(Part 2) Best products from r/wma

>This would be fun and I was just looking at prices today at the closest place and they seem higher than HEMA. Apparently I'd have to pay club dues and also the fee for whatever I want to learn. I think it was like $125 a month x 2, $250 is a little bit too much, even $125 is a bit much sadly but I might give it a shot for at least two months.

I didn't mean join a club I meant like buy the gear.

A fencing mask is about 50, a practice fencing blade is about 50 and you have a full set. 200 bucks and some old jackets/ sweatshirts and you can fencing metal on metal with actual hitting with fencing blades.

You want fencing masks for any sort of contact weapon deal anyway.

Then if you get one of these if you pursue HEMA things:

https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shopping/product_info.php/products_id/1254/cPath/111

It basically protects against side blows and slashing. You do want something for the neck as well, but if you get serious a gambeson will take care of that.

>I bet, I watched a video that was posted here of a guy hitting hard out of anger, the camera man seemed a bit concerned but my first thought was "Well, yeah it's a dick thing to do but he's wearing armor, can't hurt that bad". Then I started remembering that yeah, not much give not to mention in kendo we were hitting with bamboo that was made to still have a bit of give to it.

I know what video you are talking about. When you get hurt the most is when you least expect it or don't see it coming, which is after the bell.

Like a blade deflects a ton of the force, your body moving deflects the force as well as natural reaction. Just standing still and taking it is when the most damage is done.

The thing about HEMA also is its not super official. If it was, the it would be more expensive because the gauntlets alone would be crazy for full protection. There is no standard gear and nobody really checks gear either. Your expected to bring your own.

Weird angles, weird attacks, weird wrestling moves a ton of unknowns led to the injuries. But its also why its more martial art than sport. And by weird I mean there is no sort of "unified" rule-set. Its sort of like MMA before it became popular. Hema doesn't have weight classes but your allowed to wrestle! Its pretty fascinating.

And yeah while tourneys use plastic, final uses metal and sparring can as well. That can be the most dangerous aspect. But its the most fun as well. I did a lot of metal sparring and plastic seems dull in comparison and not wholly a lot safer.

>Based on what you've said and what others have said, I think I'll get that Hurstwic video to fix my nerdy historical aspect, it was pretty much between that or a great sword and I think my son and I will have more fun doing that than a big heavy sword for him. Plus he's constantly wanting me to get him a shield anyways.


You can get this:

http://www.coldsteel.com/products/training-knives/trench-hawk-trainer.html

and then this or another one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/2009948-Cold-Steel-Medieval-Buckler/dp/B006YBXYYS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525215336&sr=8-1&keywords=cold+steel+buckler

The kids I have shown the buckler to love its. Its light, durable and a perfect size for them.

>But as to my question, I am still very interested in either saber or rapier and I've just been watching videos on each of them and vs each other trying to figure out which I'd like to pursue. Saber seems to have the edge because not only does it seem fairly common in HEMA, but also fencing has saber. But I am wondering if epee would be similar enough to rapier if I decide to go that route, would epee set me up to better learn rapier? In your opinion anyways?

Eh, it would be better to learn Rapier right out of the gate talking and thinking about it.

The basics of olympic fencing are super simple start to learning how to fencing with thrusting implements. Epee is the purest of the three because you can hit anywhere and there are no "rules" of right away.

You will also learn without the context of history, just the mechanics of it. When to thrust, when to parry, when to reposite and the "menatlity" of actually fencing and perhaps other little tricks.

But Epee is the fencing style where if you hit someone in the toe it counts as a point. There is a lot of sniping in epee and epee fencers build up a lot of bad habits that don't do well in anything else.

Like foil forces you to learn how to parry and keep distance. Saber as well, it teaches cutting.

And mind you fencing is all done on lanes, no circling around. Which is stupid and unrealistic in a certain sense.

So yeah, if you are more into doing this for the history and fun of it, just learn rapier. But if you want to score points and win, learning fencing id say won't hurt. The olympic fencing styles don't have the hubris of much of what WMA and HEMA moves, in a straight line. Its the thing that inspired Bruce Lee in Jeet Kune Do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do#Principles

But, you can pick up a epee blade for cheaper than a rapier, so there is that. Something like a foil or Epee blade you can really go to town with compared to a practice rapier, which hardly gives.

> Honestly, I don't think we will agree on this. But the debate is the fun part and allows us to explore and strengthen our own ideas.

You're probably right, though I'm sure we'd get closer in person. And I agree, the debate is interesting, and that's why I originally asked. I believe I sort of understand the issue, but I definitely want to understand it better. But I'll keep this one short:

1. It's good to remember that very few historical European martial arts have left us any solo forms similar to katas. The bolognese masters and spadone/montante are the only ones I'm familiar with -- that plus a few, often loosely described, cutting drills e.g. in Meyer or some later military saber sources. Pair drills exist in the sources, but the footwork in them is often described in very general terms if at all -- simply because if there's a slightest change in the circumstances, such as exactly how the opponent moves, then so must your movement change.
   
   Where these solo forms exist in the sources, you definitely should study and perform them. Where they don't, I'd be really careful about making up your own and thinking/claiming they represent the art in question.
   
   
2. There seems to be a fair amount of good advice in that "deliberate practice" material, although I'm slightly off-put by his habit of using super-performers, geniuses, genetic freaks, and prodigies as evidence.
   
   If you wish to read more about what modern cognitive science has to say about how a more average person might learn most efficiently, the book Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning by Brown, Roediger, and McDaniel seems like a good quick overview.
   
   For a more in-depth look there's Google Scholar, providing us with gold like the 1992 Schmidt & Bjork article New Conceptualizations of Practice: Common Principles in Three Paradigms Suggest New Concepts for Training,
   which you can find at http://hp-research.com/sites/default/files/publications/Schmidt%20%26%20Bjork%20(PS,%201992)_0.pdf.

You are correct in that all of these things will help you enter and strike.

The manuals are a compendium of techniques, not a guide to "this is exactly what you must do". From the sounds of things, you are wanting more information into how to approach a fight rather than the actual techniques themselves. In that regards, there have been numerous books regarding fencing theory written for modern olympic fencing that would be of great use to you. The weapons are not the same but all preparatory actions translate very well into each other. The only part of the manual that talks about these (to my knowledge) are the naichraissens, the vor/nach plays and vaguely glossed over in the first part on the line, "All Art has Length and Measure".

Recommended reading:

• "The Onion - Vor & Nach flow exercises" by Roger Norling
  
  
• Understanding longsword - K. Ruokonen's blog
  
  
• Understanding Fencing - By Z Czajkowski. This is actually about modern epee fencing and fencing in general but works well as a modern take on fencing theory
  
  
• Epee 2.0 - by Johan Harmenber. Another modern book focusing on how to win. Essentially boils down to "do several things really really well instead of lots of things really well". And some other stuff.
  
  
• MS 3227a - "Hanko Dobringer" - a little more esoteric than the modern ones but at least its period. You may find it useful.
  
  
• The Art of Combat - By Joachim Meyer (trans by J Forgeng). This is out of print until next year but it is the best translation of Joachim Meyer's text available. It covers a wide range of plays intended, I think, for the instruction of fencers. It really is a wonderful resource and well worth getting your hands on.

Like others have said, try to find an instructor. If there's no one nearby you can get to regularly, think about making a trip for some private instruction, a special event, or even work at distance, exchanging videos and having chats and the like. A lot of instructors (including myself) offer this on occasion.

If you can't find an instructor, you 'll have to do your best with online material and books. as BLASPHEMOUS as it sounds, I recommend Fiore, mostly because Fiore has a ton of awesome supplemental material aimed at beginners that you can find online for free. Guy Windsor's Swordsman's Companion is a nice resource (which may be somewhat dated by now, but I'm not sure since I'm not a fiorist), and he also has a number of free videos on his youtube channel, and occasionally offers free introductory courses through his website. I've used some of his conditioning material before, it's fairly thorough. As I wrote this, I also stumbled on this page, which is a nice collection of Fiore-facing resources.

If you're dead set on German longsword, Keith Farrel's German Longsword Study Guide is a really great start, but it's best if used in conjunction to a text, and it's difficult to understand the body mechanics, especially if you've got a background in MOF.

Unfortunately I don't know of too many really comprehensive beginner-facing youtube channels for German sources out there that teach any of this in a way that I think is more beneficial than harmful. There's a translation of Danzig coming out soon, but since it's not out yet I can't really recommend it :/. Again, I think you ought to reach out to a well-known instructor for whatever system you want to study, and see what they recommend, especially if there's no club around.

If you haven't already, check out the HEMA Club Finder, and see if there's someone local. If there is, do whatever they do. Once you get down some basics, you can think about spending some time on your own with whatever source you are interested in. You might find that you change your mind on what interests you, too!

In my humble opinion, a feder followed by a really good pair of gloves. Some may disagree with me prioritizing gloves, but I'd recommend them early because 1) You're going to need time to get used to them, 2) It'll give you plenty of time to break them in, and 3) it'll allow you to more safely train techniques that specifically target the hands.

On a budget, back-of-head protection is as simple as buying a mask cover (like the AF cover @ $42. Personally, I wear a Destroyer Modz mask mod w/ the crybaby for extra throat protection.

Next, buy the jacket, as it will allow you to do some light contact drills. To be honest, mask, gloves and jacket are the big-purchase items. Everything else you can get pretty inexpesive. A lot of us in my club wear these for rigid knee guards: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IO4EZG4/

They're cheap, comfortable, and a great bang-for-your-buck.

Let me be 100% clear -- these recommendations assume that your intention is to start getting into steel sparring, and eventually steel competitions. If your goal is just to practice some set plays in a purely cooperative setting, that's a different story, and you're probably fine with the gear you have.

What are your specific training goals? Any timelines for events/tourneys that you want to participate at or milestones you want to reach?

As a rough rule of thumb - the farther back in time you go, the broader the sword blade is relative to its length, the less complex hand protection there will be around the hilt, and the more likely it is to be a military weapon instead of a civilian one. This is not universal, but it's generally safe to assume true for western civilizations. The two polar ends of this are the Roman short sword (100BC-ish), which was extremely wide relative to being very short with zero hand protection, and the rapier - extremely long and thin with complex hand-encasing baskets (1650AD-ish). There will be people popping up in reply pointing out the numerous exceptions to this, so I'll preemptively agree it's at best a rough guideline with frequent variation.

Yes, longswords and sword/shields did co-exist in time, though the stereotypical modern image of a "Knight" comes more from a time period (pre-1300s-ish) that slightly predates the "golden age" of the longsword (1500-ish).

In terms of surviving combat manuals outlining functional martial systems, the I.33 is the go-to example of sword and buckler being used, and was from the area that longsword was first starting to gain ground in terms of popularity.

If you want the "standard" manual for the modern image of a knight, though, that would be The Book of the Order of Chivalry

Looks like there are clubs within driving distance to you. I'm not familiar enough with that area to really recommend one over another, but take a look at these two links and look for California.
Link One
Link Two

For your budget, I've seen the Samick Sage recommended often as a good starter bow
Samick Sage

Also within your budget, I personally have a Hungarian style horsebow from Longbowmaker that I greatly enjoy, but it can be a little bit more difficult to operate.
Hungarian

I wouldn't go over a 25-30 lb draw until you get good habits ingrained and strength built up.

For the style you want, you probably want a thumbring. They can take some getting used to. Get arrows with fletches, not vanes. Wrist/arm guards are highly useful.

Good luck!

Here's a big list of stuff I'd recommend on top of the fantastic list /u/metagrim gave. I've been watching your videos for awhile:

Try posting your videos to the HEMA Alliance (and other HEMA) page as much as possible without being annoying (it's a fine line).

Interactivity is key; comment on other HEMA pages and youtube channels, not self promoting, just comment a lot.

post videos often, once a week is a bare minimum, at least two is optimal. It'll keep you in peoples minds if they regularly see you in their feed, also it makes your channel look more full. Post interesting tidbits, history facts relevant to HEMA. You can expand your content without loosing sight of what your channel is about, most popular hema channels are well rounded.

also production quality is really important, I'd recommend having a consistent place and angle you film from, camera facing straight at you from a couple of feet away (there's a lot of wiggle room, but just not too close or too far) and make sure to avoid this angle

I'd also seriously recommend a microphone! even something like this is fine

Also remember it can just take a long while for this to really happen, I'm sure you know that, but still


You're channel has a lot of potential and I really want to see you succeed. Whenever you're unsure remember you've got me as your number one fan rooting for you!

Source: I used to manage social media pages for a lot of local bands, also my mom used to be one of the top 50 most subscribed youtubers and I learned a lot from that.

> though I'm sure we'd get closer in person.

I am sure of this as well.

> The bolognese masters and spadone/montante are the only ones I'm familiar with

There are a couple of solo drills translated and performed by Keith Farrell, He has one video going into pretty good detail as to how it's performed. The second video on the other hand is just him and Jake Norwood working out how to perform the drill with less explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoK8nvv0nZo
Keith Farrell and Jake Norwood

That being said, IF you believe that adding "frog DNA" to your HEMA is okay, there are plenty of other arts to take forms/katas from. But that is a whole other subject.

> the book Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning by Brown, Roediger, and McDaniel

Thanks for the book suggestion! I'll pick it up soon (I have about 8 books I need to read before February, so it will be a while before I pick it up). I'm been suggesting The Little Book of Talent: 52 Tips for Improving Your Skills and The Art of Learning: An Inner Journey to Optimal Performance

There are some great resources, like the ghfs text that are targeted towards HEMA that will help. "Fencing and the Master" ( http://www.amazon.com/Fencing-Master-Laszlo-Szabo/dp/0965946800 ) and "Understanding Fencing" (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Fencing-Zbigniew-Czajkowski/dp/0965946886) are great books about teaching modern fencing which are very useful. They have a lot of great stuff about running group classes, and also things to look for when working with someone individually.

With two years of training in longsword, you have the technical knowledge, but what you'll need for a study group is a plan to transmit that knowledge to student. I'd suggest visiting other groups - modern fencing clubs, kendo, akido, judo, etc... and observing how they are structured and taught. If you find something that you like, keep going, but also see if the instructor would be willing to mentor you while you run your own study group.

I think this book might be of use to you. It can answer a lot of the basic German questions in a concise and useful manner: https://www.amazon.com/German-Longsword-Study-Guide-Farrell/dp/099267350X

Another good option is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-German-Longsword-Christian-Tobler/dp/1937439232/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1937439232&pd_rd_r=H7DC6Z3YA6PFJ4ZVN4YT&pd_rd_w=VbAS2&pd_rd_wg=PNWII&psc=1&refRID=H7DC6Z3YA6PFJ4ZVN4YT

I say this as basically it seems that you are looking for a starting point into German longsword. The question you ask is not quite so simple as listing off techniques. This is one of the main parts of fencing with the longsword and honestly can take up chapters to talk about properly. The above books have most of the options listed, as well as ideas on how to implement them. They should be able to help you.

Silver's Paradoxes of Defence and Bref Instructions. Plenty of versions online, but the most modern transcription from Silver's handwritten manuscript is the book Master of Defence https://www.amazon.com/Master-Defence-Works-George-Silver/dp/1581607237/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EZ12ZKKE4MNW2QZESYQN and Stephen Hand's English Swordsmanship https://www.amazon.com/English-Swordsmanship-Fight-George-Silver/dp/1891448277 is a superb how-to manual.

I highly recommend Coblentz as the best intro for Italian rapier:
https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Italian-Rapier-David-Coblentz/dp/0985444134/

High intensity, lots of "aliveness" in the drills.

At least a couple of possible outcomes for each action so that it doesn't turn into "I do this, you do that, I do this".

Working on setups instead of assuming ideal conditions so that it's possible to understand what leads to successful outcomes for given techniques in certain situations.

Basically, read Understanding Fencing and steal as much as possible.

I use Meister MMA Glove Deodorizers. I put them in my SPES heavies after every practice. It really helps to cut down on the build-up of smelly bacteria. I originally used them with my boxing gloves and they work great for that too. It's a scented desiccant that pulls moisture out of the glove when you aren't' using them. they also keep your gloves together in your bag.

https://www.amazon.com/Meister-Glove-Deodorizers-Boxing-Sports/dp/B0140JKN2G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1550037344&sr=8-3&keywords=meister+mma+glove+deodorizers

Yeah, I'm looking for it to be a gateway to HEMA for my kids and their friends.

​

Do you have any links to the Russian karate helmet? I've fround the Star brand for the chest protector, but the closest helmet I can find is something like this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3D45VA/ - which is probably sufficient.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013NGQ8I

BMX MTB knee and shin guards. The mobility in these is great.

Tim Rivera's translation of Godinho's Vulgar Drestreza is a good hardcopy source, or you can go to his site at https://spanishsword.org/ and get access to most of his body of work from right there. Puck and Mary Curtis also have some translations hosted for free. Wiktenauer has some sources available as well.

Here is a very reasonably priced book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1583948686/

And here is a lengthy online article about the history of cane defense, with an overview of, and links to, period sources:

https://martialartsnewyork.org/2016/08/16/a-history-of-cane-self-defense-in-america-1798-1930/

I hope this helps!

In my club, a lot of us wear motocross shin guards like these. You get knee protection too and they seem to do the trick well.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013NGQ8I?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf

Rawlings - https://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-Armoury-Synthetic-Longsword/dp/B007KKDGEK

I have both BlackFencers and Rawlings, and have become a convert to the Rawlings side.

The Rawlings being lighter, hits lighter, meaning I can get away without a jacket more often, particularly for pair drills. Which became a surprisingly big advantage during the hot summer. Plus lighter hits are very noticeable when you're the one getting hit.

> Out of interest, what source of Silver are you reading

http://www.amazon.com/English-Swordsmanship-Fight-George-Silver/dp/1891448277

GRAPPLING and the SWORD. During the 19th century, Colonel Thomas Monstery was known to use seizures and disarms in both actual duels and contests with the sword. His rival, Regis Senac, once complained that during a private bout with Monstery in the 1870s, the latter had resorted to seizures and disarms when they came into close distance. On a similar note, an account of Monstery's duel with the Mexican General Bragamonte describes such techniques:

"At length Bragamonte tried his last secret trick, which would have puzzled any merely school fencer. Monstery made a light cut at his arm, outside, and Bragamonte threw up his own sword to bind his enemy’s blade there, quick as a flash threw forward his left foot and clutched for Monstery’s sword-wrist with his left hand. It was the end of the duel. Quicker than even the Spaniard, the American threw forward his own left foot, drawing back his sword out of danger, and in an instant had reversed the trick. Bragamonte’s sword-wrist was in his grasp, and he plunged his own blade deep into the Spaniard’s vitals, so that the point came out behind Bragamonte’s back, and the hilt struck his breast."

At another time, during a fencing bout with Monstery at the latter's academy, student Francis Wilson recounted how he momentarily caught the Colonel off guard, and succeeded in disarming him.

Wilson described what happened next:

"When I tried to follow up the advantage, he deftly disarmed me with his bare hand and turned the point of my sword against me."

• Self Defense for Gentlemen and Ladies

Fighting with the German longsword by Christian Tobler

https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-German-Longsword-Christian-Tobler/dp/1937439232

There are a bunch of books published by Chivalry Bookshelf like the one above.

Some can be found at abe books as well as the usual amazon search.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bsi=0&ds=20&kn=chivalry%20bookshelf&sortby=17&prevpage=2

I'll reiterate what others have said about Clements. He is an important figure in the history of modern swordfighting but he also wasn't a diligent student of the arts when he was putting out books and videos back then. A lot has been learnt since then.

It's also available from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Iberian-Swordplay-Domingo-Godinhos-Fencing/dp/193743933X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503090174&sr=8-1&keywords=Iberian+swordplay

Just wanted to add that there's a Godinho translation in print now. It came out somewhat recently.

https://www.amazon.com/Iberian-Swordplay-Domingo-Godinhos-Fencing/dp/193743933X

edit: Added this link because it's expensive on amazon for some reason http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/iberianswordplaydomingoluisgodinhosartoffencing1599.aspx

I vaguely recall references to an unusual smallsword manual in connection with the Colonial Williamsburg historical society.

Seconding the recommendation of Col. Monstery's self defense manual, which has recently been republished - http://www.amazon.com/Self-Defense-Gentlemen-Ladies-Nineteenth-Century-Quarterstaff/dp/1583948686.

First of all, which book exactly do you mean? Guy Windsor has two books the titles of which include "Medieval Longsword":

1. The Swordman's Companion: Medieval Longsword
   https://www.amazon.com/Swordsmans-Companion-Guy-Windsor/dp/9526793404
   
   
2. Mastering the Art of Arms volume 2: The Medieval Longsword
   https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-Arms-Vol-Longsword/dp/9526819322
   
   It just so happens that both books describe several different kinds of footwork and different footwork drills on their pages 64-65 -- or at least they do in the editions I have. So you're going to have to be far more specific.

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer followed by http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Nuremberg_Hausbuch_(MS_3227a) http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Peter_von_Danzig_zum_Ingolstadt and http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pseudo-Peter_von_Danzig

In terms of actual paper books? http://www.academyofhistoricalarts.co.uk/publishing/german-longsword-study-guide.php

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Martial_Arts_of_Renaissance_Europe.html?id=keDBwirOTQwC

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Fencing-Zbigniew-Czajkowski/dp/0965946886