Reddit mentions of Beyond Winning: Negotiating to Create Value in Deals and Disputes

> As I said, I had all jobs in the relationship. Looking good, having sex all the time

(in response to, “Besides sex, which includes looks ...”)

> earning money

Same relationship one has with a business partner. That’s not something most men want or care about. Unless that’s something this particular guy actually cared about and valued greatly, that’s not something that was done for him just because you want to feel like it was something you were doing for him. The value is not determined by the POV of the cost of the giver, but by the POV of the value in the hands of the receiver.

> organizing dates, paying for dates, taking care of the transportation, taking care of the romance

Again, not something men care about. We’ll do that for you, not for us. You being happy (the ends) is something we care about. But the dates and romance (the means), not so much. Again, not something that was done for him, even though, no doubt, you did in fact do much of it.

> supporting him emotionally, helping him when he needed help with stuff

So, like a therapist and handyman. Same points as making money above. Not really a bargained for benefit most men are looking for from women. Again, no doubt you actually did all these things and expended all this time and effort. But, “cost/benefit” and “efficiency” principles. You can’t be dumping 90% of your time and energy onto things that make less than a 5% difference for the person on the receiving end of all your time and energy ... and then feeling like, “But I do so much for you!”

That’s like a guy being like, “But I go to the gym 12+ hours a week, have 8-10% bf%, dress well for you, I’m on Cialis and Cypionate and am horny for you all the time and 100% ready and willing to have sex whenever you want and willing to initiate all the time.”

That’s nice. But what about planning for a wedding? Or a vacation? Or getting a nice house? Or the latest iPhone or MacBook? Or going out on a nice date somewhere? Or doing something for me (besides sex) that’s going to make me feel appreciated, loved and cared about ... (drumroll) ... as a woman? Or helping out with the work involved in taking care of a home? Or listening to me and being an emotional tampon like my girlfriends ... they care about my emotional needs as a woman, surely my man cares as much about the same as my girlfriends do? Or helping me with other things I need help with (acts of service)?

> The guy didn't do anything.

No criticism, judgment or anything negative from my end towards you. Just saying this from a place of wanting to help another human being:

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Winning-Negotiating-Create-Disputes/dp/0674012313/ref=rtpb_of_7?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0674012313&pd_rd_r=5f232b8f-e768-4e93-bf5c-ac76858d8b16&pd_rd_w=qHdyN&pd_rd_wg=ndjWP&pf_rd_p=e63cdf88-70f7-45e9-a935-867bec475cac&pf_rd_r=AC8BNFZBAQS13CPVGJJY&psc=1&refRID=PP0YH424YPG54TTQD3H4

https://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-Strategies-Reasonable/dp/0143036971/ref=pd_aw_fbt_14_img_3/134-7622501-1387826?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0143036971&pd_rd_r=8ca3a607-9c32-4911-937b-849a8761702d&pd_rd_w=b8Hxy&pd_rd_wg=ss7u6&pf_rd_p=3ecc74bd-d08f-44bd-96f3-d0c2b89f563a&pf_rd_r=AJPTASB84M6ENTSSZ69V&psc=1&refRID=AJPTASB84M6ENTSSZ69V

It’s irrelevant what the other person is getting in a relationship. It’s not a competition, although that’s always the default “woe to me” theme whenever anyone talks about these situations. The real issue is not that he got so much, or that he got so much more than you. The real issue is that you did not get the utility and value that you wanted from him, not just conventionally or generally, but specifically meaningful and valuable to you as a woman and as the individual you are. That was the issue, not all this other stuff.

> I was saying women can be in relationships where ... the guy offers nothing and we're still happy.

O.o

So, “nothing” makes you happy?

> It sounds like you just think highly of men and lowly of women

No. That’s what it sounds like ... to you ... or to women who read what I wrote and who also have some chip on their shoulder.

> so I want to hear what you think of a relationship where the woman does everything (all of her "jobs" and more) and the guy does nothing.

I’m wondering, what self-esteem issues does this woman have that makes her feel like she doesn’t deserve to want certain things for herself as a woman in this relationship, and has hypnotized herself and buried herself in mountains of rationalizations until she’s successfully convinced herself that she really is perfectly happy with “nothing” (which, in this context, is a fancy way of saying that the only emotional “pleasure” she derived from relationships is by playing the role of a martyr and relishing in self-pity or masturbating to a sense of self-sacrifice).

> Do you just refuse to acknowledge the existence of such relationships because they do not corroborate your worldview that men have systematically more to offer than women do?

Not at all. I handle divorces, and most of my divorce clients are women, and most of these cases are IDV and involve elements of domestic violence.

I’ve had domestic violence victims driven to court ... by their husband ... only to tell the judge that she wants to discontinue the action for divorce ... because her husband wants her to discontinue the action for divorce. Nothing the judge and I can do if the plaintiff doesn’t want to proceed with a divorce.

Respectfully, with zero anger or negative feelings towards you on this end, because I get your reaction all the time ... be mindful of your own assumptions about “men” and what you may be projecting onto what I wrote. Common theme on this subreddit. Women read something written by a man, and even the most intelligent and most jaded by life women give in to the automatic knee-jerk reflex to feel like, “Oh, great, another MGTOW / RP / all men are amazing and all women are evil asshole.”

Not at all the point or purpose of what I said.