(Part 2) Best products from r/sailing

The Complete Sailor, by Seidman & Mulford.

I'm reading the second edition of the Slight / DK manual at present, and IMO it's quite poor. It features an incorrect theory of aerofoils [more], and the layout is a bit cluttered, but most importantly it's badly written. Sentences are poorly phrased, with repeated and redundant words, whole descriptions are a messy clusterfuck, and the author uses nautical words which it doesn't explain or define (and I'm sure at least once wasn't in the index).

I was impressed by The Complete Sailor when I read it, my first sailing book, but having read two more in the intervening weeks, my opinion has only hardened.

It is a beautifully and elegantly constructed work, and I say that not just because of Mulford's illustrations - he does deserve as much credit as Seidman - but also for the layout and the way topics are handled. Each page or pair of facing pages covers a single topic, and there's something particularly impressive in how it's explained in a way that the reader can understand - the book starts by talking about the wind, and thereafter every term or concept that is used to explain the current topic is one that has been explained already, previously in the book.

I really think that the authors deserve a lot of credit for how they lay a foundation of information and then build upon it - they make everything simple and logical, and any time you think "what does that mean?" you know that it's already been covered, and it's easy to flip back to the right section. The authors have taken a lot of information about a complicated subject, and made it really accessible.

The Complete Sailor also focuses more on the core concepts of sailing and seamanship than the other books do - they make more digressions about types of life preserver, wood vs GRP, details of yacht vs dinghy, and key dates in yachting history.

I haven't read Sailing for Dummies, but Herreshoff's Sailor's Handbook is pretty good, and I'd recommend anyone pick up a secondhand or remaindered copy to set alongside Complete Sailor. There's probably some stuff in the former that the latter skips.

The Dorling Kindersley book, though, just feels a bit like marketing-orientated writing - it's a thick book, full of high quality glossy photos and clean modern illustrations; it probably looks commanding in the store, and it'll probably be bought as a present by mothers and grandmas for teenagers who have developed an interest in the sport. Nevertheless, it's cluttered, hard to read and factually wrong.

I know that I could have expressed this comparison with more clarity, but it's late here, so I can only apologise.

Around the World in Wanderer III by Eric Hiscock is fantastic. If you're looking for a more instructional book I'd also advise Cruising Under Sail by the same author.

Hard to have any list about cruising without starting off without mentioning Slocum's Sailing Alone Around the World as he was the inspiration for many of the following authors. He fixed a wrecked hulk of a sloop in a field in CT that he was given for free (as a joke) then proceeded to sail alone around the world (as the title would lead you to believe). At the time everyone thought that it would be impossible and likely suicidal to try and sail a boat so small around the globe and he apparently caused quite a stir when he did.

Of course The Long Way by Bernard Moitessier is an absolute classic for sailing literature. His was an account of the Golden Globe non-stop solo circumnavigational race, so there's not really any island hopping or drinks in paradise, but his writing is amazing and really gets to the zen of being at sea. He also named his boat JOSHUA after Cpt. Slocum mentioned above.

Jack London loved to sail and had a ketch (I thought it was a schooner, and Amazon page says schooner, but looking on GIS looks more like a ketch) built and sailed around the South Pacific and wrote about it in The Cruise of the Snark. London has some really funny commentary in there and it's a hell of a good read.

Last, and most expensive, is South Sea Vagabonds by John Wray. This book has been out of print for a little while and apparently is in high demand by looking at the price now. The cheapest I've ever seen it is between $40 and $50. I got my copy from a seller on eBay that lived in New Zealand for about $25 USD but after shipping ended up being about $40 total. That said, it was worth every penny. John Wray got fired from his job for daydreaming about sailing all day and since he had nothing but time on his hands decided to make a boat. Found all his wood on beaches and used his friends sailboat to haul it back to a mill, used a motorcycle and trailer to haul it from the mill to his house, then built a sloop with no prior ship-building experience. He sailed it all around the South Seas on various adventures and, like London, is a great and humorous author. Keep an eye out on ebay and used book sites for this one at a decent price (or find a library to borrow it from) because I guarantee that it's worth the effort and cash.

If you're into tall ships I just finished The Peking Battles Cape Horn by Irving Johnson which was a quick but thoroughly entertaining read. I'm now working my way through Two Years Before the Mast which is an amazing insight into the life of the merchant marine in the early 19th century aboard a square rigger.

I wasn't thinking of wind exposure on the large windows, more like what can happen when a really big wave hits them :)

It really comes down to personal comfort. For myself after I do some island hopping I've been looking at maybe getting a Tayana 37 cutter for ocean hopping. Small windows, full keel, small cockpit, plenty of sail and fuel, a proven world cruiser.

You might consider buying this book: http://www.amazon.com/Seaworthy-Offshore-Sailboat-Essential-Features/dp/007137616X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342194688&sr=8-1&keywords=offshore+boat

Basically learn up on the sort of features you need and then make a call on whether or not your boat can be modded to get it to the point where you'd be comfortable make the trip.

But at at certain point, to me, it becomes better to buy a different boat. For example I have a Pearson 323 now and I could mod her for an Atlantic trip. Re-inforce the rigging, maybe add another compression post in the cabin to add structure, toss on a liferaft and rig her up for a drogue.

But considering she's worth 20k and for 50k I can get a nice Tayana 37 it doesn't make much sense to toss 20k into her to rig her up for a trans Atlantic trip. Especially when you consider that any buyer looking for an offshore boat isn't going to be shopping for a heavily modded coastal cruiser. I'd basically be tossing "offshore boat" money into a "coastal cruiser" market. I'm better off buying that Tayana and putting offshore money into her.

But maybe you don't need to add much to your boat for a 1 off Atlantic trip. In that case it may make sense to get to the bare minimum of your comfort level, wait for the best time of year and then head on out, enjoy yourself and come back home.

I'd just really research up, learn the risks and just talk with your significant other what level of risk you're comfortable with. That's really the important part and everyone is different in that regard.

Glad to be able to share.

If you find the story of Moitessier's race interesting, Robin Knox-Johnston provides a really interesting counterpoint with "A world of my own"

He is the British stalwart plucky "stiff upper-lip" counterpoint to the frenchman's "I go because i must and the rest will happen"

"A Voyage for Madmen" is a great summary of all the viewpoints in that race, which includes a lot of great info from Nigel Tetley, and Donald Crowhurst (subject of the Deep Water documentary) whose books I haven't yet collected.

Another great collection I have surround the Vendee Globe race of 96-97 include "Godforsaken Sea" as a good overall coverage of the race which included the death of a competitor, and miraculous rescue of another by his fellow racer Pete Goss, whose "Close to the wind" is another plucky british tale of plugging on against all odds.

I'd love to see what you finally submit, so if you want to throw it up somewhere when you're done, pass along a link.

It isn't easy... Nor would you save any money versus buying a decent used boat. Building boats using the "Stitch and Glue Method" is fairly easy for the novice boat builder. But you are limited to fairly simple hull shapes, which isn't to say they are bad performers, but they do have their limitations. Books like "Build the New Instant Boats" is a good way to get started in that regard. Once you have a few simple boats under your belt you can give Cold Molding a try to get more complex shapes.

For plans similar to the above sort of catamaran, you can look through the plans at places like Duckworks Magazine or Duckworks Boatbuilding Supply.

The best piece of advice I can give is build a boat if you love building boats. Buy a boat if you love sailing.

I had a 1976 hunter 25 last year and had the same concerns you have. I went on a 10 day trip in the San Juan with my girlfriend and I picked up the hydro force Caspian. It is definitely small but I'm 6'3 about 200lbs and she is 5'2 at about 120 and we were fine even with gas cans and groceries.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CC8ZXTQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1466106166&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=hydro+force+caspian

A hard transom was important because I had a little 2 horse engine I put on it. The hydro for e was the best priced and has held up well. It rolls up compact and takes about 5 min to deploy. We usually deflated but also towed it without any trouble. With anything like this I would make sure not to leave it out too much uncovered as the UV will break down any PVC tender. Or alternatively get some 303 aerospace Protestant and apply.

Good luck!

As the widely varying answers in this thread suggest, the size of the boat is far from the sole criterion you should be considering; people have traversed the oceans in rowboats. It's not comfortable, but it CAN be done.

Instead, you should ask yourself the question "What do I want to accomplish, and what are the options available to me within my budget?" The Pardeys circumnavigated in a 24-footer that I would find extremely cramped, but they were competent sailors, knew what they enjoyed, and they did a great job of it.

If you're thinking about production boats, this book would be a good place to get you started. In the end, it's a combination of factors having to do with you, the boat, and the way you intend to sail her.

That's awesome to hear, and once you get one welcome to the club. If you were anywhere near West Michigan I would invite you to join us but I'm guessing your not.

In response to a few things I have read while skimming this thread:

Hobie 16 are not hard to recover from a turtle. I would not recommend using a bob (giant float at the top of the mast) because I had heard of people suffering from a lost of speed due to wind resistance. Unless you and your crew are both tiny people or you will only be sailing it in lakes less than 20ft deep righting a 16 is fairly easy. All you have to do is release all of the sheets, pull out as much slack as you can on the main sheet, and then get all of your weight on the back of one of the pontoons. This will cause the bow of the opposite pontoon to rise and you can get it back to being on its side where you can do a normal recover. On that note I highly recommend a Hawaiian style righting system.

Yes they are big to trailer, but without going to a mano-slug with a drop keel or a bigger catamaran you won't find any dingy with that much sail area and or power to weigh ratio.

The one down side of any type of multi-hull that that they can almost always be out pointed by a mano-slug. If you are unfamiliar with pointing that is how close to straight into the wind you an go while still producing thrust with the sails. With a Hobie 16 you can get in the ball park of 45* off straight into the wind where with a mano-slug you can get about another 10 to 15 degrees closer. Where multi-hulls make up for that is in the speed. To make it to an upwind mark we may not be able to take a more direct route, but we can cover more distance faster. Plus, on a reach we can blow anything else out of the water.

Tacking (changing direction with the bow passing through directly into the wind) is more difficult than on a mano-slug, especially having to cover more of a change of angle thanks to not being able to point as well. This can be compensated with good technique. The basics of that are to keep the jib on the same side until and then let it back wind for a moment to let the wind push the bows through the dead zone and then bringing the jib over on the new tack. This can also be assisted by crew weight distribution to bring the new leeward bow out of the water so there is less resistance to turn.

You absolutely want to sail with a jib. While there are other designs of cats like the Hobie 14 (non turbo) that don't have a jib, the 16, as someone else mentioned, uses the jib as the forestay when when the jib is up. The jib and the main work in tandem by controlling the air moving over the main that helps generate forward force, and without a jib you are really SOL when it comes to tacking as the main alone is just going to act like a giant weather vain.

The name of the book may make it seem comically outdated but Catamaran Racing for the 90's is still often referred to as the Bible of cat sailing
http://www.amazon.com/Catamaran-Racing-For-Rick-White/dp/1880871009

If you have any other questions you are more than welcome to send me a PM. I have sailed little sail boats, raced big sail boats, and I have owned a Hobie 16 for about 4 years now (my girlfriends name for it is "The Mistress").

There are some terrific books on simple boatbuilding. A great place to start is the book Instant Boats and this one by Gavin Atkin. For a really simple design look into a Puddle Duck - single sheet of plywood, can be built in a weekend.

I hate when people on Reddit crap on somebody who's just trying to learn as much as the next guy, but you need to burn this in a firepit and start over, friend.

You can't just wing this, it's not gonna go well, it's really not. Your single biggest issue here is the weight of all that lumber, if nothing else.

[EDIT]: As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Hannu's site has some terrific free plans. Just for the love of all that's holy don't wing it. And use plywood stringers, 2x4's are way too heavy.

This title is on Netflix currently. Glad you pointed it out!

I haven't watched this, yet. Seeing the comments about Crowhurst and Moitessier piqued my interest, though. I will watch it tonight.

When I saw the name I assumed it was the movie about the couple stranded in the middle of the ocean Open Water.. a though so terrifying to me that I have no interest in exploring it for entertainment purposes.

If you haven't read it, the book A Voyage for Madmen (NYTimes book review, Amazon link) is a really great read.

Reading Moitessier (he published several excellent titles about his voyages over the years, including his account of this race) leads me to believe he was far from mad. He simply came to realize what he valued most highly while it was still within his power to achieve it. We should all be so fortunate.

Most boat shops have a gift section (At least in Sweden that is my point of reference), steer away from tacky signs like whiskey time is 12:00 to 11:45 etc.

If he don't have one A handheld weather station works for all boat sizes and are (at least for sailors) worth having, https://silva.se/product/uncategorized/adc-summit/ (example)

As suggested below, winecups out of quality plastic, not something that is always prioritized but increases the quality of life at sea.

Sailors canvas bags (https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00L7SEK8W/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new) not something that is a priority to buy but is awesome because they are good for ropes, clothes, dirty clothes, in short words there is a lot of ways to use them.

A water tight wrist watch, with background light of some sort.

A head torch with white and red light for maintenance and night sailing. (Even if one have one, one can have one more)

Nice tools, socket wrenches, allen keys are used everywhere, a good quality spanner is also golden.

Brass insert - like you find in plastic molding, or in wood working. One for each corner. There are several types, wood working ones have a complete screw on the out side.

Like this: https://www.amazon.com/10-24-Threaded-Inserts-Length-SNG871/dp/B07XC6QTW6

Others have part of the thread removed (so it will not come out) or they are knurled, a knurled or modified thread will not back out of the epoxy

You can modify a knife edge thread by bending/cutting/whatever ... thus when the epoxy hardens, it can’t back out.

I assume you can remove the lid and turn it upside down, meaning: Hole side up.

Then like kev-lar70 says: Remove the core with an allen wrench in a drill, you need some area inside the lid to pour the epoxy and for it to grab into and form onto. Scuff up so your epoxy can get type of a grip.

Pour the epoxy in a hole, then while it is wet - insert BRASS threaded inserts

While the epoxy is wet, you need to keep the INSIDE thread clean, so take a screw dip it in vaseline (or simular), then screw it into the insert. Make this screw extra long so it is like a handle to hold it in place as the epoxy sets. The goal of the vaseline is to keep the epoxy out of inside thread, and act like a “release agent” for the space between the brass insert and your screw.

I would make one or two practice ones to see how well it works, and to understand how well the insert holds and stuff like that.

How big's the dog, by the way?

Based on everything you've written in this thread, a Snark may be your boat.

But if so, sail it for what it is. None of the upgrades you mention will meaningfully enhance your sailing experience or the speed you travel at.

You're not going to store the boat *in* your house are you?

If it's just the carry and cartop, folks do commonly do that on a laser and similar boats with the aid of a dolly for moving the boat and properly configured roof rack, where, as another poster mentioned, you stand the boat up, lean it on the rear rack, then lift it upwards.

A dolly like this makes the 100 yard carry a cinch:

https://westcoastsailing.net/parts/dollies?_bc_fsnf=1&Type=Sailboat+Dolly

For your use case, I might still go with a craigslist canoe fitted with a sailing rig. Still probably want a dolly to schlep it with but they make those pretty cheap:

https://www.amazon.com/TMS-CART-CANOE-KAYAK-KY001-Carrier-Trolley/dp/B0082365AQ/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_468_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=88550C2XAX7MWZ5XA368

EDIT:

I looked at your earlier replies. You already have a sailing pram that does everything you need - it's just a pain to cart it and load it.

Rather than engineering a snark that doesn't capsize, I'd suggest turning your engineering mind back to the problem of transporting the boat you already have more easily.

Start with a boat dolly like I linked before. That gets it to your SUV.

Now you just need to deploy a couple slide ramps to protect the car, then slide the pram up onto the roof rack without touching the body of the car.

Break down the dolly and throw it in the back. Reverse at the other end.

Show up at a Laser regatta sometime and watch the sailors deploy their boats. Many come on a trailer, sure. But not all. And they all rig and launch the boat single handedly. And lasers weigh 130lbs.

Here's a couple clever approaches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-DbIPpMi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs199Fdqpto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs199Fdqpto

Don Casey is fantastic his section of Sail is one of the best reasons to get the mag. I also recommend The Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual as a primer to understand more about fiberglass and older boat construction as well as to give you an idea on how much work you have ahead. Also start getting this catalog so you can get a feel for prices, and this book to help you know the exact name for what you need.

I'd recommend signing up for a basic class at a sailing school. Hands on learning will get you where you want to go much faster.

Additionally I'd recommend High Performance Sailing by Frank Bethwaite which is absolutely great even for beginners that only have a basic understanding of what a boat is made up of. This is probably why I say additionally, because you'll want to combine it with a class. Learning by doing is still a mantra even if you're a very theoretical person.

The book has a lot of information on wind, trim (sail shape and position), handling, and a bunch more things and presents it in a clear way on top of that. It's also a bit more in-depth than other books I've read that just preach old ideas about trim, this actually explains it.

I hear you. If I were going to start looking for a passage making boat today, I'd start with this and this.

Then I'd look here and see what others are doing. If you're going to go small, I personally like S/V Prism and their Hans Christian 33. On the opposite side, S/V Delos is a gigantic Amel Super Maramu. But La Vagabonde crossed the Atlantic in a Beneteau, so you have a lot of options (not even counting catamarans). In your case, resale value is probably more important, so an older boat might be better.

I have a small 27' boat, and was struggling with finding a good dingy. I needed something small enough to deflate a stow aboard, but big enough for two people and the dog. I ended up settling in this one: HydroForce Caspian 7'7" Inflatable Boat https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CC8ZXTQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_m2--ybHYGPGD2 . It's worked well for me so far, and I'd recommend the boat. It has low freeboard, so you can get wet when it's choppy, but it also has good structure that makes it easier to row.

I'd just like to point out that although the Bernoulli effect is secondary, it is in fact still very important. If thrust were the only force at play, then sailing faster than the wind would not be possible. Yet it theoretically is. Picture a properly tuned airfoil effectively tapping in to the internal energy of the fluid in which it moves. Moreover, the experienced sailor knows that optimal sail performance utilizes the residual air flow from the foresail to aid in inducing laminar flow around the main sail. That is why the physics is such that the mainsail is a more efficient sail per area, as the foresail aids in the lift of the mainsail by reducing turbulence. Sources: 1) A Manual of Sail Trim
and 2) Sail Power

If you want to race in a straight line in strong wind then yes wider is better. But races for small sailboats are usually conducted on short courses with many turns, and if the boat is too wide it becomes too slow to turn.

This book has a section explaining this: https://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-Sailing-Faster-Techniques/dp/1408124912

When I got into dinghy sailing, I was obsessed with Royces Sailing Illustrated. I don't know how up to date it is, but I loved reading it.

Also, I may be biased, since my godfather wrote it, but Winning in One Designs is a great book, very accessible and super-informative.

Forget forums, get yourself a good book. I highly recommend This Old Boat, by Don Casey

Good luck!

Congrats! I recently read 'A world of my own', a chap sailed from the UK down the atlantic, across the southern indian ocean, south pacific, cape horn, and back up the atlantic to the UK in a 32' ketch single handed in 1968, I recommend you read it if you haven't! Happy sailing. Stay safe.
EDIT: Heres the book on Amazon, theres copies in the UK for 1p.

I've posted this before, but it's worth posting again. I don't race catamarans but the book has helped me quite a lot in terms of learning how to sail.

It's also been said here before, but if you're having trouble getting both bows through the wind while tacking, try sheeting in the jib late (assuming you've got one) - it can help push the bows across onto the new tack.

But most of all, enjoy the boat!

The Sailmaker's Apprentice is good for folks who want to know what goes into a nice suite of sails and is loaded with info on how to do repairs as well as build a set from scratch.

http://www.amazon.com/Sailmakers-Apprentice-Emiliano-Marino/dp/0071376429

I second most of Nigel Calder's books and raise you Don Casey's books on hull and deck repair (glass) and electrics.

the problem is, those huge sailboats(over 30 feet) are crazy goddamn expensive. There is a cutoff around 30 feet where the price just balloons.

Im with the pardeys in that you need a small boat(25-30ft) if you want to go sailing for a long time. Theres less maintenance involved, its way cheaper to get the boat to begin with, and a lot easier to sail. Maybe he can handle a boat of that size, but is he going to want to after 6 months? a year?

i recommend checking out cruising in seraffyn - http://www.amazon.com/Cruising-Seraffyn-25th-Anniversary-Pardey/dp/1929214049/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330580677&sr=8-1

that couple has been sailing long distances for something like 30 years now.

I find there's a lot of information on forums for popular boats regarding their mechanical and construction deficiencies. E.g. Discussion on certain boats getting blisters, or needing bulkhead replacements. However, there's basically no information on design deficiencies, and most of the discussion you do find is pure speculation. The reason for this is because boat design is more of a tradeoff of different qualities. You want to research these qualities as much as possible. For instance: displacement, sail area, keel type, hull construction, cabin layout, cockpit size and layout, water line length, ability for the boat to right itself and how it affects stability, etc. Most of the information on these subjects is available on books and not necessarily easily accessible on the web. Here are some good books:

• http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Sailboat-International-Marine-Library/dp/0071445455
  
• http://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Small-Sailboats-Take-Anywhere/dp/0939837323
  
• http://www.amazon.com/Seaworthy-Offshore-Sailboat-Essential-Features/dp/007137616X/ref=pd_sim_b_1
  
  Now, these books are slanted on offshore sailing which is what I'm interested in. You didn't specify where you'd be sailing or how you'd be using it. My guess is general weekend cruising.
  
  So no, I haven't seen any discussion on the differences between boats like that. You have to make an informed decision on the data available (e.g. of sailboatdata.com, class association sites, owner postings on forums, etc). Best thing to do is ask people who have knowledge once you've narrowed it down. The truth of the matter is, no matter what boat you get you will have to deal with the tradeoffs. Some guy saying that "X" boat is slow or fast is completely subjective and doesn't mean a damn thing to you. You have to figure out what the qualities you want are first and find the boat that best fits those qualities.
  
  Lastly, if this is your first boat please go small and with something that you can easily sell again. Chances are your wants and needs will change, and dumping a whole bunch of money into the wrong boat may be a big mistake. Get something simple that is easy to maintain, so you can learn how to properly maintain a sailboat. The mistakes you will make will not be a big deal on a small boat, but if you buy a 40 ft Catalina a small mistake can balloon very quickly.

one of the best books i've read is called "sail power" by Wallace ross??/

http://www.amazon.com/Sail-Power-Complete-Guide-Handling/dp/0394727150

The latest one i picked up is;
http://www.amazon.com/Keelboat-Sportsboat-Racing-Glyn-Charles/dp/1898660379/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380591287&sr=1-9&keywords=keelboat

possibly with this, and just trying your hand at it a lot.

https://www.amazon.com/Sailmakers-Apprentice-Guide-Self-Reliant-Sailor/dp/0071376429/ref=sr_1_1/146-1267656-9307849?ie=UTF8&qid=1525417267&sr=8-1&keywords=sailmakers+apprentice

Also probably need a real sail sewing machine, not a cheap joeann fabrics type.

I don't know of good resources online but if you can buy a book:

https://www.amazon.com/Winning-One-designs-Dave-Perry/dp/0976226146

I also like this one a lot: https://shop.ussailing.org/understanding-the-racing-rules-through-2020.html

Just saw the last part of this sentence. Crewing for club races? In that case I have to recommend Winning In One Designs by Dave Perry to go along with the Racing Rules of Sailing

Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing is the bible of dinghy sailing.

I also found Helming to Win to be helpful

I really like Sail Power by Wallace Ross. It will teach you almost everything that you can learn about sailing and sailboats while on dry land.

Oh yeah, and if you want a cruising story that's full of the frustrations of boat ownership, then I'd recommend Jack London's The Cruise of the Snark.

Ross, Sail Power

Marchaj, several books, and another

High Performance Sailing by Frank Bethwaite link

Although targeted at racers (specifically dinghy and high-performance racers) there is so much good info about how wind works, how sails work, how to approach waves in different scenarios, why some boats that look fast aren't...

https://www.amazon.com/Voyage-Madmen-Peter-Nichols/dp/0060957034