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Reddit mentions of In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection

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Reddit mentions: 25

We found 25 Reddit mentions of In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection. Here are the top ones.

In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection
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Found 25 comments on In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection:

u/DrKC9N · 33 pointsr/CCW

The Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP) is administered by the Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI) in Taylorsville. Here is their website, with all the information you need in order to apply. You must first take the approved Utah training course from a Utah-certified instructor. You can find an instructor here.

A good EDC pistol will vary. My recommendation is to spend some range time renting pistols, preferably along with an experienced but non-judgmental friend, and don't decide to carry a gun until you absolutely fall in love with it (and you know you're accurate with it, too). The right EDC handgun for you will not be the right EDC handgun for someone else. Since you're on a budget, but you will be trusting your life to this gun, spend the 60-80 days you're waiting for your CFP to arrive to save up and have enough cash to get a gun from a reputable manufacturer. Read reviews online and talk to people at the range. You can still get a great carry gun from a quality manufacturer for less than $500.

Before you start to carry, read something that will prepare you mentally and also guide your training (yes, training--dry-fire practice, drawing from concealment, situational awareness, etc). I recommend this book as a starter guide, and this one for exploring the deeper concepts of carrying. Anything by Ayoob is excellent, really.

From your physical description, I'd say you're not looking for anything smaller than a compact gun (subcompact or pocket guns likely won't fit your build or hands). Of course the actual size and grip style of "compact" varies from make to make. Like I said, shoot a bunch of guns and fall in love with one. That way you know that you'll practice with it, and you won't be subject to buyer's remorse.

The Utah-approved CFP course will teach the basics of gun design, but brushes over cleaning. Ask your instructor(s) for details on anything you want more info on. They got into this because they want to educate you. For a good resource on this, check out the Gun Digest Book of Gun Care for handguns.

u/[deleted] · 33 pointsr/guns

The power to defend yourself is having the capability and they state of mind to use it. Your gun is just a tool to help you. You need to get training and prepare yourself if you ever have to use it. A little Ayoob is a good start.

Edit: You'll also want to look into a weapon light and possibly frangible ammunition if you live near other people ( like in an apartment)

u/TOO_DAMN_FAT · 14 pointsr/Roadcam

That was a compelling story! This is crazy:

>Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired.

I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001

I can't remember the details exactly but there is a story where two officers unloaded 12 shots of .38spl into a man and he still fought them. He only stopped after the second hit of 12ga. hit him. Unfortunately there are hundreds of stories like this.

u/Storyforu · 12 pointsr/guns

Upvotes for helping educate folks.

In addition to practical training, you should point Bob & Anne towards more education on the legal ramifications of owning and using firearms. I recommend reading Massad F Ayoob's book

u/JoustingZebra · 5 pointsr/guns

A good way to increase your knowledge base is reading. Here are some books I have read and would recommend.

A. Navy Seal Shooting by Chris Sajnog.

Probably the best book to learn about the fundamentals. Chris covers the mental mastery of shooting better than any other book I am aware of.

B. In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.

If you own guns for self defense I would recommend this book. While this was written in the 1980's it is still relevant today. It is the definitive work on deadly use of force law in the United States.

C. Combat Shooting (Or any other book) by Massad Ayoob

Ayoob has established himself as perhaps the authority on defensive handgun use through his extensive use of case studies.

D. The Book of Two Guns by Tiger Mckee.

This was written primarily revolving around the AR-15 and 1911. However, It's principles are applicable to any fighting rifle or handgun.

u/Stubb · 4 pointsr/guns

Check out Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme for info on the legal use of deadly force. The hardware section is quite dated. Shooting to wound is absolute nonsense. If you're not in fear for your life or that of an innocent party, you have no business shooting the threat.

The vital organs lie surprisingly high in the torso. I was taught to aim for a triangle comprised of the nipples and Adam's apple. This covers the heart and lungs and gives you a chance at the spine. Below that you start hitting the digestive organs, which aren't going to bleed much during an adrenaline dump. Keep in mind that the body is three-dimensional and you need to change your aiming point if your opponent is standing at an angle to you.

The human skull is quite thick, small, designed to deflect blows. It's an exceptionally hard target if both of you are moving.

Keep shooting until the threat is down. This can take quite some doing based on talking to friends who have been there and done that. Shot placement and the threat's mental state can have a tremendous impact. If someone collapses due to blood loss, the horizontal position can lead to reperfusion of the brain and the threat regaining consciousness.

u/akflajdflkajlf · 3 pointsr/guns

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/northcarolina.pdf

Go take a good class from a reputable local instructor and ask questions.

> From what has been implied, but not outright said to me, I can carry hollow points (in VA where I live) and I wanted to confirm this.

Yes.

> Can I also carry them in NC (my parents live there and I travel there semi-regularly)?

Yes.

> When I am driving (in both states) can I have my gun holstered still?

Yes.

> In both states, when carrying, can I have a round chambered?

Yes.

Edit: Your questions also lead me to believe you should read some books/ watch some videos on the use of deadly force. Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" is a good start.

u/smoking_gun · 3 pointsr/CCW

Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" is a really good book about CCW from the private citizen perspective.

It's definitely dated, but a lot of it is still relevant today.

http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376033653&sr=1-1&keywords=in+the+gravest+extreme

u/jabancroft · 3 pointsr/CCW

I'm taking my CHL class this Saturday, and have been doing a ton of reading.

The Ayoob book you linked, The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry is excellent. I also got a lot out of his Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery. Highly recommended. I also picked up In the Gravest Extreme, but haven't read it yet.

Lessons From Armed America by Kathy Jackson and Mark Walters was pretty good. It follows the format "one chapter anecdote, one chapter analyzing the issues from the anecdote". It's less than $5 for the Kindle edition.

More Guns, Less Crime is a very, very detail oriented book wherein John Lott undertakes a statistical analysis of the effect on crime rates of all kinds when states enacted concealed carry laws. Extremely thorough, though unfortunately not so readable unless you're a lawyer, statistician, or savant. Around $5 for the Kindle edition, so not much lost there.

I got Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws by the Oregon Firearms Federation. It's direct and to the point, and not only explains the laws, but has plenty of the author's commentary on what he thinks of them (for better or worse). Obviously no good to you if you don't live in Oregon, but finding something similar for your state would be a good idea.

Hope that helps! I'm obsessively reading all the good books I can on the subject before I buy my first gun and get my CHL, so I'm looking forward to what other recommendations pop up in this thread. Thanks for posting it!

u/Deradius · 3 pointsr/MorbidReality

>I know some people who carry and would gladly go out of their way to find a situation where they can legally shoot someone,

I carry a firearm.

I won't tell you that people like that don't exist. But there are three categories:

  1. Law-abiding armed citizens who just want to keep their loved ones safe, and view the firearm as a safety tool. These comprise the overwhelming majority of CCW license holders; concealed carry licensees break the law at a rate of about 1/5th to 1/10th the rate of the general public. (Citation available upon request.)

  2. People who are all talk. They say a lot of senseless sounding baloney because they think it makes them sound tough. They're an embarrassment, but they don't actually want to hurt anyone.

  3. People who actually want to cause problems and are looking for trouble. They're out there, but I suspect they are the least numerous group among CCW permit holders.

    Please recommend to any ignorant, gun-carrying friends of yours that they read this book; it's an outstanding book on the proper mindset and potential consequences that gun carrying private citizens face.

    Anyone who isn't completely ignorant wants to avoid using their firearm on another person at all costs. Not only because of the moral and psychological ramifications of taking a life, but also because of the practical consequences of same. Months of agony not knowing whether you will end up in prison, financial ruin due to legal fees, and possible complete societal ostracism are all strong possibilities.

u/fluffy_butternut · 3 pointsr/guns

OP Please educate yourself and read THIS book. I don't believe it's the ultimate training guide but it has a very good discussion of mindset. Also THIS book might be even a better starting point.

I get your point about being able to carry but you need to listen to the comments in this thread.

u/GallonOfLube · 2 pointsr/AskReddit

I'd recommend an XD-40 by Springfield Armory. It's light, accurate, and safe yet fast. Safe = two safeties: one on the trigger and one on the handle - no accidental discharges if you're smart and keep your finger out of the guard until you're ready to shoot something, yet no "extra" safety to flip - it's ready to go when you are.

It's also got several of nifty features that indicate the weapon's current status: a chamber indicator (a small piece of metal that pops up top-center of the chamber) to tell you if a round is chambered, and a striker indicator (small silver pin at the back of the slide) that tells you if the weapon is cocked. Both indicators are visual if there's enough light, but also physical so you can check the weapon's status just by feel. Checking the current magazine capacity is easy: the magazines have small holes drilled in the back so you can quickly eject the magazine, glance at the holes to see which are covered by a round, and pop it back in. It's also extremely fast and easy to strip for cleaning. And the price is right: $450-600, depending on the specific model.

If you like those features but need something smaller in size, check out their compacts and sub-compacts. Of course, the shorter the barrel, the shorter the effective range. I'd recommend sticking with a smaller round size. I don't generally notice a significant difference in recoil between a .40 caliber and 9mm round, but .45 has enough kick to seriously reduce your speed and/or accuracy. .40 caliber has a little better stopping power than 9mm, and is still about as easy to handle. A lot of folks are going to tell you how great .45 are, how manly they'll make you feel, etc. Forget all that. If you can shoot 500 rounds through a .45 and your hands don't shake afterward, fine; get a .45. If not, stick to .40. Find a weapon and caliber that work for you, that you can shot quickly, accurately, and don't shy away from. If you are uncomfortable with it in any way, you will not be accurate with your weapon.

Re: "carrying", don't until you know what you're doing. Your idea of trying before you buy is a great one - that's how I chose mine. I found some of the Glocks to be overly large and heavy... and of course there's the Kaboom factor, but this is extremely rare and from what I've heard, only happens with reloaded and/or lead ammunition. In other words, buy all of your ammo new, and stay away from reloads. But back to practice, PRACTICE. Shoot at least once a week for several months before you start to carry a lethal weapon that can be taken from you and used to kill you, others, and commit crimes. And DO NOT stop practicing just because you "know how now". Shoot at least once a month, or stop carrying. Yes, it's that important.

Also, READ THIS BOOK before you ever take your weapon out of your home. It's called In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection, and it's written by Massad F. Ayoob, a firearms instructor (for civilians and police), a police officer (almost four decades, if I remember correctly), and has written a number of books, excellent articles, tutorials and other instruction materials. This book will not teach you how to shoot. It will teach you when to shoot and why to shoot, and what the consequences will be. It isn't a fun read. It won't make you happy about owning a gun. It might even make you a little afraid. But it will teach you what you need to know, or at least, give you a little insight into what you don't know.

u/NeoM5 · 2 pointsr/Conservative

It's all good dood. I learned a new legal term. It's a fascinating case, especially considering I own quite a few guns.

I recently read In the Gravest Extreme which talks about when it is appropriate to use deadly force, so I am very interested in learning the minutia of Florida law, which seems to dictate that Zimmerman getting out of his car with his gun is not relevant. That type of action is usually bad. It's worth a read, and very informative.
http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001

u/aikidont · 2 pointsr/martialarts

I would second Mas Ayoob's stuff. Some of it is a bit dated, but still great stuff especially for the application of deadly force. His book In the Gravest Extreme is sort of considered the de-facto "self defense firearms 101" by most people.

Judicious Use of Deadly Force, and Shoot to Live are on youtube and are very fascinating, especially the Judicious Use of Deadly Force.

I'd also recommend checking out videos by Clint Smith, the operator of Thunder Ranch.

Coming into firearms from martial arts I quickly noticed that the mindset is exactly the same. That is, from a self defense stand point and not a sport fighting stand point. Martial artists who try to learn "not to die" as opposed to "win" have exactly the same mindset as defensive firearms proponents. Notions such as de-escalation, only acting when you are basically justified in stopping another human and possibly removing their right to live and things like that. The whole pride fighting, bar fights, etc have no place there. And just like martial artists, skilled firearms instructors across the board teach situational awareness above everything else and emphasize that the gun is simply a tool in the repertoire of a person seeking to not be a victim.

I really agree with swilkeni in that it is a martial art all its own. Throughout history the martial fields concerned with actual defense (and in this case offense and defense are practically the same thing), save a few small examples, are primarily concerned with the use of weapons. You can see that in any culture's history, from Japan where modern martial arts concerned with unarmed fighting are entirely a modern invention, to Europe and where ever else. People who want to survive learn to use weapons, simply put, and in America we have the right to carry the most effective single weapon a modern human can get: a gun. =D

u/flaz · 1 pointr/progun

> are there alternative guns that could be used that would be less deadly in the hands of a less responsible (maybe even troubled) gun owner.

Again, good question.

The question of "less deadly" guns just doesn't work in practice, so no. In a logical sense, a bullet has to have enough kinetic energy to penetrate skin and therefore potentially kill a person. There is plenty of uncertainty about whether or not it kills after penetration, but there is no sure way to mitigate that possibility.

"Less deadly" in terms of safety features? Again, we need it to work, guaranteed, when we need it. When we send a bullet for the purpose it is designed for -- stopping a threat -- it is by nature deadly. There is no such thing as a bullet with butterfly wings.

Let's try a quick choose-your-own-adventure to explore this concept: It's the middle of the night, you're startled awake, and trembling with fear because someone just busted a window into your house. They're on drugs, and they need money for more drugs. Doesn't matter if you get killed. Doesn't matter how they do it. You are in their way, and if they find you, they will kill you. Do you try to talk them out of it? Do you want to risk dying by doing that? They're trying to kill you, and they're high on drugs. In your house. You're dead after the first few words come out of your mouth. Do you want to try to taser them? You miss, you die. You hit and they go right through it because, again, they're on drugs. You die. Pepper spray? They're unfazed on drugs. Dead. Do you want a single-shot, small caliber gun so you can just warn them with a bee sting? Again, you're dead, assuming you even hit them with that one shot. Do you want something with a bunch of safeties on it? Too late to fiddle with the safeties. You're dead. Do you choose the gun with a limited capacity magazine, government approved usage for inside-the-home-defense? You shoot two rounds into your TV first because you are stumbling and not-quite-awake yet. One more round wizzes by the bad guy's ear, and the last two rounds hit him in his belly and left leg. He keeps going, because he's on drugs. He has a baseball bat that doesn't run out of ammunition and he bludgeons you to death in front of your TV. Final option, you pick up your rapid firing, high capacity magazine semi-automatic rifle, and shoot until the bad guy stops coming at you. There is a lot of blood splattered everywhere. You pick up your phone, hands trembling, heart pounding out of your chest, and you dial 911 to report that there is an intruder in your house, and he is currently unconscious, on the floor, in front of your TV.

The moral of the story is: When you don't know what the threat will be, you need to have at least as much, if not more firepower available to you than the bad guy might possibly have. That's why we have semi-automatic rifles with so-called "high capacity magazines".

I would highly recommend you read In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob to get a better understanding of why we choose appropriate tools for the task of personal protection.

u/IJustWantToShoot · 1 pointr/CCW

> I want to get my CCW, and I really enjoy shooting at the range, but I'm not sure if I'd actually carry all that often. It seems like an immense responsibility knowing that I'd have a tool that could literally end a life strapped to me, as well as that somebody could disarm/steal it from me.

Good. You should be thinking about this. You should be thinking twice before considering carrying or firing. Go read In the Gravest Extreme and consider carefully if you want that responsibility. And then, if you do, start practicing. Practice carrying. Practice shooting, both at the range and, if possible, at some defensive shooting course. Most defensive shooting situations aren't range-style shooting; they're "Oh, shit! I'd better pull and get this guy who's <3 yards away from me"-style shooting. It's fast, it's stressful, and it's not at all what most people practice. Go learn about the laws in your state, and memorize them. If your state says that "no guns" signs have the force of law, consider carefully what you plan to do in such a situation. Leave your gun in the car? Okay, do you have a way to lock it up out of sight? Bring it with you? Okay, better make sure it's concealed deep, and that you're absolutely okay with getting arrested and charged with an unlawfully-carried weapon. Avoid the business entirely? Okay; make sure you're aware of any political/familial ramifications this may have with the people you're with. Etc. Etc.

> I'm also not sure if I could even conceal the gun I want to buy (Glock 19) without it being painfully obvious.

Concealing most handguns is fairly straightforward, and while I don't have specific experience with the Glock 19, others in this thread have said it isn't a problem. Worst-case scenario, you could always get an easier-concealed gun. Subscribe to /r/gundeals - I see concealable handguns on sale for cheap all the time.

> I'd like to have the license (as well as learn from the class you need to take) for the off occasion I'm going somewhere I'd feel safer carrying. Thoughts?

Being comfortable carrying is really more about repetition and familiarity than just taking a class and suddenly being comfortable with it. You have a lot to learn and it's going to take time. Some of it is physical (the aforementioned range time and practical application classes) and some of it is mental (reading, getting yourself in the right mindset, learning to avoid conflict unless there's no other way, etc.), but there's a lot there. Plan for that, and you'll be all right. I mean it. I know it sounds like a brush-off: "Oh, you'll be fine." But seriously; it really is just getting used to a few things.

u/BloomyThrowAway · 1 pointr/bloomington

I'm of the opinion that I would rather not have people know if I'm armed if I were to carry my weapon. If I ever have to use my gun, it's only because I've exhausted all other opinions. I rather have it hidden so who ever I'm dealing with isn't put into a heightened state of mind by seeing my weapon.

(An excellent book on this is In the Gravest Extreme. It's a pro-gun book, but isn't gun nut. It argues that your firearm should always be the last thing you use in a dangerous confortation in public.

Then again, I'm blessed to live in an area that is safe enough that I don't need to signal to others that I can defend myself.

u/trickygringo · 1 pointr/PublicFreakout

This sounds exactly like what you are told in the book, In the Gravest Extreme.

https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001

Kids playing with dart guns is not the gravest extreme.

u/MAE1234 · 1 pointr/guns

Found this to be a great read when starting to carry. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001 it's more for mental awareness and handling a firearm than physical technique. It's a bit outdated but easy to get through. You could probably find a PDF as well.

u/michaelhoff · 1 pointr/guns

If you haven't heard of Massad Ayoob, he has a book that should be required reading for gun owners.

u/southernbeaumont · 1 pointr/LifeProTips

Read a book.

http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001

This one is called In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.

He is an unusual author in that he is at once a firearms expert and trainer, a police officer who has served as a prosecutor and an expert witness in numerous trials, and a gun writer who knows the capabilities of various cartridges in detail.

Secondarily, study the Box of Truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com

The site contains numerous real-world tests of ammunition vs various materials, and should be taken as factual info on what cartridges work best in what situations.

u/aleandwhores · 1 pointr/CCW

http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323049320&sr=1-3


http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Concealed-Carry/dp/0896896110/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323049320&sr=1-1



i also recommend these books to help you figure CCW out. However I hope you will take my last bit of advice to heart.

Do not kid yourself about carrying a large gun if you have the slightest doubt that you wont do it. I personally have a snub nose and a g30 for when I don't feel like carrying my 21. And it happens quite a bit. Just going to the gas station for a pop can quickly turn bad. But Im not going to spend 10 minuets gearing up for an 8 minuet trip. I know that, and Im ok with it. It takes ALOT of personal discipline to carry such a big gun. Its uncomfortable at times, its harder to travel, it limits the wardrobe, it can make hugs very awkward if your not used to it, etc. Please dont waste your money on a gun that you wont carry. By all means get the 30. I own one, they're great! You can LEARN to overcome its difficulties and short comings much easier than you can learn to always put on your beast no matter what.


let me know if you have any questions comments or concerns

Some additional free sources of info are

defensivecarry.com and ar15.com under handguns and carry issues.

u/mk2ja · 1 pointr/CCW

Maybe "lifestyle" can be interpreted in different ways; carrying a gun does require a different, more serious, "mindset" than simply carrying a phone, and it deserves more careful consideration about how to carry it than how you decide to carry your phone.

People are different, but I'll share from my personal experience. When I was coming of age, I had that typical attitude of a young, single man, always thinking I was right, that I would always win, that nobody could touch me, and if anybody tried anything—BOOM!—I'd take care of them. I was treating it irresponsibly, like a casual fling. And that's the wrong attitude for a person carrying around the power of life and death.

By reading Boatman's essay and Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme, I learned the seriousness of the matter and how I needed to fix my attitude towards carrying. I needed to make changes to my mindset and to my habits. The decision to start carrying a gun led me to really actually "grow up" and stop acting like a kid.

Now married, I can barely convince my wife to come to the range with me, let alone convince her to change her mindset or habits. As you suggest, it is far too much to ask everybody to start out by upending their lifestyle for the sake of carrying a gun. But, in the long term, I think the responsible carrier eventually realizes that he has made changes. And so, I offered the quote to the OP as food for thought: while he shouldn't go tell his wife, "Hey, this is so important that you need to change your entire wardrobe," when she asks for help or expresses frustrations with carrying, he may think about suggesting different types of clothing.