Reddit mentions of Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, Second Edition

Time to have a come-to-Jesus talk with this man. Brush up on your "crucial conversations" skills, let him know your expectations of him, that you support him, and see if he's interested in development opportunities. Basically - be a good leader. He'll either come around or he won't.

OK, kiddo, a couple of things here.

I can tell you're upset and feeling guilty, but take a minute to breathe deeply and relax. This is an extremely emotionally charged and heavy situation with great potential to go pear-shaped, yes, but this isn't insurmountable. You're not a terrible person for feeling this way because a) "I've had enough," is a legitimate reason to end a relationship, and b) you're trying very hard, almost too hard, to be respectful of his feelings.

First thing's first: Are you both OK, medically? A year without intimacy is a long time, and you don't really offer up any explanation for why. Are either of you sick or depressed? Have you just grown apart from him because he's not interested? Or, have you lost interest? The answer to this question will inform all your future decisions.

Second, what do you want here? Do you want to try to recover the relationship, or is it way too late? Recovery, of course, would start off with couple's therapy to identify what went wrong and how to better communicate with each other to prevent this happening in the future. If either of you are dealing with depression or other emotional trauma, individual therapy should also be considered. Medical issues should also be addressed as required.

You seem to indicate that you're all done, and it also seems like you've drifted away from him but he's still interested in you, so we'll proceed in that vein.

Have you been open and honest with your partner about how you're feeling? If not, this will be an even more difficult conversation because he'll feel blind-sided. If you are unsure of how to have a hard conversation like this, give Crucial Conversations a read. It can help you more safely navigate the murky waters of emotionally-charged conversations. A bit of individual therapy would not go amiss here, either. It will help you frame your ideas, temper your emotions and practice your words to help you prepare for the break-up. If you need help finding a free/low cost therapist and are in North America, dialing 2-1-1 will help you access community resources.

Practice your conversation, get used to saying what you will have to say. Pack your things and move your precious things to safety if you think there will be a chance for violence, and consider having a witness or two on hand just in case things get out of hand.

During your conversation, try to stay cool and collected. If he gets upset and starts accusing you of taking advantage of him, stay calm, tell him you can see why he would feel that way and assure him that was not your intent.

Remember: once you've responsibly broken it off with him, his emotions are not longer your concern, unless he's lashing out and making you feel unsafe (in which case, withdraw to safety or contact the police for help, whichever seems called for.)

Remember: you're not a bad person. People grow and change and relationships end. That doesn't mean either party was "bad" or "good." It just means the relationship has ended. Look at me: I'm Mormon. We believe marriage should be eternal. Forever. I'm divorced and remarried. Neither my ex or I would characterize the other as "evil." Don't get me wrong, I don't like my ex or want to spend any time near her if I don't have to, but I recognize that she's doing the best she can with what she's got and the two of us are just not compatible.

This will be hard, but I know you can do it, and I know you will do it responsibly. Regardless of what direction you choose, allow me to recommend seeing a good therapist before, during and after. Talking to a trained professional always helps.

I love you and am proud of you!

Love,

Dad

P.S.
If I'm honest, a year without intimacy has probably gotten a little old for him, too. He may be ready for this to end as well.

No therapy is probably going to make this harder. Have you looked into anti anxiety medication with your GP? Even if it's to get the edge off while you try to work things out?

​

Anyways, fellow depression/anxiety/lashes out when stressed sufferer here. There's a couple of things that have helped for me:

- Build alternative communication skills. One of my biggest problems was that I didn't know how to properly voice my issues with my SO or anybody else for that matter. My first method of action was being passive aggressive or snide. When I realized what I was doing, I jumped to the other extreme and bottled it all up. Can't ruin things if you're not saying anything, amiright?! But then that would just explode later and cause more problems. A book that helped me very much is Crucial Conversations. It speaks about the thinking fallacies people tend to have (choosing between being honest and being nice), common communication mistakes and a step by step plan on how you can bring hard topics to the table. I use these basics in normal conversations too, when the "stakes" aren't as high. Having an alternative method for me to switch to, instead of my old ones, really helped.

- Change your internal narrative. Another thing that has been absolutely exhausting to deal with is the constant internal monologue about not being good enough, nice enough, kind enough. I should, I need to, if I was a great person I would... If you constantly beat yourself down, you stay down and words have meaning and a certain weight on their own. If I keep telling myself that I suck and I was an idiot for doing xyz, that feeling will stay. I would strongly advice reading A Guide to Rational Living by Albert Ellis. It's a bit of an old book, but I felt like they guy described perfectly what goes on inside my head. By telling yourself that you did something "less than ideal" instead of "incredibly stupid" you kind of take the edge off the situation. I know it sounds stupid, but I've been trying to get into the habit of this and found that after a while I went from having a meltdown of "OMG HOW COULD I BE SUCH AN IDIOT, I WILL NEVER LEARN?!" to facepalming, sighing at myself and be very firm in doing better next time. The energy I save with that, that I would otherwise have wasted, is very useful for other things.

- Change your external narrative. Words have a meaning and interpretations. Sometimes we're raised with ways of phrasing things and don't even realize what exactly it is we're saying. I found that I had a tendency of trying to subconsciously manipulate those around me through language. Basically shoving my feelings onto someone else, so they would make me feel better. Obviously things like bullying are big, clear markers, but there's a lot more subtle ways that people do it and don't even realize. The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense by Suzette Elgin discusses how one would use language against others without being overly aggressive. It made me realize how people were actually manipulating me, but also how I was manipulating them. Have you ever used something like "Well, if you really loved me you would..." or "Even someone like you would understand...". Big communication nono's, but because they're not as aggressive like "You're a bitch" or "Get fucked", people tend to not notice them. By recognizing these patterns being used on you and you using themselves, you can stop using them but also learn tools on how to deal when someone uses them on you.

- Self reflect, self reflect, self reflect. Through my education I was forced to constantly look at my strong and weak points. I had to write assessments twice a year on what I did right and wrong, with proof. And believe me, if you either had an assessment that was all negative or all positive the teachers would have a talk with you about how well you were reflecting. Then after college I landed in a job where every year I had to do the exact darn thing. What had I learned this year? What did I improve since last year? What are my goals for next year? How do I plan to achieve those goals and why did I have those goals? What are reasonable, doable steps to not only achieve the goals, but to also improve some weaknesses? Again, and again, and again. It's hard to say you suck and can't do anything write and you don't have any good qualities when you're forced to look at yourself and point out what your good qualities are. You start usually with small or general things like "well... I'm always on time to work" or "well... I don't maim animals." While I learned this through circumstances, a friend recommended Acceptance: Time to Self-Reflect for Personal Growth by Dr. Olivia Miller as a good starting point. Where are you at now and where do you want to be next year around this time? How are you planning on getting there? What are small, reasonable steps to get there?

- Get to know yourself. Last tip I can give you is that YOU focus on YOU first. Do you have a clear self image of who you are? What do you want in life? What are your likes and dislikes? What would your ideal self and world be 2, 5, 10 years from now? Would you want to be a successful writer? Would you rather have traveled the globe? Or be a doctor, communication expert at a company, mother of 2 kids, have 2 dogs and a cat? People who don't have a clear outline of who they are, tend to be less secure and more often to lash out to others. Having a relationship with someone, while you don't like or know yourself tends to be a disaster. Because people will tend to try and get an identity or validation through the other person to feel good. Then when that other person does something away from the partner (like go on an outing with friends, talk to another person of the opposite gender or just not pick up the phone) the partner become insecure and might lash out because of it. This combines with the self reflecting, who ARE you? What do YOU want? Things like self confidence and high self esteem are nice and dandy, but they can't exist if you don't have a good idea of who you are. Start with looking at yourself first, before looking at your SO. Start small: what food do you like and dislike? What's your favorite color? Favorite way of eating an egg? Then build up the scale: Do you want a pet? Cat or a dog or something completely different? How many? Go higher again: Do you want kids? If so, why and how many? Would you like to be married? Why or why not? And higher again: What do you look for in a spouse? What would your ideal career look like? Until you've got a clear picture of who you are.

Obviously there's a lot of other stuff you can do, but I'd start with those five and go from there.

1. https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 helps with conversations on difficult topics. There may be a revised version by now.
   
   
2. You are engaged to someone and are only now finding this out?
   
   
3. He makes 6 figures and has credit card debt? He is probably not looking to FIRE.
   
   
4. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/ is a better place to ask.
   
   
5. Intentionally left blank to make the list seem longer.
   
   
6. If none of the above steps help then do not marry him.

I feel for you. I used to be in a relationship with an atheist and remember rehearsing during my drive home from work how I would break the news that I would be giving 10% of my earned income to the church because.. God. Thankfully I never had the courage to tell her and thankfully I started reading atheist books and dropped the superstition.

 

It's a tight situation for you - totally. It looks like you both have a few Crucial Conversations ahead of you.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about deconverting your wife... I would suggest using Street Epistemology if you do - but really it's about the shared vision for your family and your home and whether donating 10% to a church will help accomplish what you two are setting out to do.

The only thing you can control is your own reaction to things. Ignoring him when he's giving you the silent treatment doesn't seem like the best approach, since that's what you're mad at him for doing. For tips on having difficult conversations, I really recommend the book Crucial Conversations. It's a quick read, and you seem like someone who would be able to apply its lessons to other areas of your life, too. Good luck!

Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When the Stakes are High

What a cool example! Thanks for sharing.

is this the book?
https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822

That's honestly a fairly major part of one of the more popular business communication books of late. https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 There's a big focus on the stories we tell ourselves about other peoples statements and actions. Namely that most people tend to fill in the blanks very pessimistically and always assume bad intentions.

Text communication is the worst for this, I had someone flip thier shit a week ago because they read my "No idea, here's my best idea of what's going on" as "You're a dumbass, the answer is right in front of you stop asking stupid questions."

> This is generally true, but there's also the situation where you're just not very good at something and it's stressful and overwhelming to adapt.

First of all, I respect your discernment. Agree/disagree comments are fine, but when someone provides a conditional agree/disagree comment - it demonstrates a certain degree of intellectual prowess.

> if you're fat and go to work out for the first time, that's gonna be a bitch. Or if you're learning to be a computer programmer for the first time

Are there some people in those situations though, who are enthusiastic instead of stressed?

Of course there are. In any given situation, there are infinite meanings humans can create out of their experience; and emotions are shaped by meanings.

Am I saying this is always easy? No, but it is a learn-able skill and it can become easy.

Crucial Conversations has some good tips on how to take this seemingly abstract conversations and translate it into concrete habits you can implement.

The book Crucial Conversations teaches you how to navigate situations just like this.

No, I don't. I work in that very place locally. And I like it.

Sure, we have problems. No place is immune to problems - but its how you deal with them, and how they're addressed.

We've all had Crucial Conversations training, and actually put it to use. We support a work-life balance for real, and not the bullshit claims that are said but never acted on.

This is one of the few jobs that I like showing up day to day. There's shit we can't dismiss because its external to us - but even up to the CEO all support us.

Therapy - for both you and your partner, separately and as a couple (if you can manage it, I know that can be tough) - is my advice for a first step. It sounds like you're trying, but still struggling when you get reactions that you're not used to or prepared for. Communication is definitely a key thing and a good, trans-affirming therapist can be an incredibly helpful first step in overcoming that first hurdle. If you'd like something to help that's more immediately available, I recommend Crucial Conversations - it was incredibly helpful to me long before anything trans-related came up in my life.

Also, there's no need to compare your pain and struggles to hers. What she's going through is incredibly difficult, yes, but you shouldn't feel guilty for not understanding every part of it or having been through something similar. Belittling the experiences that made you who you are today will only make adjusting to all the changes in your lives that much more difficult. Her struggles are different from yours, and that's okay. You're both going to be going through a lot together as she begins her transition.

Be strong and sure in who you are and continue to choose to be there for your partner. That is extremely important in all of this. If the two of you love one another and are willing to put in the work, you can find a way through this rough patch. <3

I recommend "Crucial Conversations" (Amazon). This is one of the books we used at work for management training.

It seems that if I express any negative emotion, people think I'm angry or scarey or both. It feels like I'm not allowed to have genuine feelings in case I accidentally express myself in a way others see as threatening. Which is really hard for me because I wear my emotions on my sleeve. And let's not get into the mixed messages or inconsistent standards.

What I have found that works are the methodology from the book Crucial Conversations.

• Keep in mind that you can only change yourself.
  
• Watch for when a conversation becomes critical; ie, be aware of your emotional state and constantly understand why it's changing.
  
• Focus on your goal; ie don't let your emotions run away with you, instead stay focused on manage the situation.
  
• Keep the conversation "safe" for others. Don't do or behave in a way that will discourage others from communicating.
  
  The book has a bunch of other advice about managing others' emotional state and keeping conversations unencumbered with drama, but those are the guidelines that I've found have worked well for me to manage my own emotional state.

If you're looking for a book about communicating better, I'd recommend Crucial Conversations.

I'd recommend the book Crucial Conversations. Fantastic book on communication.

I've read a lot and sometimes they meld into my head over time (and it's been a few years for me on this topic) but I do think both of these are worth reading if you are stuck in a toxic mix of bad patterns of behavior:
Crucial Conversations --
Crucial Accountability

Likely that second one will help her STOP taking accountability for things that are NOT her problem and allow her to feel okay to back away when that is part of the issue.

All you need to know is in this book. It has changed my relationship with everyone.

Crucial Conversations

https://amzn.com/1469266822

I am glad that you finally got through to your parents, and I agree with the positive comments that are already here. So as not to just repeat what other people have been saying, let me just add one or two things that I hope will be helpful for you in the long run.

And it actually has less to do with Mormonism than you might think. It sounds like you had some issues that built up for many years and they finally boiled over and turned ugly. It's easy to justify saying some blunt, rude, and aggressive things afterward with a false dichotomy: it was either that or suffer in silence. Maybe you could see this as a starting point: instead of bottling up, you let it out. Now, look into some strategies for letting it out in a more effective way. Think carefully about what "victory" means to you and your relationship with your parents, and have specific goals in mind when you talk to them. It sounds like your parents don't have certain important communication skills, and you may not have them either as a result. That isn't your fault. However, your adult life is just beginning, and you have plenty of time to be so much better than they are.

The book that helped me pick up all the skills my parents lacked is called crucial conversations. I wish you the best of luck as you move forward with your life.

Borrow this book at your library: https://www.amazon.ca/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. When my marriage was on the skids due to the church (there was a little bit of sexual frustration in the mix as well) I was so depressed and anxious. It sucks balls. I didn't think I could have a worse two years than my mission. But we made it through and we're doing better than ever.

My mantra: I will become a great communicator.

I will work on communicating my needs and understanding my wife's needs. If this leads to divorce, that will be for the best because we are not able to fulfill each other's needs. If we stay together, it will be for the best because we are both fulfilling each other's needs. Divorce vs staying together will be the result of good communication.

This is my favorite intro to assertive communication and I'd also suggest picking up a copy of Crucial Conversations.

You can get through this and get to a more healthy relationship that includes sexual fulfillment. Internet strangers are rooting for you!

I'm not going to apologize for the rant that follows, because you are one of the most opinionated posters on this sub who acts like their opinion is always right, regardless of evidence that may indicate otherwise.

Start paying attention to things that happen outside of your bubble and take in information that is presented to you in the spirit of discussion. Note that when you state an unequivocal opinion on the internet, people are generally going to call you out on your bullshit, and you should fucking expect to have to defend yourself. Otherwise, you can just stop fucking responding and/or stop posting holier-than-thou bullshit.

>I don't think reading scientific studies actually teaches you how to act in a given situation

[Because I don't mind providing evidence to back up my opinions.] (https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822) This is how some people use science to inform their actions in given situations.

Crucial conversations

Any review i give isnt as good as the reviews. Check it out

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822

Here's a link
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822

There is another book called crucial confrontations that is excellent, it focuses more on confronting someone about not doing what they promised or were assigned to do. It is excellent for workplace issues or dealing with particularly prickly people.

I'm glad it was helpful. It takes practice to get it down. I practice by going through conversations in my head and mapping it out to get my plan before I talk to the person. It is tricky at first but it gets easier.

Maybe reading this book would be a good long-term investment

Ahhhh. I see. That's helpful.

When it comes to leadership (and training leaders) Toyota sets the bar. But they've also built a complete system and culture around it. This is something I try to do at every place I've been, people are our most important resource. As Scrum Masters we should be doing everything possible to instill this into the industry. we should take the time to invest in our people to ensure we have strong leaders at all levels of the organization. A culture that actively encourages and reinforces skill growth is more likely to attract and retain top talent.

To get you started, I'd recommend reading Crucial Conversations. Leadership requires you to have a good understanding of both people and process. understanding people is slightly more important, as process understanding can be delegated to/shared with the team. It's generally much easier to learn process than people skills. Still, as a Scrum Master you should consider yourself part process engineer.

Anyway, the focus of the book is to help you understand and dig into the 'why' when it comes to conflict. It also gives you some techniques to try.

To help you accelerate your learning, you should consider the differences between managing a team, leading a team, and coaching a team. After that you should begin to understand the different ways people learn. This will not only help your own learning, but allow you to more easily teach/coach a team.

A few techniques that might help you out:

provide answers in the form of a question instead of a statement. Don't provide solutions, instead consider how to 'incept' the idea into the team. By figuring it out themselves it reinforces their learning and progress. When they are struggling, you should explain the concept but allow them to put it into practice. Everything should be driven by the team, you're just a catalyst that makes it easier.

Scrum helps you out a lot in this regard, as many of the by-the-book processes break things in specific ways(It's probably more correct to say there are common problems in the industry that we see at most organizations, they generally break the same way). As you become more experienced you can make recommendations that will highlight specific problem areas in the next sprint. This will prime the next retrospective towards a specific topic/area. This becomes easier as you get a better understanding of process and workflow.

One of the items in your job description is to remove impediments. Keep in mind that this includes morale. a team (member) with low morale will be less engaged, and that means lower productivity.

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822

Wow, I honestly didn't expect that to be such touchy subject.

You may find some benefit from this book.

Regarding your response:
My complaints as you put it, are in your mind. I have no significant attachment regarding the outcome of that reference. I used it as an example of a problem insofar as sustainability and waste are concerned.

Your comment regarding a victim complex i'll let pass with this reply: I said many consider that culture, of note is that I never included myself in that grouping and again what would be the point of a discussion if I was included. There wouldn't be any point.

This post has been centered around a singular problem. The level of tacit knowledge to perform basic tasks is too high in linux (in mine, and others opinion) and growing from that discussion has been an unfortunate focus on an attitude issue or culture if you will.
"A projection", as you say, is simply an issue being all in your head (i.e. skewed perception), but others have recognized this very issue being a problem and thus this particular characterization is without merit.

I wouldn't call standing my ground, and calling out bad behavior as being sensitive, though I can see how some might see it that way.
As for ego, I don't have much of that, which I think is a good thing as it allows flexibility in finding solutions others would miss. I do appreciate people staying on topic during a discussion though.

I am familiar with the book. Its a nice piece of philosophy but there are significant issues with its use as a communication tool.

Positive beliefs can have a profound impact on people which is generally considered good, but assuming others will use that same belief to interpret communication is a poor assumption. Its only valid so long as everyone holds that belief, not everyone does, and some say they do when they don't.

A better approach is being specific, and respectful. It goes without saying that going off on tangent when one feels their beliefs are threatened is bad behavior.

Also, I feel I have to correct a notion you put forth about the tree branch in your post. Ambiguous communication isn't one meaning, or the other, its both and then its left up to the person receiving the communication to decide which meaning is correct based on context and what they know of the person.

When one assumes only a single meaning applies, when there is another that is equally valid, it is flawed logic and any subsequent response based upon such a premise is incorrect and not valid.

Additionally, while we are on the subject of flawed logic, fallacy arguments really have no place in intelligent discussion.

You seem intelligent, and so I'm assuming your aware of its uses in manipulating the direction of a conversation. It comes at great risk for one very important fact that is often overlooked.

That fact is that people don't like being manipulated, and it is not uncommon for there to be extreme negative sentiment towards the source once people realize its happened.

A perfect example would be, "how many people do you know like Michael Moore films?"

Best guess not many, his movies quickly lose their allure as one picks up on the subtle tactics used in the films to manipulate the viewer towards that viewpoint.

All that aside, if you have something to discuss that is germane to the topic at hand, please feel free.

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822/ref=nodl_

Trauma, stress, toxic culture, broken trust, lack of basic respect and dignity for fellow human beings. When citizens do not have physical or psychological safety, we end up in survival mode. We need both to heal from trauma, be innovative, creative, and thrive. We can no longer ignore emotional abuse, emotional neglect, verbal abuse, financial abuse, physical abuse, physical neglect. We keep harming each other and then wonder why there are issues. Time to acknowledge the cycles of abuse in our families, communities, and institutions. To wake up from the FOG of denial, stop sugarcoating realty, and face the facts - we are traumatized and need to help each other out, build each other up, support each other. It’s not a competition. We all have to look at ourselves, search out our biases, listen to different perspectives, find our blind spots, deal with our baggage, and heal together. Look for mutually beneficial solutions to our issues. Learn to have Crucial Conversations with each other. We are wired for connection, we need to get back to basics.

> There was a real and tangible concern that you were one of many americans who simply does not like the military. It's hardly uncommon on the internet, and in similar conversations I've had people flat out tell me that the military is a waste of time and shouldn't be used as a defintion of leadership because they are anti-war.

This pretty much tells me I should drop this conversation entirely with you because you are not being intellectually honest. You are choosing to argue from a preemptive strike perspective with zero tangible evidence, while simply adding shock value of "IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU HATE AMERICA." But as with so many internet discussions... Duty calls....

> > and while I was never personally able to serve in the military due to medical reasons

> Me too. Fuck allergies.

You stated previously you were in ROTC. Did you drop out? Were you in Junior ROTC? By your own statements I am lead to believe you are either a liar or someone otherwise actively misrepresenting themselves in order to cite military leadership doctrine. This is an unacceptable, inappropriate, and overall dishonorable.

> Then I suspect I'm much younger than you and also less well versed because of it.

I would tend to agree with that assessment...

> > I'm getting redundant at this point, but being an "actual leader" is not required to have anything to do with being the one in charge.

> It does in this context because Ruby is the one who was put in charge. She is, in effect, a commissioned officer, because she didn't step up to the task of leadership, she was assigned it. Also, she's not on a sports team, she's in a paramilitary organization/profession of arms. The most immediately annalogous and therefore most appropriate model for that leadership would be an officer.

> > Any Airman can be a leader and can positively influence those around him or her to accomplish the mission.

> But not every Airman is assigned to be leader. Ruby is the designated leader of team Ruby, not the first person to step up to bat in an unorganized setting.

Being an officer or being assigned does not inherently make you a leader, it simply gives you responsibility. How you handle that responsibility is what is relevant. I am arguing leadership theory and what traits make someone a good leader or a bad leader. I am not arguing specifics regarding policy or procedure. I am also not arguing that Ruby is some how the Mary Sue of leadership. What I am arguing is that Ruby exhibits many excellent natural leadership traits.

> > Leaders are not created by the chain of command. Leaders are merely given authority by the chain of command.

> Your right, they're created by training. But Ruby is already trained.

You are wrong. You are hands down, unequivocally, wrong. For someone to be a good leader they do not need any training at all. There are many elements (e.g., charisma, empathy, and attention to detail) that are inherent traits in some individual that make them naturally fall into the role of leader. Can training improve leaders? Absolutely. Should any leader stop learning and go "yep, I have become the greatest leader ever, there is no where to go from here"? Of course not. However leadership, and the potential for leadership can be an innate ability. Further citing the Air University manual: You were chosen to be an officer because you have the
potential qualities of a leader, just as an athlete is “signed” by a big league team and the aviation cadet is selected for flying training because they have certain innate abilities.

Furthermore, Ruby left Signal early and did not finish her training there. If anything she is actively untrained and being forced to learn on the job. Additionally, we have no reason to believe that anyone receives any degree of leadership training at these schools, or what that training consists of. Is "Crucial Conversations" on the Signal reading list? Or is Signal more focused on physical training and combat theory? We know Atlas takes a more militaristic approach with its academies, but what reason do we have to believe Signal does as well?

> > and setting of standards.

> Weiss's entire problem with Ruby were that she was demotivating because her standards were so low. Being late for class on the first day, sleeping in class on the first day, doodling instead of paying attention to the teacher, whispering instead of paying attention to the teacher, the list of ways in which Ruby has low personal standards for herself goes on and on, and Weiss strongly rejected all of them. She was incredibly demotivated by Ruby's "standards" as a leader. Is that good leadership?

Indeed. And when Ozpin pointed out her flaws to her, she immediately recognized that she needed to change and appreciated that she had failed in an aspect of leadership. Again, she is not the Mary Sue of leadership. What makes her stand out as a good leader is the same thing that makes Weiss stand out in her own way; when confronted with a weakness that was detrimental to the team dynamic (poor standard setting and poor followership respectively), they accepted their flaws and worked to try to better themselves for the success of the team.

> This isn't leading from the front, it's being reckless and unaccountable. Ruby has severe accountability issues, she's missing and isolated from her team with them having little to no idea where she is for the majority of the time they do, anything.

This is probably one of the few points I will agree with you on. Ruby's desire to ensure that she is on the front lines often comes into conflict with leading larger groups. However, had Ruby's reaction been to sit down, shut up, and do what the adult said, that would not be a demonstration of exemplary leadership skills either.

> > If we want to take an Air Force approach, Leadership is "the art of influencing and directing people in a way that will win their obedience, confidence, respect, and loyal cooperation, in achieving a common objective."

> And it what way does Ruby exemplify this? On the first day, one of her teammates tried to have her removed from being leader beause of how little confidence she had in her. Blake is constantly being "disloyal". She ran away from the team, twice, and Ruby never did a damn thing to address that. It's Weiss who questions Blake at the end of Volume 1 AND the beginning of volume 2 about her anti-social behaviour, not Ruby. Her teammates aren't inspired by her, they literally call her a kid behind her back in Mt. glen. They don't respect her, because they don't even vote for her to be in the doubles round. Two of them have been decidely unloyal, as a result of her failures as a leader.

She has not won the team's full confidence by Mountain Glenn in Volume 2. Based on their personal history, she's won it from Yang by episode 8 in Volume 1 (the moment where Yang is watching her lead everyone away from the ruins). However, she is quickly winning them over through her regular actions, so by the end of Volume 3 she has won. When Yang is concerned because she can't get in touch with Ruby, Blake reminds her "she's our leader, she can take care of herself" which is more than enough to reassure Yang. When Ruby declares that she is going off to find Pyrrha and Jaune, Weiss immediately joins her; Weiss wants to be by her side. When Ruby declares she has a plan, Weiss says "you always do" and follows unquestioningly. Gone is the demanding Ice Queen who insists she knows better, she's with Ruby 100%.

> You could argue that Pyrrha is a leader on her team because she exemplifies good leadership qualities despite not being the on in charge. You can say that about Weiss and even Ren to a certain extent.

I could and I would. Pyrrha is a leader on her team. Weiss is a leader on her team. Pyrrha and Weiss both help their team leads recognize flaws and grow from them. As stated before, you are not required to be the one in charge to be a good leader. "Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership."