Reddit mentions of Klipsch R-14M 4-Inch Reference Bookshelf Speakers (Pair, Black)

Seriously check out /r/hometheater

But be warned, that place can be dangerous.

Here is my current set up:

AVR : Sony 7.2

Center : Klipsch RP-250C

Fronts : Klipsch R-14M

Rears : Klipsch R-14S

Sub : Bic America 12

I deff spent less than $1000 and I love my set up. One thing that saved me a lot of money was buying open box on Ebay from an authorized seller. The other nice thing about piecing it together like this is that you can very easily upgrade one set of speakers over time.

Look used first.

New:

• 4" Micca MB42X $80.
  
• 4" Pioneer SP-BS22-LR $100.
  
• 5.25" Sony SSCS5 $120 with super tweeter.
  
• 5.25" Inifinty Reference 152 $140 refurbished.
  
  DIY: 5" C-Notes $100, great starter DIY speaker. Add around $50 for tools and supplies depending on options and finish. Kits includes pre-cut cabinets. Glue, solder, paint, assemble. Comparable to built speakers costing twice as much.
  
  Edit, adding per ctfromman
  
  
• 6.5" BIC Venturi DV62si $120
  
• 4" Klipsch R-14M $116

You need a receiver to easily switch. $170 will get you a basic receiver. That leaves $330, let's call it $300 so you have room for speaker wire, subwoofer cables, etc. I assume you want a 5.1? Or do you want a better 2.1 where you can upgrade in the future?

If a 5.1:

$130 12" subwoofer (if that's too large for your space, let me know)
2x$60 Dayton B652-Airs for front/back
$30 matching center

If a 3.1:

Same subwoofer
$90 Micca MB42X
$80 matching center

If a 2.1:

Same subwoofer
$150 Klipch R-14's (could also get the $200 RB-51 II's or the BIC 350's if you don't allocate a budget for wires and cables)

Here are some thoughts

1. To get louder you either need more power or more efficient speakers. The B652's list at 87db and the T652's list at 88dB. You're not going to see too much more volume according to the specs. I just don't know that it's worth your money.
   
   
2. You could get a TriTrix kit as I've heard good things about them. However, I think you'll be in the same boat. I don't know how much more efficient they will be.
   
   
3. If you want to get louder I would look at getting more more efficient bookshelf speakers. I would look at these.
   
   

• Klipsch RB-10 $90 - 90dB so they will be a good bit louder than the current B652. They are small but since you have a sub that won't matter. Just be sure to adjust the xover on the sub to the correctly level. Make sure you like the sound of a horn tweeter.
  
  
• Klipsch R-14M $130 - 90dB and these will go a bit lower than the above speakers. These also have a horn tweeter so you might want to take a trip to BB to see if you like the way they sound.
  
  
• BIC DV62 $120 - 90dB Larger book that will reach lower than the Daytons.
  
  
• Cambridge SX50 $140 - 90dB smaller speakers that will probably sound great with the sub.

I personally don't know much about the Micca MB42, but the Klipsch R-15M is $187 right now. the Klipsch R-14M is $170. I really like the sound of the Klipsch R-15M.

Denon AVR-S530BT or 540BT

And I would spend the remaining on a good pair of bookshelves vs an ok pair of floorstanders personally. The T50's specifically are meh at best.

Klipsch R15M's - great for movies and games

Klipsch R14M's - can get a sub with these for how cheap they are

Wavecrest HVL-1 - just plain good speakers

Emotiva B1 - little more but very worth it. One of the best sounding speakers for the price new.

How do you like those speakers? I was thinking about buying myself a pair. They're the Klipsch R-14M's right?

For under $100?


https://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-T15-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B002RJLHB8/ref=sxin_3_osp48-e0ee21c7_cov?ascsubtag=e0ee21c7-7c6d-4572-84a0-f105bfd96edc&creativeASIN=B002RJLHB8&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osp.e0ee21c7-7c6d-4572-84a0-f105bfd96edc&cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_wn=osp-search&keywords=Polk+speakers&linkCode=oas&pd_rd_i=B002RJLHB8&pd_rd_r=0080b75e-794a-4003-9e85-58187e43ea5b&pd_rd_w=dqsMZ&pd_rd_wg=rbEhp&pf_rd_p=a23a388c-add5-49df-b293-a31ade89c6bf&pf_rd_r=GXAQKVCP5CHDTX38S4BD&qid=1574031515&tag=spyonsite-20


If you wanna spend a touch more for a bit more oomph,


https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=sr_1_5?crid=9AXOZYE4XFEI&keywords=klipsch+bookshelf+speakers&qid=1574031679&s=electronics&sprefix=Klipsh+bookshelf+speakers%2Celectronics%2C169&sr=1-5

I just picked up a pair of Klipsch R14m while they are on sale and they play metal damn good. Bass is a little lacking, but for the price you will not find a better speaker in construction or sound production in my opinion.

Get the mb42x with either this:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-120-class-t-mini-amplifier-60-wpc--300-3800

Or this:
https://www.amazon.com/SMSL-SA-60-black-Digital-Amplifier/dp/B00PA3ECGK


Also consider these Klipsch speakers instead of the Miccas:
https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M

Thank you. Same deal on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M

So, just for fun I tried to price out a decent setup for ~$1k. Basically, you'd have to buy used/refurb to get a good value at that price point, at least right now. If you can wait, check out slickdeals and local retailers regularly to try to get blowout prices--it does happen with regularity.

Here's my pass at a starter 5.1 setup:

• Receiver: YAMAHA RX-V583 (refurb) for $270
  
• Left/Right speakers: Klipsch R-610F (used) for $178 ($89 x2)
  
• Center speaker: Klipsch R-52C (used) for $199
  
• Surrounds: Klipsch R-14M (new) for $138
  
• Subwoofer: BIC F12 (new) for $210
  
• TOTAL: $995 pre-tax
  
  That excludes stands/mounts, speaker wire, shelves, etc. Also, this is just going off of quick reviews--I have no personal experience with any of this equipment.
  
  In terms of placement, like AverageJoe said, I would:
  
  

• Remove the cubbies and globe
  
• Place the right speaker where the globe is with the left to match
  
• To make use of the space behind the left speaker, I might consider placing the receiver/media stuff there, and either put the center on a stand or possibly wall mount it
  
• I might consider getting an articulating TV mount to more easily position your TV relative to your speakers

So you already have klipsch bookshelves, center, AND subwoofer? That's a good start.

Scour craigslist and Facebook marketplace for a reciever. People are always getting rid of them for cheap. If you're on a tight budget just find a newer one that has HDMI.

If youd rather new/refurb:

Get a Denon AVR-530BT from accessories4less for $150.

That leaves you $100 for good bookshelf speakers.

Since you have all klipsch, why not stick with them, Klipsch R-14M for $107.

There you'd have a complete 5.1, and it wouldn't sound too bad at all.

[Technical Pro IA1200 Slender integrated amp puts out about 30 watts times 2 class A/B which will sound better at higher volumes than a class "D" amp] (https://www.amazon.com/Technical-Pro-IA1200-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B01LBXJ5A0/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=IA1200&qid=1558203431&s=electronics&sr=1-1-catcorr)

Also has 3.5mm headphone and input jacks, Bass/treble knobs and 4-5 preset loudness contours.

Klipsch R14 M much better sounding and efficent and will play louder than the micca

They will also put put more bass than the little micca.

I wouldn't pick up one of those amps. One of the features for one of them is that they don't spark when plugging power in.

For an amp, try this Micca Origain.

If you have the room, a receiver might be better for you. This Yamaha R-S202 would work well, but only works with 8 ohm speakers.

For speakers, you have a few options.

Klipsch R-14M

Pioneer SP-BS22-LR(6 ohm)

The Micca MB42X when they come back in stock.

Also, if you can build them, C-Note Speaker Kit. These will be better than any other cheap speaker you can find new. Will need around $50-100 in tools to build them.

As far as cheap subs go, this Dayton Audio SUB-1000 might be your best bet.

Parts Express coupon codes:

SSVTEN $10 off $100

CJ2FIVE $25 off $250

Hello, which speakers should I buy for my SO who build his PC and the only thing missing are some speakers? (Mainly used for gaming) The list includes the finalist based on suggestions:

-Klipsch R-14M https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
-Edifier R1700BT https://www.amazon.com/Edifier-R1700BT-Bluetooth-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B016PATXSI/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1549288911&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=Edifier+R1700BT&psc=1
-Micca PB42X https://smile.amazon.com/Micca-PB42X-Powered-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00NXAEPDC
-Logitech G560 https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-LIGHTSYNC-Gaming-Speakers-Lighting/dp/B07B2WLS17/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549291982&sr=8-1&keywords=g560+logitech+speakers


​

Klipsch RM14 speakers are on sale

For a little more, get the RM15 pair

both could go lower when Prime Day starts? but decent sales, especially on the RM15 which are at their historic low price right now.


both of these are passive, you'll need something to drive them

That’s gonna be tight but here is one setup. I would do a receiver and two bookshelves and maybe a sub and slowly build the system up. But if you must...

Receiver: $129 Denon S530bt

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrs530bt/denon-avr-s530bt-5.2-ch-x-70-watts-bluetooth-a/v-receiver/1.html

Speakers: $299 Energy Take 5.1

Energy 5.1 Take Classic Home Theater System (Set of Six, Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001202C44/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Uff5Ab4KFSVP9


Here are some decent bookshelves and sub to be used with the above receiver: $165

Klipsch R-14M 4-Inch Reference Bookshelf Speakers (Pair, Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Hof5Ab9WCGEA2

Subwoofer: $212 Bic F12

BIC America F12 12-Inch 475-Watt Front Firing Powered Subwoofer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015A8Y5M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_puf5AbGEX1XGJ

If 16" is too high you are going to have a difficult time finding truly good speakers. As alternatives I'd go with:

12" tall: http://www.wavecrestaudio.com/products/hvl-1-two-way-loudspeaker-pair

9.5" tall: http://smile.amazon.com/Micca-Surround-Bookshelf-Speaker-MB42X/dp/B00E7H8GG2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1464100553&sr=8-2&keywords=micca

Both are superior to the other commonly available choices like the Polks or Pioneers. Another choice would be Klipsch although they tend to be way, way too bright/harsh for me: http://smile.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=sr_1_11?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1464100411&sr=1-11&keywords=bookshelf+speakers

The aforementioned Ascend Acoustics speakers, while very good, are also going to be too large. The Emp Tek r5bi comes in at 12.75" so it's also a potential contender and a very good one.

I have a pair of Klipsch R-14M bookshelf speakers paired with a Sony SACS9 10" sub, would the JBLs be an upgrade over the Klipsch speakers I use? I use a Schiit Modi as my source, would I be able to pair the JBLs with my subwoofer?

I assume the amplifiers in the JBLs are better than the small 20w/ch stereo amp I use for my passive speakers.

I got Klipsh R-14Ms and they work great, granted you have to get an amplifier and then banana plugs and speaker wire, which is easier than you think. All in all, it can be quite an adventure.

A different strategy would be to get an additional set of 8 ohm speakers and wire them in parallel so that you are running 4 ohms on each side. Just use a 12 volt (high amp) power supply. It seems counter-intuitive that Hifiberry is recommending lower voltage for lower ohms. I think they don't want it to overheat or something.

​

I have these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00MGQAH2M - I got mine for $85, but you can still get them for around $100.

​

They are fairly efficient too.

​

The idea here is to have speakers near each of your listening positions. There may be a font-back balance issue - but I am guessing that wiring a pot on each side could solve that. Left/right you fix via DSP (like volume too).

​

Question: once (and if) the Hifiberry amp dies, how are you going to get audio out of your Raspberry? Do you have a headphone jack or preouts somewhere already? There's a better way to do this if you have those, BTW.

​

If you just want a beater amp that will likely never die - get this - I have one and it seems pretty good: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076P2VS9H/

Yeah so don't even go by digital vs vinyl. Not a straight comparison since they're mastered differently.

Now, if the record playing through your KLH speakers isn't much better than a bluetooth speaker, then I'd say it's time for new speakers. I know JBL can make great stuff but a pair of bookshelf speakers shouldn't be worse than a BT speaker. Since you've already got a receiver, going with some new passive bookshelf speakers will be a bit more affordable. Something like Klipsch's R-14M's for $150 or the bigger R-15M's for about $172 would sound pretty good. Or you can go with the powered version (it's usually around $350 so wait for a better price) and ditch the receiver for a more compact rig. The powered R-15PM's have a built-in phono preamp, optical input, bluetooth, and AUX input with a remote for volume and source switching. It also has a port for a sub in case you feel like adding one in the future.

Also, have you considered using a headphone amp for personal listening? Grab a Schiit Magni for $99 and pair it with a nice set of ATHM50's or DT 770's.

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=pd_lpo_23_tr_t_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=T669WPMX028P9FSVKC9M

Get these, you won't beat it for the price.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think forgoing the rear speakers would probably be a good move here -- it just seems like it's not worth it for the price. Do receivers exist without all the bells and whistles, or even a bluray player? I just really need something that will drive the speakers and I can piper audio to from the TV.

On a side note, this Klipsch set seems to be well regarded and is super cheap!

I think someone else mentioned them, but these are not efficient speakers. These are only 85db. (Sensitivity 85dB 1W/1M). These should be higher, 89db or more.
Klipsch makes good speakers with high sensitivity. Here is one example, for $99, black friday special I guess.

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=pd_lpo_23_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=F54Q82E330RSYB5F0RK8

I just got a scarlett solo and a set of klischp r-14m's and i was wondering what kind of speaker wire i need to hook it all up. the scarlett solo has a left and right line out, but the speakers have 2 cable connections each, so i'm unsure how to make this work

You're welcome. That cable is the same one I use in my system. You also picked a better sub, nice work.

I recommend [these](Klipsch R-14M 4-Inch Reference Bookshelf Speakers (Pair, Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_XK4SybR0YYM0Y) speakers. I have them myself.

A few things I'm wondering:

Isn't the monitor underwhelming for a 1080 Ti?

You want a bequiet case and a Snow Silent PSU, which means you value quiet. Then why are you getting several noisy HDDs? Shouldn't you minimize their number? Wouldn't 2x8TB be fine?

The speakers are fine but you should know that a big part of the price is for RGB & Software. If you want good sound get something like a Klipsch R-14M speakers + SMSL SA50 amp.

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509678046&sr=8-1&keywords=klipsch+r14

Do these work with Audiotechnica LP120? Noob here looking for speakers for family member. Thanks!

Also take a look at the Klipsch R-14M they're on a great sale right now for $99

any way to get a decent center for these for under $150?

more for these instead of the r-15s

The Mod Team decided to place a more structured post on Black Friday deals. A lot of people are already invested in this thread so I will just sticky this here. Deals at some of the major retailers are likely to come and go often so it will be impossible to have this be fully accurate 100% of the time. If you have any deals you want to see in this sticky post feels free to message me(I WILL miss plenty of deals), otherwise you are still free to post below of course. Lastly, these are just good deals off of MSRP and I will generally post regardless of whatever personal thoughts I have on X, Y, or Z product. I will shortly add a few more categories beyond speakers.

Speakers:

Pioneer BS22 for $58 at Frys if you have a coupon code

Sony SSCS5 for $73 a PAIR on Amazon

Klipsch R-14M for $99 a PAIR on Amazon, Klipsch R-15M for $125 a PAIR on Amazon and Best Buy

Jamo C-103 for $129 a PAIR at Amazon KILLER Deal

Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf for $150 a PAIR on Amazon and Fluance. Keep watch for $99.

JBL LSR305 for $99 EACH on Amazon. At BH Photo same price but free isolation pads and no taxes outside of New York!

ELAC Debut B4 for $130 a PAIR on Amazon and ELAC B6 for $200 a PAIR on Amazon

Kef Q100 for $250 a PAIR from KefDirect

ELAC UB5 for $350 a PAIR on Amazon

Monolith K-BAS $180 EACH from Monoprice

Focal Super Bird for $250 a PAIR (BOGO) on Accessories4Les

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170SE for $330 a PAIR from Ascend and CMT-340SE for $548 a PAIR from Ascend

HSU CCB-8 Coaxial Speakers starting at $420 EACH or $764 a PAIR from HSU Research

JBL Studio 590 for $475 EACH direct from Harman Ebay. KILLER deal on these towers.

KEF LS50 for $999 a PAIR on Amazon and KEF Direct

Subwoofers:

BIC Acoustech PL-200 II for $250 from Amazon

SVS SB12-NSD for $400 from SVS Sound

SVS PB12-NSD for $500 from SVS Sound

Rythmik L12 for $509 from Ascend Acoustics and Rythmik Audio

HSU VTF-2 MK5 for $574 from HSU Research

Receivers/Amplifiers:

Sony STRDH130 Stereo Receiver for $85 on Amazon and Newegg

Denon AVR-S530BT refurb for $150 from Accessories4Less. Cheapest HDR-ready receiver you'll find out there.

Really you should check Accessories4Less.com if you're fine with good deals on Refurbished equipment.

Source Devices:
HIFIMAN MegaMini High-Res Music Player for $99 from HifiMan

Audio Technica LP-120 Turntable for $229 on Amazon

Headphones:

Audio Technica MSR7 for $150 on Amazon

HifiMan HE400i for $219 from HifiMan

Monolith M560 for $150 from Monoprice and Monolith M1060 for $250 from Monoprice

Sites to Look At Outside of the typical Walmart, Best Buy, and Amazon here are some sites worth checking out for Black Friday deals:

RBH.com (Specifically their sales page is a bit of a goldmine)

Monoprice.com

KEFdirect.com (if you want to “evade” sales tax and check out the whole lineup)

Accessories4Less.com

AcousticSoundDesign.com (Website ain’t the nicest but some great packages)

There are also some Klipsch deals for those who like their sound. These are their bookshelf speakers 50% off. I know people usually hate on Klipsch as far as value for the money, but I think I’ve read that at these prices they may be a great value for the money.
R-15M for $124 on Amazon or Best Buy
R-14M for $99 on Amazon

Current setup...

• FiiO D3 DAC
  
• Onkyo TX-910 receiver
  
• Bose Model 21 bookshelf speakers
  
• Celestion CS135 passive sub woofer
  Would like to upgrade the bookshelf speakers, preferably passive, looking in the 4-5" range. Listen to everything from dubstep, miami bass, classical, hip-hop, adult contemporary...
  
  I had some Klipsch Promedia 2.1's but they died after 2 years. They were ok, but want something with better sound, my current setup has been pulled out of storage from the late 90s ;)
  
  I would like to spend in the $200-300 range for a pair.
  
  **EDIT: These are some that i'm currently looking at:
  Fluance Signature Series HiFi Two-way Bookshelf
  Klipsch R-14M
  Elac B4
  
  

From All the Speakers, what are the best:

1- https://www.amazon.es/Klipsch-R-14M-II-Equipo-altavoces-color/dp/B00MGQAH2M?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAIO5XGFZDXTA6STSQ&tag=tropicalpricees-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00MGQAH2M

2- https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B07GH5XHZK/?coliid=I1ILJKPRXK3EIW&colid=1IJH8NX2PPLYR&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

3- https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07JBD5LJ6/?coliid=I3JJ2EBU6HL5NG&colid=18HA3UGD9TQH&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

4- https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0743D52DH/ref=psdc_199618031_t3_B07JBD5LJ6

5- https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LVWWZS0/?coliid=I2WX0Z6QB4WM3L&colid=18HA3UGD9TQH&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

6- https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B076KC6TSM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?smid=ABV9J41D2VYA9&th=1

7- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YAF0KBK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=AU83DD5TFNLRF&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M?pldnSite=1

Were these the 50% off you were talking about? That's a great deal for Klipsch, I guess the only concern would be grabbing the center later which is gonna be around $200 right?

Sorry for the delay.. I forgot to reply.

I'm sure you already got the adapter and cable. The adapter is perfect and the cable might be OK. I would look for one that is only for audio (red and white connectors only, not the yellow video cable.) This one would be good - https://www.amazon.com/Choseal-3-5mm-Audio-Adapter-Cable/dp/B00A7J1ANA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1483627337&sr=8-4&keywords=rca+audio+to+3.5mm

With your budget in mind I highly recommend the $180 U-Turn Orbit Basic turntable. I have one that I got with an upgraded cartridge (Grado Black) and it is a superb table. https://uturnaudio.com/collections/all

Speakers... hmmm... That's tougher. Used ones on Craiglist can be great. Just be sure that the foam surrounds are in good shape (this is the foam ring around each driver) and check some online reviews. For new speakers, I think these look like a great option for the price - https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-R-14M-Reference-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=sr_1_1?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1483627753&sr=1-1&keywords=bookshelf+speakers&refinements=p_89%3AKlipsch

You definitely can get excellent sound for $350, or less. It's just a matter of whether they integrate "smart features" or not. I'll take a pair of bookshelf speakers with Bluetooth over a smart speaker that sounds good but isn't smart at all. Here's an example for less than $350. Yes, I'm aware it's not a compact package, but are you taking your homepod somewhere?

Yamaha Stereo Bluetooth Receiver:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EMQI2CU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_g.DEAbBSNWZQM

Polk (Total $250):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RJLHB8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_K9DEAbANX73G8

Klipsch (Total $350): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MGQAH2M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_ZvFEAbVA0SGCQ

Bonus: Chromecast Audio
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/google-chromecast-audio-black/4532100.p?skuId=4532100&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=6465e409-54ed-4859-8101-a7005b7edd1e&ksprof_id=16&ksaffcode=pg265795&ksdevice=m&lsft=ref:212,loc:2