in some way reflect how the course is being managed on an admin. level.

>It's a bit patronizing, really. Especially at the university level. These are full grown adults. But we still need to use stickers and read "The Night Before Christmas" to them in Latin in order for them to stay with it? I think not.


The sad thing is that these attempts to "make it relevant" ARE patronizing and DO drive students away. No one wants to be treated like a child (as an adult). I bet that's part of the enrollment issue.

>every TA gets a 2 day training session before they're considered "ready" to teach. Two days.

This is absurd. Anyone who think that's enough time to train someone to teach is out of their skull. I spend more time training my volunteers to teach in a leadership program I help manage. There's no way that should be an acceptable program for a University.

>TA quality can be really abysmal. If you have a person droning on, reading off a PowerPoint for 50 minutes four days a week, you will have complaints regardless of the topic. And hence, shit TAs lead to massive over-corrected oversight. That's just what I surmise through deduction, however.

This is so true. And the sad thing is that many of those TAs go on to be professors that teach that way. As a policy I used to skip classes like that in Uni. because I could accomplish twice as much in half the time at home and still get the "A". That anyone could "teach" that way and call it anything close to "effective" is a farce.

A friendly suggestion to you: here are the four most useful texts I've encountered in terms of teaching. I know that not all of them are written for the university level, but they all provide unique insight into parts of the process. If you can get your hands on them, I really suggest you spend some time reading them. Not because I think you're one of those shit TAs, but because it really seems like you don't want to be one and I doubt that your Uni. is going to offer much support in the way of helping you not do that.

1. The First Days of School by Harry Wong. This is hands-down the best down-and-dirty guide I've encountered to basic teaching. Honestly, I don't think it will make anyone a great teacher, but it most definitely will make anyone that goes into the classroom and understands this book a competent teacher. I recommend it here especially for the thoughts about procedure and classroom management - two things that most Uni. people don't think they need to worry about, but two of the biggest areas that impact what you can accomplish in a given time period.
   
   
2. Why Don't Students Like School by Daniel Willingham. This is basically a high-level summary of what we know about brain science and learning written by one of the world's experts on Cog. Sci. and Ed. Totally useful for understanding the mechanical process that is "learning" and how to manage it more effectively based on what we know about it thus far.
   
   
3. Teacher's Handbook: Contextualized Language Instruction by Shrum and Glisan. This is the ACTFL-recommended basic text for foreign language pedagogy. It'll bring you up-to-date in terms of research and best-practices on a variety of different L2 teaching levels. You'll also come to realize how fucked our current pedagogy model is for Latin & Greek.
   
   
4. Understanding by Design by Wiggins and McTighe. UbD is technically a curricular framework for thinking about how we plan our courses, but it also applies to the micro-level in terms of how we plan our lessons. The big idea: start with a list of mastery concepts that students need to demonstrate competency in and work backwards. The book is totally worth it as a thinking-tool for how you go about planning and executing your lessons.
   
   Bonus Teach the Latin, I Pray You by Paul Distler. Distler offers an alternative to the current Latin L2 pedagogy we use. I'm not 100% on board with D.'s methods, but in terms of how we go about things currently vs. what you'll find in Shrum & Glisan, he's WAY closer.

I would recommend that you study some Romance linguistics. It will be more work at first, but the pay off in the end will be huge.

Start here [with the basic sound changes] (http://press.georgetown.edu/book/languages/latin-romance-sound-charts)

And then pick a historical grammar for whatever Language you're interested in. This, for example, is not a bad book for French

What you'll realize first of all is that Romance languages don't come from classical Latin, but rather Vulgar Latin, Latin as spoken by most people.

There's all kinds of good work for Vulgar Latin, too, but even this wiki page is decent

Romance linguistics is a very well-studied field, with lots of secondary literature. And once you start seeing patterns, nothing will surprise you in Romance languages! Good luck.

NB: I'm not at all very good at Latin.

My middle school started foreign languages in 6^th grade, and I picked Latin since my brother had chosen French and my parents thought Spanish was too easy. So I did two years in middle school, then I went to secondary school in 8th grade where an ancient (Latin or Greek, but Greek wasn't available to 8^th graders) and a modern language (at the time just French or Spanish) were required. My two years of middle school Latin covered maybe three months of high school Latin I, then it was all new stuff. After two years of Latin (the minimum), I dropped it and picked up Spanish.

I'm good enough to give you a halfway decent motto or tattoo translation, but reading actual ancient authors is tough for me. For interest's sake, I checked out the beginning of De Bello Gallico on Project Gutenberg just now, and I really need to bone up on the little connecting words to even know how the phrases relate to each other. I have a similar problem when reading, say, a French or Spanish newspaper; my vocab is just too limited in all of these languages for me to be any kind of awesome.

What's my advice, then? As for books, I learned from Wheelock. It's pretty good. But I was in a class, and I learn way better when I'm in a structured environment like that, so I have no idea if it's any good for the autodidacts of the world. I highly recommend making a ton of flash cards (the Pacon ones are my favorite) and learning the hell out of the vocab. And when it comes to vocab, I implore you to hammer the itsy-bitsy connecting words. For instance, in the linked Gallic Wars I had to look up the following little guys, all of which should come naturally if I want to read any of this quickly.

• propterea therefore, for that reason; I thought I knew that but I was thinking of "propter", a preposition meaning nearby.
  
• Horum Genitive plural of hic, meaning "this" or these"; I actually thought I knew that, but I had to look it up to be sure.
  
• minime least of all. I only knew this as "no," which I am led to understand wasn't a classical usage of the word.
  
  Those are just the prepositions, adverbs, determiners, connectors, what will have, you that I didn't know in the first sentence of the third paragraph. Getting through this book would be, as you can imagine, a slog for me. So learn them shits if you want to read any classical Latin.
  
  What am I actually good at, then? Since I understand (roughly) how to decline and conjugate nouns and verb (respectively), I can express a sentence reasonably well by getting the vocab I don't have from Wiktionary, where it is conveniently tabulated. Thanks, nerds of the internet.
  
  Spero arbitreris hoc utile—I hope you find this useful. I had to go to Wiktionary thrice in there, and I'm not sure how to deal with deponents^+ . So maybe don't take my advice on translation with deponents.
  
  +Deponents are verbs with a passive form and an active meaning. They can be transitive (take objects), but not all of them do. For instance, "speak" is "loquor," which deponent, and I don't think it's transitive. To say "I speak Latin" you say "I speak latinly"—"loquor Latine."

Audit a course if you can then. Otherwise, there's an app for SPQR Latin that I have for my computer, which costs some money but is basically a nicer (if more limited) Perseus. That's good for a mac, but if you have a windows, I'd download Whittaker's Words (a dictionary) (if it's anything like what used to run on my old Mac, you'll love it) and use thelatinlibrary.com.
If you're going to be self-directed, you need to choose your own texts. Personally, I like humor, so I'd recommend Plautus (specifically the Pseudolus), but 1) this is archaic Latin and so a little different (-os for -us, more future imperatives, small things), and 2) this is not available on SPQR.
Finally, since you're evidently not yet in college, I want to make sure you know about:

1. Cambridge Classics: commentary books available for various texts; they come packed with endnotes which will sometimes answer your grammar questions (though it might just be easier to post them here). Example: https://www.amazon.com/Horace-Satires-Cambridge-Greek-Classics/dp/052145851X
   
2. Loebs: they have the Latin on one side and English on the other - but this approach often leads students to use the English as a crutch too readily
   
3. Perseus: a website with online texts and a slightly-too-confusing dictionary entry for most words you click on
   

And this, this, and this, supplemental reading for chapters I-XXIV, I-XXV, and XXVI-XXXIV respectively.

Colloquia Personarum and Fabellae Latinae contain additional stories about the same characters featured in LLPSI Pars I, but with more emphasis on (and a more sympathetic portrayal of) side characters such as the doctor and the schoolteacher.

Fabulae Syrae is an adaptation of Greek and Roman myths from Ovid. I highly recommend it, as it contains more complex sentence structures, much more practice with the subjunctive in its various forms, and some very cool mythological stories that are fun to read and will come in handy if you want to understand works of literature and art that reference them.

Kindle Touch, with this dictionary. There are other dictionaries, there are free ones, and I'm sure most will work. E-ink's the way to go for a simple reader, but I wish my Kindle had some sort of lighting, which will be on future models I understand, but is something other brands already have.


The books come from anywhere on the internet. Some are free and already on Amazon, some I copy-paste from The Latin Library. Word files, .txt, .pdf, and more all work for this. I use calibre to manage things and convert formats that aren't easily workable.

There is some bugginess with language tagging in the metadata, and the easiest way to get around it all is to just archive all your other dictionaries while reading Latin books. This makes it so the Kindle defaults to your Latin dictionary to look up words.

Whenever you go back to English or other languages, just remember to bring your dictionaries out of archive if you want to use them.

Lewis has an abridged version called An Elementary Latin Dictionary which is cheaper, but still kind of expensive. Another solution might be to get something like Cassel's Latin Dictionary for the basics and use the online Lewis & Short as needed.

I also have Lewis & Short on an iPad app, which works great.

Cambridge University Press recently republished the Aeneidea of James Henry in 5 volumes. The work is a vast commentary on the Aeneid originally published 1873-92. It doesn't meet the standards of a modern commentary like Nicholas Horsefall's contributions, but it makes up for that in its often florid and encyclopedic comments, which are much more fun to read.

​

The entire set will set you back a cool $250 on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Aeneidea-Set-Exegetical-Aesthetical-Collection/dp/1108063896/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=aeneidea&qid=1558365489&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Updated the quote.

It is more difficult to learn and perfect Latin than to learn English, so there is an intrinsic difference between languages. Even everyday speech in Latin sounds like something that is read at a poetry recital.

The difference can be clearly seen when comparing the 1611 KJV (not the more recently diluted versions) with the NIV. While the KJV is more eloquent it is also only fully readable by the aristocracy. So there is a scale in which a language either promotes the interests of the aristocracy or everybody.

British Council's presentation of how KJV affected the English language.

---

A ted talk on how the English language promotes democracy, a sentiment that is echoed by Akio Morita when comparing English to Japanese.

The Lewis's Elementary Latin Dictionary, easily. It's comprehensive without being overwhelming (I'm looking at you, OLD). Before that, when I was first learning, the Cassell's dictionary was surprisingly good for the price. Online, though, Wiktionary is my first choice, followed by whatever Perseus has.

This has come up a few times before. The usual suggestion is the Oxford Classical Text, which may not be "beautiful" or luxurious but is certainly nice enough.

I create ebooks that I can read on my Kindle with help of a Kindle version of William Whitaker's WORDs dictionary. A few examples:

• Seneca
  
• Wojtyła, Montini, et al
  
• Cicero
  
  Also, TLM.

You may like Latin For All Occasions . Beard actually gives a translation for that.

Futue te ipsum atque equum in quo vectus est.

There's stuff like this:

http://www.amazon.com/College-Companion-Oerbergs-Vocabulary-Grammar/dp/1585101915

http://www.amazon.com/Exercitia-Latina-Exercises-Familia-Romana/dp/1585102121

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Opera-Oxford-Classical-Texts-Latin/dp/0198146531

I'd only say that Wheelock isn't the best supplement to Lingua Latina because the books are structured differently: the concepts are introduced in a different order, and both have different areas of emphasis.

Don't get me wrong: it's a great grammatical reference, but you can't really go through both books at the same time and expect a cohesive curriculum.

Lingua Latina has its own supplements, btw

i have one called 'electronic latin dictionary' that works very well with inflected forms but i can't find it in the store anymore.

i wonder if this one is an updated version. it says it handles u for v which the one i have doesn't (which is an issue for some of the delphi classics editions) https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Latin-Dictionary-Thomas-McCarthy-ebook/dp/B005CA3W2G/ref=nodl_

tldr absolutely and there's even one for ancient greek too!

The story of Familia Romana gets better as the book progresses. If you're stuck in the first third, I can see it being a slog at times. It also opens up quite a bit if you read the ancillary materials, which flesh out the characters and introduce various subplots with overlapping timelines and such. There are three:

Colloquia Personarum is a collection of readings meant to accompany the first 24 chapters of Familia Romana

Fabellae Latinae is a similar but open-source (nisi fallor) supplement with readings that correspond to the first 25 chapters of FR.

Fabulae Syrae is a collection of adapted myths of Ovid; it follows Colloquia Personarum and the readings correspond to the final ten or so chapters of FR.

Do you have the college companion to Lingua Latina?

Is this the same thing?
https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-College-Companion-Vocabulary/dp/1585101915/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8