Best products from r/zen

I would like eventually to be able to handle the non-secular Buddhism, part of the mess I got myself into was convincing myself there is no god. I like that Buddha didn't take a stance on it.

No. I saw your post; I saw your post history; I'm having a pretty good time with my understanding of Zen and Zen practice, but I'm only a month or so in. I was hoping for someone who appears to me to be critical of Zen, you could offer an alternative based on your understanding. I know I could disembowel a Buddhism tradition to create my own, but I felt ... you would be a good person to ask.

I've been to the local zendo, and the lay practitioner told my wife that the sutras they chant "they don't believe in the words." I mean, if you don't believe in the words, why bother saying them?

It seems hard to meet with the teacher, and ... I don't understand why you would want to. My understanding of Zen is everything comes from zazen, which seems to me to be the same kind of enlightenment the Buddha received. If that's true, what are the teachers for? If the teacher is important, how often should you talk to them to help your practice? The zendo near me, it looks like you need to spend 3 months of practice before formally meeting with the teacher. Is that reasonable?

Zen is very mapless. Meditate and you will arrive eventually. Do this one thing with a singular focus. Trust it.


Contrast that to .... Daniel Ingram (yes, I understand most everyone fucking hates this guy), ... who literally has a map of the terrain.

I have no interest in group study, other then maybe a circle of friends, of which, I'm the focal point.

I've never in my life learned well from other people talking to me, I'm more of a read the book, test it out, kind of person. I'm reading this currently

I like doing zazen, I'm starting to understand why it would be advantageous to focus single minded on breath and posture, asymmetry is nice, not being worried about perfection is nice, and being continuously in the now is nice.

Do you think I can get the above with Zen?

This is the last place you'll find any sort of helpful information on zen. Ewk and a few other ideologs have pretty much hijacked the forum. /r/zendo is good, but its not nearly as active. You're not wrong for assuming zen can be peaceful and elegant, its what you want it to be. A lot of what you see here is westerners confusing zen with nihilism. If I were to mention the Two Truths Doctrine here, many wouldn't really know what I was talking about. Things like this getting over looked is why you seen so much arguing here. Its mostly due to lack of understanding of buddhist doctrine by westerners that are new to the religion.

With that said, Suzuki Roshi's Zen Mind Beginner's Mind was a great starting point for myself. If you want tot just download it for free, Heres a link to the pdf. Also this website gives rough details into soto zen practice and forms. http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp
Last book, this isn't zen, but Zen is considered Mahayana Buddhism and shares many of the same teaching as Tibetan Buddhsim. The Dalai Lama give a wonder discourse of some of the core beliefs of Mahayana Buddhism. Essential Teachings Dalai Lama

I started around when I was your age, and that was along time ago :) Hope you find what you are looking for. Good luck!

disclaimer: ewk please don't reply to my comment. thank you.

One of the first things I was going to mention was Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. It's a standard recommendation, as you know. Almost everyone practicing in contemporary Zen traditions has read this book, so it gives you a point of reference when relating to others, which is valuable in itself.

Beyond that, I would suggest giving the Sixth Patriarch's Platform Sutra a read. I'm sure you've heard of it, but it's basically the (very entertaining) story of how this guy becomes enlightened, and then a record of his activities and teachings. Concepts from the wider Buddhist tradition are presented in a strictly Zen context, which helps you understand the relationship between the two and "Zen's special message". Needless to say, it's a classic if anything is, sort of like Beethoven's Fifth or something (i.e. anyone into symphonies will have heard this by default). You can find it online, but I must say, I think real books are way more fun!

My third recommendation will be one from a more personal angle, that is to say, a book most people haven't read, by an author most people have never heard of. The book is Diamond Sutra Explained by the contemporary Zen master Nan Huaijin. The Diamond Sutra is important within the Zen tradition (the Sixth Patriarch mentioned above was awakened by hearing a line from it), and the discourse given by Master Nan is the best I've ever read. I'm trying to find the words to praise the material here, but it keeps coming off sounding absurdly effusive... so perhaps just read the reviews to get an idea. If you happen to try this one by my recommendation, I'd say you've hit gold.

Best wishes!

I wouldn't say those in recent times who study the Way do not try hard, but often they just memorize Zen stories and try to pass judgment on the ancient and modern Zen masters, picking and choosing among words and phrases, creating complicated rationalizations and learning stale slogans. When will they every be done with this? If you study Zen like this, all you will get is a collection of worn-out antiques and curios.

When you "seek the source and investigate the fundamental" in this fashion, after all you are just climbing up the pole of your own intellect and imagination. If you don't encounter an adept, if you don't have indomitable will yourself, if you have never stepped back into yourself and worked on your spirit, if you have not cast off all your former and subsequent knowledge and views of surpassing wonder, if you have not directly gotten free of all this and comprehended the causal conditions of the fundamental great matter-then that is why you are still only halfway there and are falling behind and cannot distinguish or understand clearly. If you just go on like this, then even if you struggle diligently all your life, you still won't see the fundamental source even in a dream.

This is why the man of old said: "Enlightenment is apart from verbal explanations-there has never been any attainer."

Deshan said: "Our school has no verbal expressions and not a single thing or teaching to give people."

Zhaozhou said: "I don't like to hear the word buddha."

Look at how, in verbally disavowing verbal explanations, they had already scattered dirt and messed people up. If you go on looking for mysteries and marvels in the Zen masters' blows and shouts and facial gestures and glaring looks and physical movements, you will fall even further into the wild foxes' den.

All that is important in this school is that enlightenment be clear and thorough, like the silver mountain and the iron wall, towering up solitary and steep, many miles high. Since this realization is as sudden as sparks and lightening, whether or not you try to figure it out, you immediately fall nto a pit. That is why since time immemorial the adepts have guarded this one revelation, and all arrived together at the same realization.

Here there is nowhere for you to take hold. Once you can clear up your mind and you are able to abandon all entanglements, and you are cultivating practice relying on an enlightened spiritual friend, it would be really too bad if you weren't patient enough to get to the level where the countless difficulties cannot get near you, and to lay down your body and your mind there and investigate till you penetrate through all the way.

Over thousands of lifetimes and hundreds of aeons up until now, has there ever been any discontinuity in the fundamental reality or not? Since there has been no discontinuity, what birth and death and going and coming is there for you to be in doubt about? Obviously there things belong to the province of causal conditions and have absolutely no connection to the fundamental matter.

My teacher Wuzu often said, "I have been here for five decades, and I have seen thousands and thousands of Zen followers come up to the corner of my meditation seat. They were all just seeking to become buddhas and to expound Buddhism. I have never seen a single genuine wearer of the patched robe."

How true this is! As we observe the present time, even those who expound Buddhism are hard to find, much less any genuine people. The age is in decline and the sages are further and further distant. In the whole great land of China, the lineage of Buddha is dying out right before our very eyes, We may find one person of half a person who is putting the Dharma into practice, but we would not dare to expect them to be like the great exemplars of enlightenment, the "dragons and elephants" of yore.

Nevertheless, if you simply know the procedures and aims of practical application of the Dharma and carry on correctly from beginning to end, you are already producing a lotus from within the fire.

You must put aside all the conditioning that entangles you. Then you will be able to perceive the inner content of the great enlightenment that has comedown since ancient times. Be at rest wherever you are, and carry on the secret, closely continuous, intimate-level practice. The devas will have no road to strew flowers on, and demons and outsiders will not be able to find your tracks. This is what it means to truly leave home and thoroughly understand oneself.

If, after you have reached this level, circumstances arise as the result of merit that lead you to come forth and extend a hand to communicate enlightenment to others, this would not be inappropriate. As Buddha said, "Just acquiesce in the truth, you surely won't be deceived." But even for me to speak this way is another case of a man from bandit-land seeing off a thief.

Source

Links:

Zen Letters 1

Zen Letters 2

Zen Letters 3

Zen Letters 4

Zen Letters 5

Zen Letters 6

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Zen Letters 24

Zen Letters 46

>Fayan pointed to a chair and said, “If you know the chair, there’s plenty of room.” ​
Yunmen said, “If you know the chair, you’re as far off as sky from earth.” ​
Tianyi said, “If you know the chair, it’s made of maple and cedar wood.”
Dahui remarked, “If you know the chair, you’d better shave your head and wash your feet. Even so, there are many people who still misunderstand.”

Note: The chair is the seat of consciousness, in it there is nothing, plenty of room;
in it you are atop a 1000 foot pole, as far as heaven is from earth;
it is in you, the various elements, maple and cedar wood;
if you know it you'd shave your head and wash your feet like a monk, wearing the patched robe, who could understand?

Relevant:

>Look: when Zhaozhou asked, "How is it when a man who has died the great death returns to life?"
Touzi Datong immediately said, "He must not go by night: he must get there in daylight."
Direct as sparks struck from stone, like the brilliance of a lightning flash. Only a transcendental man like him could do this.
A man who has died the great death has no Buddhist doc­trines and theories, no mysteries and marvels, no gain and loss, no right and wrong, no long and short. When he gets here, he just lets it rest this way.

-Blue Cliff Record

>Once you have the intent to investigate this Path to the end, you must settle your resolve and vow to the end of your days not to retreat or fall back so long as you have not yet reached the Great Rest, the Great Surcease, the Great Liberation. There's not much to the Buddha Dharma, but it's always been hard to find (capable) people. The concerns of worldly passions are like the links of a chain, joining together without a break. Those whose resolve is weak and inferior time and time again willingly become involved with then: unknowing and unawares they are dragged along by them. Only if the person truly possesses the faculty of wisdom and will power will he consent to step back and reflect.

And

>Once you have achieved peaceful stillness of body and mind, you must make earnest effort. Do not immediately settle down in peaceful stillness- in the Teachings this is called "The Deep Pit of Liberation," much to be feared. You must make yourself turn freely, like a gourd floating on the water, independent and free, not subject to restraints, entering purity and impurity without being obstructed or sinking down. Only then do you have a little familiarity with the school of the patchrobed monks. If you manage to cradle the uncrying child in your arms, what's the use?

-Swampland Flowers

Link to Dahui Shobogenzo

I'm sorry if I sound rude. But in my opinion, Nagarjuna is probably too heavy for you at present.

 

If you find the Diamond sutra enjoyable (at least, not so bad), then You can try 'The Heart Sutra' (Red Pine translation) next after you finish the Diamond sutra. As the Wikipedia entry of it says, The Heart Sutra belongs to the Perfection of Wisdom (Prajnaparamita) category of Mahayana Buddhism and it is the most representative sutra of that sort in the sense that the sutra summarizes all the basics and principal Ideas of the Perfection of Wisdom in an extremely condensed way.

 

And Nagarjuna's work is based on the ideas expressed in the Perfection of Wisdom category sutras (So if you know nothing of the latter, the former is very hard and inaccessible. Frankly speaking, Nagarjuna's work is not so accessible even for those who are relatively well versed with Prajnaparamita category Sutras of Mahayana Buddhism)

 

Lastly, the Diamond sutra is yet another Sutra belonging to the Perfection of Wisdom (Prajnaparamita) category of Mahayana Buddhism, and it is regarded as the most fundamental sutra in Korean Zen Buddhism, along with the platform sutra of the 6p.

 

Instant Zen by Foyan and translated by Thomas Cleary is really good. The introduction by the translator is a bit wonky but the body of the book is great.

If you're more Shikantanza inclined Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and Not Always So are pretty good. They're both collections of dharma talks by Shunryu Suzuki.

I personally have a great affection for the book Zen Question it has beautiful illustrations and is in a very simple Q & A format.

Sure, no prob!

I don't know if it helps, but zazen has been described as goalless meditation. Not reaching for any special state, just sitting. Maybe you already know that, and again I don't know how it compares to vipassana. :)

Shobogenzo is cool. The most popular version nowadays is the Kaz translation. At least in the San Francisco area. Brad Warner prefers his teacher's version, says the translation is more accurate. I've only read bits and pieces of both, but I think the Kaz version is easier to read. Feels more poetic I guess. Though only downside I've noticed is the chapter titles are in English, while most people refer to their Japanese titles (Uji vs Being Time, etc.).

Dogen also wrote Fukanzazengi which instructs how to practice zazen. It's pretty cool, and I remember a monk at SFZC reading parts of it when I took the intro class. Actually, I should really read it again.

This stuff should really be stickied, but that's a whole other can of worms, haha. Maybe r/zenbuddhism could put something together.

I usually recommend Zen Essence as a primer: very easy to read quotes from 18 Chan masters, they each get a dozen or so, so they all get to talk to each other without any one particular master or style dominating the conversation. Because of the format it also lets you see through the translator because each master has a different style (thus making the translator's colorations and mudding easier to notice).

Then of course Mumonkan, Faith in Mind, and then the records of whomever you're interested in based on either mumonkan or Zen Essence. The Cleary translation has multiple poems about each case from different Masters.

I also think it's crucial to read the treatment of Baizhang's fox in the Book Of Serenity, and not just Mumonkan.

The Blue Cliff Record is in my mind the ultimate mountain peak, and the BoS is the perfect compliment to it. But to start, ZE plus Mumonkan, then spiraling into the records of whom you're interested in makes a very strong foundation.

Hey

Your post was likely caught in the sub's spam filter, but I invite you to check out a list that one of our sub's users, /u/ewk, has compiled of many Zen Texts:

https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted

​

As a personal recommendation (though it's not how I started), I'd recommend beginning with The Sayings of Joshu (Green translation):

https://www.amazon.com/Recorded-Sayings-Zen-Master-Joshu/dp/157062870X

​

It makes a nice "Bathroom reader" and is useful for getting you primed for "Wait wtf how does that response make sense?" because, buckle up, that's the game, my friend!

​

Since you mention Dharma Talks, I think you'll probably like Bankei:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802131840/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i1

​

However, definitely check out the Mumonkan. It's a primary source (rather than secondary source "Sayings Texts") with commentary on various "Cases" by an actual Zen Master himself: Mumon. It's claimed by Mumon himself to be intended for novices.

​

Have fun!

I understand. I'm sure there are a lot of us "Zen Practitioners" in this group, but maybe they've all left now. I only respond when something pops up on my front page.

Practice, in Zen, is sitting. Sitting Meditation. There is no real goal for the practice, not even the goal of "getting better at sitting." Good reading is anything that makes you want to sit. Good Teachers are those that instruct you in sitting and constantly point you back to it.

I could go on forever, but I suggest you read a practice oriented book. Opening The Hand of Thought by Kosho Ushiyama is my current favorite.

Later, you need to drop by somewhere to get instruction. Don't know where you live though. I'm lucky to have always lived on the West Coast within 50 miles of a Temple or Monastery.

Unlocking the Zen Koan: A New Translation of the Zen Classic Wumenguam has been helpful. Also, reading Red Pine's translations and commentary on the The Platform Sutra: The Zen Teaching of Hui-neng, Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra. Although many people speak of the influence of the Lankavatara on Zen, I find it very difficult to read, even Red Pine's fairly approachable translation. But, the idea of "no views" and "no perceptions" was helpful, and "to speak of [this] to to speak of not [this]". Those themes come up often in koans. And studying Lao Tsu helps. Despite what the "not zen" crowd says, a background in Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism, and some historical background really does help a lot. Currently reading Ordinary Mind as the Way: The Hongzhou School and the Growth of Chan Buddhism and The Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism in Eighth- through Tenth-Century China to get some background on Mazu's lineage. Like many westerners, I used to think koans were just about derailing rational thought. While that is useful, now I also see some patterns, a certain amount of "sense", and more experiences of "of course". Easier koans like, it is your mind that moves help with the more difficult ones. Another helpful one is What are you doing? What are you saying?.

The Tao Te Ching is also neat (if not strictly Zen) – the Taoist influence on Zen is pretty strong. For the poetry of it, I’m really fond of the translation by Jane English and Gia-Fu Feng, but in terms of a helpful explanation of the text, I really like Wai-tao’s translation included in Dwight Goddard’s compilation A Buddhist Bible. A Buddhist Bible is also an amazing compilation that I love (my copy’s gotten pretty beat up over the less-than-a-year that I’ve had it), but I’m not sure how helpful it is specifically in terms of understanding Zen.

(If you want to read really difficult but very integral Zen text, I’ve also started reading the Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross translation of Master Dogen’s Treasury of the Right Dharma Eye.)

LINJI RULES! CAODONG DROOLS!

Lump of red flesh translates 赤肉團上, which refers to either the physical heart or the physical body. The expression undoubtedly derives from the following passage in the Chanyuan zhuquanji duxu 禪源諸詮集都序 (Preface to the Anthology of essential writings on the origins of Chan), a work by the Chan and Huayan master Guifeng Zongmi:

>Regarding the word 心, in short there are four kinds. The Sanskrit word for each is diff erent and the translation of each is also diff erent. First, 紇利陀那 [the Chinese transliteration of Skr., “hṛdāya”], which is called “the fl esh-lump heart” 肉團心. Th is is the heart which is one of the fi ve organs within the body.

True man without rank translates 無 位眞人, a term coined by Linji that is one of the key expressions in his presentation of Chan. “True man” 眞人 was originally a term for the ideal, perfected adept of Taoism. Th e best-known, and perhaps earliest, appearance of the term is in the “Dazongshi” 大宗師 chapter of the Zhuangzi 莊子, where the characteristics of the classic Taoist “true man” are described in detail.

In Buddhist works from the Later Han on, the term was used to designate fully enlightened disciples of the Buddha, i.e., completed arhats. Later, “true man” 眞人 was also applied to bodhisattvas.

Face is an abbreviated form of the text’s “face-gate” 面門, an exclusively Buddhist term that originally meant “mouth.” Later the term acquired the more general meaning of “face,” with particular reference to the sense organs, a meaning that it seems to have here.

It is possible, however, that in Linji’s time the word was used for the face itself, since we find the master saying later in the text, “Don’t have the seal of sanction stamped haphazardly upon your face 面門 by any old teacher from anywhere” (see page 194).

The source of the specific phrase in our text is a passage from the long poem Xinwang ming 心王銘 (Verses on the Mind King), attributed to Fu Dashi.

The poem, having referred to the Mind King, who, for all his importance, is not evident to the senses, goes on to say:

>The salt put in water / The glue put in paint—
Certainly these are present / But we cannot see their form.
The Mind King is also thus / Abiding within the body,
Going in and out the [gate of the] face / In response to things, according to their feelings.
Freely and without hindrance / All his undertakings are accomplished

In the original translation Sasaki renders the Chinese, 乾屎橛, as “shit-wiping stick,” saying that the term literally means a “cleaning-off -dung-stick,” a smooth stick of bamboo used in place of toilet paper, with 乾 being the verb “to clean.”

However, Sasaki’s chief researcher for Tang-dynasty slang, Iriya Yoshitaka, subsequently came to believe that the correct interpretation is “stick-shaped piece of dung” (Iriya 1989, 21).

A similar usage is found in the Dahui Pujue Chanshi yulu 大慧普覺禪師語 錄 (Record of Chan Master Dahui Pujue), where the two characters 屎麼 form a noun-compound:

>“I say to [such stupid monks], ‘You’re biting on the dung-sticks of others. You’re not even good dogs!’” (t 47: 872a).

HAHA CAODONG IS DOGS!

The yk has, “[A monk asked,] ‘What is Śākya’s body?’ The master (Yunmen) said, ‘A dung-wiper!’” (t 47: 550b). In the zj 19 the passage parallel to that in the ll reads, “What kind of filthy thing is he?” 是什麼不淨之物.

Sasaki’s other collaborator, Yanagida Seizan, interprets the term to mean “useless dung stick,” explaining that 乾 does not have its usual meaning of “dry,” but is synonymous with the homophonous 閑, “useless” (Yanagida 1977, 52). Regardless of the details of the interpretation, the intention is obviously the same.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Record-Nanzan-Library-Religion-Culture/dp/0824833198

Also, they are without produced nature
亦無生性. See the Northern Nirvana
Sutra:


The impure dharmas, even before they
come into being, already have birth-nature
生性; hence it is through birth that they
can come into being. Th e pure dharmas are
originally without birth-nature 無生性; for
this reason their coming into being cannot
be through birth. Like fi re, which has an
original [burning-]nature and which, on
chancing to meet a cause, bursts into fl ame;
like the eye, which has a seeing nature and
because of color, light, and mind, therefore
sees; so too are sentient beings. Because
they originally possess [birth-]nature, on
chancing to meet the causal conditions
and come in contact with karma, they are
conceived when their fathers and mothers
are in harmonious union. (t 12: 490c)
For these terms as used in the Weishi 唯
識 (Consciousness-Only) school, see the
entry 三無性 in Mochizuki Bukkyō daijiten
2:1686c–1687a.


They are just empty names, and these
names are also empty. See Vimalakīrti’s
reply to Mañjuśrī’s questions regarding
his illness:

When [the Bodhisattva] attains to this
sameness, there is no other illness; there
is only the illness of emptiness, and the
illness of emptiness is also empty.” (t 14:
545a)

Th e interpretation of these lines is based
upon the Zhu Weimojie jing 注維摩詰
經, the commentary on the Vimalakīrti
Sutra said to have been compiled by Seng-
zhao from notes on Kumārajīva’s lectures
given during the translation of the sutra,
plus the comments of Sengzhao and sev-
eral other disciples (t 38: 377a). Just as
Linji in the previous section character-
ized the dharmakāya, saṃbhogakāya, and
nirmāṇakāya as “dependent transforma-
tions” (see pages 162 and 209, above), so
here he uses the same term to character-
ize the states of nirvana, bodhi, etc.—all
generally considered to be absolute or
transcendental—as relative or dependent
states.


The objective surroundings and the
subjective mind translates 境智, a term
explained at length by the Tiantai mas-
ter Zhiyi in his Si nianchu 四念處 (Four
foundations of mindfulness) (t 46: 575a).
It was apparently familiar to the compil-
ers of the Dunhuang Platform Sutra of
the Sixth Patriarch, where, in section 17,
we fi nd:

No-thought 無念 means not to be defi led
by external objects. It is to free thought
from external objects and not to arouse
thoughts about dharmas. But do not stop
thinking about things, nor eliminate all
thoughts. [If you do so] as soon as a single
thought stops you will be reborn in other
realms. Take heed of this! Do not cease
objective things nor subjective mind (境
智). (See Yampolsky 1967, 51.)


Th e term may have been introduced into
the Chan school by Yongjia Xuanjue, who
was a student of Tiantai before studying
under the Sixth Patriarch, since we find
the following in the Chanzong Yongjia ji
禪宗永嘉集 (Anthology of Yongjia of the
Chan School):

He who aspires to seek the great Way
must fi rst of all make pure the three acts
[of body, word, and thought] through
pure practice. Th en, in the four forms of
demeanor—sitting, standing, walking, and
lying—he will enter the Way by degrees.
When he has reached the state where the
objects of the six roots have been thor-
oughly penetrated while conforming with
conditions, and the objective world and
the subjective mind 境智 both have been
stilled, he will mysteriously meet with the
marvelous principle. (t 48: 388b)

Another example of its usage in Chan is
in zj 18. Guishan Lingyou asks his disciple
Yangshan Huiji if he can judge the teach-
ers and disciples who come to see him.


“Th ere are students coming from every-
where. When they ask you about Caoxi’s
(the Sixth Patriarch’s) cardinal principle,
how do you answer them?” [Yangshan]
said, “[I ask,] ‘Virtuous one, where have
you come from recently?’ The student
may answer, ‘Recently I have come from
visiting old worthies everywhere.’ I shall
thereupon bring forward an objective
circumstance and ask, ‘Do the old wor-
thies everywhere speak about this or not?’
Another time I bring out an objective cir-
cumstance and say, ‘Putting aside this for
the time being, tell me what is the cardinal
principle of the old worthies everywhere?’
Th e above two are cases of objective cir-
cumstance and subjective mind 境智.”

Waste paper to wipe off privy filth.
A similarly iconoclastic statement by
Linji’s contemporary Deshan Xuanjian is
recorded in zh 20: “Th e twelve divisions
of the teachings are the census-records
of demons and spirits, paper [fi t only] for
cleaning running sores” (x 79: 173a). For a
translation of the entire passage, see page
169, above.


But you, weren’t you born of a mother?
This rather cryptic remark undoubtedly
refers to the “original nature” or “original
face” with which everyone is born. See
the following lines in Nanyue Mingzan’s
poem Ledao ge 樂道歌 (Song of enjoying
the Way):

Don’t blindly seek the true buddha / Th e
true buddha cannot be seen.
Th e wondrous nature and the marvelous
mind / How could they ever have been
tempered and refi ned!
My mind is the nothing-to-do mind / My
face, the face born of my mother.
Th ough the kalpa-stone may be worn
away / Th is is changeless forever.
(t 51: 461b)

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Record-Nanzan-Library-Religion-Culture/dp/0824833198

Sorry for the formatting im on mobile.

> I don't think the zen characters expressed any metaphysical views, or conceptual explanations in their teachings. Logic, yes, to expose hypocrisy but not to try to support or clarify Mazu’s position.
> Mazu points. What is pointed at (the moon) is inherently a mystery. Zen is experienced non verbally, non conceptually.
> Zongmi is building conceptual models, truths, a philosophical and metaphysical synthesis, verbal descriptions of reality. This is not what Mazu, Dongshan, or their followers were doing.

So Zongmi was really more of an academic himself, than a zen student.
Academia is not about emulating zen masters (or even students), but about gathering accurate information regarding their history and concepts.
Like academics in other fields, e.g. biology, are not trying to emulate animals either.
Since this seems to be what Zongmi was also trying to do, it makes sense that he would be one of the most important sources.

>Though Zongmi was not character within the zen stories and conversations, you may enjoy reading Foyan, Instant Zen https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Zen-Waking-Up-Present/dp/1556431937 in the sense that Foyan spends a lot of time disabusing Zongmi's followers (not his immediate followers, but the institutional results of Zongm's point of view, which prevailed in Song period Chan Orthodoxy) of which Foyan is critical, and expounds upon.

I've read Foyan already (a year ago or so). I don't remember too much, though.
Maybe I'll reread it when I have time, trying to see how his teaching is actually a reaction to the conceptualized zen of people following
academics Zongmi.

Thanks!

I don't think the zen characters expressed any metaphysical views, or conceptual explanations in their teachings. Logic, yes, to expose hypocrisy but not to try to support or clarify Mazu’s position.

Mazu points. What is pointed at (the moon) is inherently a mystery. Zen is experienced non verbally, non conceptually.

Zongmi is building conceptual models, truths, a philosophical and metaphysical synthesis, verbal descriptions of reality. This is not what Mazu, Dongshan, or their followers were doing. Later, expecially in the Song period, people who claimed to be in the lineage of Mazu and Dongshan had essentially hijacked the lineage name in order to teach a new Buddhist synthesis, based largely on what Zongmi had done:

>Zongmi's lifelong work was the attempt to incorporate differing and sometimes conflicting value systems into an integrated framework that could bridge not only the differences between Buddhism and the traditional Taoism and Confucianism, but also within Buddhist theory itself.

Zongmi was classifying the finger, not looking at the moon. His interests had nothing to do with zen. And yet Zongmi's work provides the

>"most valuable sources on Tang dynasty Zen. There is no other extant source even remotely as informative"

according to Broughton, who speaks for all modern Buddhist Religious Studies department academia in this regard.

I also addressed some of this in a recent conversation with grass skirt, a Buddhist academic Phd candidate:

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/4u2v6d/hating_ewk/d5nf9ns?context=3

>point me to some other book or website ..... that clarify's Zongmi's interpretation of Mazu

Though Zongmi was not character within the zen stories and conversations, you may enjoy reading Foyan, Instant Zen https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Zen-Waking-Up-Present/dp/1556431937 in the sense that Foyan spends a lot of time disabusing Zongmi's followers (not his immediate followers, but the institutional results of Zongm's point of view, which prevailed in Song period Chan Orthodoxy) of which Foyan is critical, and expounds upon.

> Regression fits the descriptive model of Venn diagrams, which are logically identical descriptive compliments to any "topological" modeling based on set-theory.

Uhh. If I google regression set theory nothing comes up.

Are you writing this for you or for everyone else?

>If we "begin" with a "set of all sets", meaning "nothing whatsoever"

The set of all sets does not mean nothing. The origin of the set of all sets was a way for Godel to disprove ZFC. It can be used as an exercise in exploring different kinds of infinity though.

>"SCSPL" means "Self Configured, Self Processing Language", which is the barest description of reality in a nutshell. Regardless if reality is the "apparent 14 billion year old universe" we know and love, or a "primordial black hole of infinite density", SCSPL is the predicate which describes either form, and show that both must exist in simultaneous compliment to each other.

You might like GEB quite a bit, which talks about pretty much everything you're talking about.

I always recommend engaging with primary source works (translated, naturally...), but some people are not ready to grapple with Yuanwu's collection of koans or with Linji yet.

Some initial works to start out:

• The Way of Zen, by Alan Watts
  
• Buddhism is Not What You Think, by Steve Hagen
  
• The Taoteching (the Taoist classic - Taoism is the mother of Zen)
  
• What the Buddha Taught (a primer on classic Buddhism - Buddhism is the father of Zen)
  
• Headless experiments inspired by Douglas Harding
  
  If you've worked through (one or more of) those and want more, some primary works I recommend:
  
  
• The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma
  
• The Platform Sutra, by Huineng the 6th Patriarch of Zen
  
• The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po
  
  That will get you to a good level.

Definitely The Roaring Stream: A New Zen Reader

It's a comprehensive anthology of many well-known works from zen literature, presented in chronological order with an interesting introduction to each writer. The translation is very readable - I'd recommend this book to just about anyone with an interest in zen.

It covers writings [i.e. translations from direct sources] from Bodhidharma, Huineng, Shitou, Mazu, Huangbo, Zhaouzhou, Linji, Deshan, Yunmen, Dahui, Dogen, Ikkyu, Bankei, Basho, Hakuin, Ryokan, and many more! I can't recommend it enough.

No, it wouldn't be a waste of time. It's not an "all or nothing" thing. What you get out of it is directly proportional to what you put into it. :) Opening the Hand of Thought: Great book!

Opening the Hand of Thought has been super helpful for me.

Recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu, trans. by Green.

A wonderfully entertaining book. Zhaozhou (Joshu) is famous for his very short but nonetheless often very complicated or laugh out loud answers to a really wide variety of questions.

> I used to practice zen

You didn’t. What you did was some mind relaxation to not lose your cool.

If you’re interested in zen, I recommend you to dive deeper into the topic.

Would it help you with your housemate problem? Oh boy, you have no idea what’s waiting for ya :D

1. [Blue Cliff Record] (https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Cliff-Record-Thomas-Cleary/dp/159030232X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479373811&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+cliff+record)
by the Cleary brothers.

The preface will provide you a good introduction to the history of zen. Plus, insights into the lineage of the masters.

This book is actually a collection of koans. But my advice is: Don't jump into cold water. Make yourself familiar with the background first (preface's).

2. [Zen Essence] (https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Essence-Shambhala-Dragon-Editions/dp/1570625883/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479374319&sr=8-1&keywords=zen+essence+thomas+cleary) by Thomas Cleary.

Cleary provides quotes/ sayings from the masters referring to “topics” or “questions”, like “Zen Teaching?”, “Basis of Zen?”, “Summary of Zen Practice?”.

I think this approach is very helpful for people who want to get introduced to Zen, in terms of “What the hell is this shit about?” -- good guy Thomas Cleary!

3. Gateless Gate
by Robert Aiken.

This is rather a workbook for the practitioner than literature regarding zen.

I haven’t read the book I’ve linked to, but in my opinion, starting with the Mumonkan without any notes or comments from contemporary scholars/ students/ teachers/ translators is not the right approach. Use the commentaries from Aitken only as an orientation or a hint. The meaning itself has to be found by you!

Two Zen Classics is a wonderful translation and background on The Gateless Gate and The Blue Cliff Record. The translations are accessible and the background information is helpful without being too on the nose to drive your analytical mind to overwhelm your ability to practice the koans. I'd recommend it without reservation.

I think that Opening the Hand of Thought is a great manual on Shikantaza.

You could check out the Hsin Hsin Ming, but there are some issues with relying on only a single text. If you treat it as an explanation of your own life, and then bring your own ideas into it, you end up with a modified version of your own ideas, which isn't what Zen talks about.

So, I'd recommend you try and read many different authors that talk about the same thing, in the form of Zen Essence, or just by buying a bunch of different Zen Master books and studying until you see the common theme outside of words.

Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching: volume I https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3BJK1Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_vfM7ybH8BVKEG

Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching: Volume II https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XPMTL23/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fgM7yb4CNR7WX

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01N3BJK1Y/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1494106805&sr=1-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=treasury+of+the+true+eye+of+the+teaching&dpPl=1&dpID=51vcf8SdkGL&ref=plSrch

Transmission of the Lamp volumes are pretty good too.

Introduction to Zen Buddhism was my first book on Zen, and it was an interesting read with some solid context to the whole Zen teachings, written by Suzuki, who introduced Zen to the western world back in the day


Currently I am reading Two Zen Classics: The Gateless Gate and The Blue Cliff Records which is a solid read after the introduction with many of the well known koans

He has another book which is interesting too: https://www.amazon.com/Two-Zen-Classics-Gateless-Records/dp/1590302826/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524441513&sr=8-1&keywords=two+zen+classics

For instructions on how to meditate, I do like what Katsuki Sekida says about the breath and the posture, but in relation to what to do with the toughts that come up during meditation, I like the tecnique that Charlotte Joko Beck describes in her 2 books:

http://b-ok.xyz/book/896012/9548eb

http://b-ok.xyz/book/967966/ece399

You can go to page 25 of the book "everyday zen" for one of the chapters where she describes the technique.

I'm interested in a paper copy. Is this the translation you'd recommend?

If you are considering trying a longer Sesshin, then Opening the Hand of Thought. However that book might be slightly less popular here than Zen Mind Beginners Mind.

The Blue Cliff Record is a famous collection of koans with commentary. I've never actually owned a copy myself, but always enjoyed dipping into it at other people's libraries.

I liked the roaring stream as a historical survey anthology of original (translated) source material with background.

> This is actually a thing I've been contemplating since I was a young boy

Your post reminded me of a story from Foyan about someone who lost his body and became enlightened.

From the same book, and as a comment to the story described above, I've been contemplating this:

"Your body is not there, yet not nothing. Its presence is the presence of the body in the mind; so it has never been there. Its nothingness is the absence of the body in the mind; so it has never been nothing.
Do you understand? If you go on to talk of mind, it too is neither something nor nothing; ultimately it is not you."

Foyan calls this the "marrow of Zen".

> Get out the hacksaw and let us have a look.

Hah. No thanks. For now, I prefer to live vicariously through you. :-)

Oh, no need to apologize anyway. There's just a lot of... backstory.

You'll need to couple source material like the below with the above historical scholarship if you want to come to a full understanding.

As for some primary sources:

Tang dynasty teachers who were students of Mazu (one of the most influential Zen teachers ever)

Dazhu (although, relevant)

Huangbo

Baizhang (this text is prohibitively expensive on Amazon, so look in local libraries.)

Song dynasty teachers

Yuanwu (1, 2)

Hongzhi (1, 2) (note, take Taigen dan Leighton's introduction to Cultivating the Empty Field with a grain of salt, as he's a shitty scholar. He basically just misrepresents Hongzhi and Dahui's relationship. See Schlutter's How Zen Became Zen for more details.)

Song dynasty kanhua Chan teachers (kanhua is the main approach to Zen in both Rinzai and Seon)

Dahui (Yuanwu's student)

Wumen

A Japanese Zen teacher

Bankei (1, 2)

A Korean Zen teacher

Daehaeng (1, 2, 3)

___

Note that this leaves out huge swathes of the literature, including all of the literature associated with the East Mountain teaching, the Northern school, the Oxhead school, Soto, most of Rinzai, Obaku, most of Seon, etc. Of course, some people with more fixed and essentialist ideas of what "Zen" is object to the idea that some of these other schools/lineages are actually "Zen". Use your own head. (I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong; I'm just saying that once you feel comfortable with the basics, start to think critically about Zen and your own study of it, including e.g. how you would decide which teachings to follow, and why.)

There's no roster of "Zen masters^TM " anywhere, so the above is a bit of a random mix of my own choosing.

While reading, note what people say and ask yourself questions -- where do they agree? Where do they disagree? If they disagree, should that be reconciled or not, and why?

Some more pointed questions to ask for each book: What can one do to reach awakening? What ways to reach awakening are preferred over others? What practices and doctrines are criticized? Is there any cultivation necessary at any point along the path? If yes, what is to be cultivated? If the teacher is talking about the teachings of earlier masters, are those teachers being represented accurately, or are extrinsic frameworks being laid onto them to fit the later teacher's presentation of Zen? If you had to sum up the teacher's teaching in a slogan, what would it be?

Really, the main thing is that you can think critically about what you're reading, but the above reading list and approach would give you a really solid foundation for the things people tend to talk about on this forum.

thanks, I will. i have my own reading materials.

Looks like someone's been reading GEB!

Actually I do have a Zen suggestion for you. I highly recommend Zen Mind Beginners Mind by Suzuki Roshi.

Also while Lojong is more out of the Tibetan Tradition. There is a Zen teacher by the name of Norman Fischer who has given many talks on and written a book about Lojong from a Zen'ish perspective.

Try picking up a copy of Dogen's Shobogenzo. I like the Nishijima and Cross translation here: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Dogens-Shobogenzo-Book-1/dp/1419638203

>Dahui's Real Original, the First Shobogenzo:

Anybody that goes around on the internet telling people he knows what's "real" usually needs to get his tinfoil hat checked.

Instant Zen.

Here is the mobile version of your link

Here!

The jar represents entangling thoughts and calculations/confusions.

Kicking it over is zen.

What is zen? Words can only barely point to it, but here is a start:

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/lineagetexts

Or here:

https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Essence-Shambhala-Dragon-Editions/dp/1570625883

I'd guess it's from that same book he mentioned before, http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Essence-Shambhala-Dragon-Editions/dp/1570625883

From the book Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu

Here is the answer. Work on it padawan.

Sekida

Have you ever read Zen Letters? Yuanwu has a couple chapters talking about the Tao not the wacky worship cult.

Still working on it.

Not a fan of Hoffman, bailed on that one. I'm reading this right now.

> Dahui's Original Shobogenzo:
>
>.
>
>ewk \^? note: People who don't study Zen, but instead attach themselves to religious doctrines and messiahs and such can't handle words like this... they invariable add some "wisdom" or something to this teaching to "help" people with supernatural "wisdom"... but all this really adds is their desperation. Zen students on the other hand will shrug and say, "outside of words" or "vain talk", but what does this take away from "still doesn't leave"?
>
>Without adding anything, without knowledge of what hasn't left, where are we?


That's all that will display for me on mobile and my laptop in multiple browsers. Mobile shows a partial quote preview after "Shobogenzo:" but all it displays is what I quoted. What the heck!

 

 


look, joshu spent is life working on zen, who are you with your ignorant jumped up opinions and suburban life!

 

wasting your time here reinforcing your idiocies

 

you need to read his life

 

you can't see the sense of what I am saying can you ! ? :o(


 

 

> Well it isn't only books

Yes it is. Here, I'll copy and paste the whole damn thing:

1. New to Zen reading list
   
   Sayings of Zen Master Joshu- Green Translation
   Joshu (Zhaozhou) is known for his short, one or two sentences answers to questions about Zen study.
   
   Mumonkan, a book of instruction, poetry and Cases for novices written by Zen Master Mumon (Wumen)
   Perhaps the single most famous Zen text, it is an alarmingly short book, made more alarming by it's lack of instruction and complexity.
   R.H. Blyth's Zen and Zen Classics series, particularly volumes 2, 3, and 4 (Mumonkan), are essential texts for anyone new to Zen. These books are out of print, the Japanese publisher has gone out of business, but sites like Terebess.hu hosts electronic copies and random Redditors may also be able to direct you to electronic versions.
   
   Zen Teaching of Huang Po
   For anyone familiar with Buddhist doctrines, Huangbo's sayings and lectures serve as an excellent introduction to Zen and how Zen is incompatible with Buddhism.
   
   Give it up for the Legendary Yunmen! Back in Print! Still short, pithy, and smack talky! http://www.amazon.com/Master-Yunmen-From-Record-Clouds/dp/1568360053
   
   
2. Overview of the flavor of Zen:
   
   R.H. Blyth: Zen and Zen Classics, Volume 2: Huineng to Yunmen
   R.H. Blyth: Zen and Zen Classics, Volume 3: Dongshan and Mazu and their heirs
   R.H. Blyth: Zen and Zen Classics, Volume 4: Munonkan (Wumenguan), The penultiment Zen text
   
   
3. Shorter Zen texts
   
   In order of the complexity of the language, references, constructions from less to more.
   
   Sayings texts, Zhaozhou (Joshu), Yunmen (Ummon), the book by Wumen (Mumon) called The Gateless Gate. Also the poem by the 3rd Patriarh, Faith In Mind.
   The sayings with lectures texts, Foyan and after that, Huangbo (Huang Po).
   The books written by Zen Masters Yuanwu (Blue Cliff Record) and Wansong (Book of Serenity, Cleary trans.)
   The Platform Sutra, the bodhidharma attributed texts, stuff from Dunhuang.
   
   
4. Books by Zen Masters
   
   Mumonkan, a book of instruction, poetry and Cases for novices written by Zen Master Mumon (Wumen) and a poorer translation w/ Chinese
   Perhaps the single most famous Zen text it is an alarming short book, made more alarming by it's lack of instruction and complexity.
   
   Book of Serenity
   Written by Wansong, this is the definitive text on the Caodong lineage. Buddhist priests in the last few decades have been trying to republish the book deleting Wansong's text and inserting religious sermons.
   
   Blue Cliff Record
   Written by Yuanwu, this is very long and very famous book of Zen instruction, Cases and poems in the same format as Book of Serenity.
   
   
5. Zen texts that reject Philosophy
   
   Foyan - Instant Zen
   
   Mumonkan
   
   Yunmen
   
   
6. Zen Texts that reject Buddhist doctrines
   
   Huangbo
   
   Foyan - Instant Zen
   
   Yunmen
   
   
7. Zen texts with the most jokes
   
   Joshu (Zhaozhou)
   
   Layman Pang
   
   Yunmen
   
   
8. Mellow Zen Reading
   
   (especially if you skip right to the Zen sections)
   
   Foyan - Instant Zen - Instant Zen
   
   Mazu - Sun Face Buddha
   
   Zhaozhou - Sayings of Zen Master Joshu
   
   
9. Why Japanese "Zen-Buddhism" is not Zen
   
   Scholarship:
   
   Bielefeldt's Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation: Dogen didn't study Zen, Dogen invented Zazen prayer-meditation, Dogen was a fraud and a plagiarist.
   
   The Sound of One Hand, Hoffmann tras.: Hakuin's "answer key" to Zen koans, kept secret until publication in 1918, provides the answers monks have to give to get certified by the Rinzai church.
   
   Pruning The Bodhi Tree: A collection of essays about the doctrinal basis of Japanese Buddhism, the irreconcilable conflicts with Zen, and the attempt at a Critical Buddhist reformation.
   
   The Zen Doctrine of No-Mind by D.T. Suzuki. Exploring why "Zen" never meant "meditation"
   
   https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.57108/2015.57108.Zen-Doctrine-Of-No-Mind_djvu.txt
   See also r/zen/wiki/dhyana
   
   
10. Naked Ambition
    
    Dahui's Shobogenzo, Vol. 1-2:
    Volume 1: https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Eye-True-Teaching-I-ebook/dp/B01N3BJK1Y/
    Volume 2: https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Eye-True-Teaching-II-ebook/dp/B06XPMTL23/
    
    Blue Cliff Record, Cleary trans.
    
    Book of Serenity, Cleary trans.
    
    
11. Texts from the real Caodong/Soto lineage
    
    Wansong's Book of Serenity, translated by Cleary https://www.amazon.com/Book-Serenity-One-Hundred-Dialogues/dp/1570623813
    Book of Serenity was written by Wansong himself
    Other books having that title are not Zen texts, regardless of religious claims
    Dongshan's Recorded Sayings of Tung-shan. https://www.amazon.com/Record-Tung-Shan-Classics-Asian-Buddhism/dp/0824810708
    Dongshan, aka Tung-shan, was the first Caodong Master. Caodong comes from "Caoshan + Dongshan". Caoshan was one of Dongshan's dharma heirs.
    Zen and Zen Classics, Vol. 3, by R.H. Blyth