Reddit mentions of Eternal Covenant: How the Trinity Reshapes Covenant Theology

Hello fellow ENTJ human being with unrealized emotional needs,

First off, don't feel pressured to reply quickly because I do. There isn't much to do here as of late, so that's why I always kick off my replies promptly. Not that any of this correspondence should come with pressure or expectation anyway, but looking back at the monolith of text from our messages on this thread, it looks like this has turned into something unlikely on Reddit. Not really sure how to label it. It's like email and Reddit got together for a party.

> Serious Question: Where are the sixteen parts? :)

Serious answer: who said there were sixteen parts? Perhaps I would have segmented my reply artificially and at random. Or maybe I would have employed a Hollywood cliffhanger just before I was about to finish every really deep thought. Or maybe I would have conjured a sixteen word sentence and replied one word at a time. Perhaps an amalgamation of the above! ... if I wanted to.

But since I wrote everything above and below this sentence and can't submit because it's too long, I'm going to have to play your little game anyway. But if this were a battle of wills, I'd win. This is a technicality. :P

> I am sure the experience would have been magnified if I were to have actually heard this sermon at a church - so I can definitely imagine what a profound experience it must have been for you.

I thought it was just going to be an ordinary (which is an elevated term when I use it for my old church) Sunday sermon. It was like watching a really well produced film of which I had never seen a preview. And afterward, amidst all the mental and spiritual processing, I was constantly asking myself, "What just happened?"

> Growing up in church, the saying - Christ died for my sins - caused me to feel sorry, guilty, and a little like a ball and chain obligation.

Completely! Again, I felt exactly the same way.

> I think it should go under Christianity 101. I wonder what the Orthodox perspective on this is...which is why I asked if your pastor has published a book or essay on it.

I agree, it absolutely should! I played it at my last study group. Good things. Dan did mention early on in the message it's commonly referred to as the eternal covenant. I know Calvinists believe this. And even (shudder) Church of Christ (who are a different bunch than I believe you have in Canada -- ours have questionable theology).

I just did a Google search and found this entry on CARM (which I have never heard of before but am now bookmarking for further investigation), this book on Amazon of which the author is someone I am unfamiliar with, this reformed Catholic entry which seems to kind of dismiss it, and this promising video by R.C. Sproul which I look forward to watching after I send this to you!

Looks like the theology we are talking about really came to light in the reformed churches, and the orthodox ones may not have such a broad view of things. But I dunno. I do have a few friends I can bounce this off of though if you're interested to get their perspectives!

>... the first time I listened to the sermon, I was hungry for more...

So. Was. I. But the satiety is in the slow absorption and God's timing.

> Does that mean people who were born in Christian families but chose to leave the religion are also included, even against their will? And does that mean that Christians can sin (consciously or unconsciously) and still remain among the chosen? What are the parameters? Or perhaps "God's Elect" are only those true believers who have the Holy Spirit and experience a deeper level of faith?

Excellent questions; and questions which have seen significant discussion over the ages by scores of theologians no doubt. Many of my friends are able to present complete arguments, schools of thought, etc. But where they have done their homework, I am lazy. Much in the same way I find peace with the paradox of God's sovereignty and the free agency of man, I find paradox here as well but see no use in keeping a detailed record of resources and history. This is likely where NJs shine like no other. I think there's something inherent about Ni that allows paradox and tension to just make sense to us with just the most basic pieces of information. But I'm getting off point here.

To answer your first question, being born into anything doesn't make you subject to a collective belief. To put it anecdotally (and perhaps start another tangent [I love those]), one of my missionary buddies was telling me about a couple he's friends with who do ministry in South America. One day they got a knock at their door from a man whose unreached, polytheistic village they hadn't been to. Something compelled that man to leave and find this couple. You see, the man had grown up under the influence of witch doctors and gods to explain away the each of the elements -- the whole bit. But he knew it was amiss. As it says in Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse," this villager knew from nature his village's beliefs were false. Not long after this, the entire village came to the knowledge of Christ. This is the theory of general revelation, and while it's not explicitly proven in scripture, it is implied, and many reputable theologians subscribe to this theory. So, to bring the answer to your question to conclusion: being born into a Christian home doesn't make you a Christian inasmuch as your family gluing feathers to your body doesn't make you a peacock.

> And does that mean that Christians can sin (consciously or unconsciously) and still remain among the chosen?

Yes. This much is clear in scripture.

> What are the parameters?

This looks like something you need to determine at the intersection many believers find themselves: the Calvinist/Arminianist dichotomy. Only I don't see it as a dichotomy. I mentioned paradox above, and I think it applies here. Both extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism are heretical. Both of their respectively sensible ilks find their basis in scripture. But to believe this is a continuum is to believe God is constrained to four dimensions. He is not. I said before when we briefly grazed the topic of free will that both God and man have their agencies intact, and God is able to exercise sovereignty at the same time we can exercise free will. This isn't a place-a-dot-on-the-line-where-it-feels-most-comfortable thing even though it seems >80% of the church treats it that way; it's a God thing. And once again, we are apart of it!

> Or perhaps "God's Elect" are only those true believers who have the Holy Spirit and experience a deeper level of faith?

I don't want to answer this question until I get a little more on your church background and where you are coming from with this. There are a couple different ways for me to ascribe meaning here and I want to be clear on where you're coming from.

> 1) everything we do has to be (not for our own glory) but for the glory of God 2) We should serve in the best way we know how, using the skills and talents that come naturally to us 3) Try to be humble in our own way... We must be true to ourselves in the way we live our faith.

I love being special and all, but I think that applies to everyone! :P

> Thank you also for linking 1 Corinthians 1:25 - I don't believe I've come across that particular verse before...

I highly encourage you to read the epistles. If you aren't familiar with Paul's writings, get a study Bible or concordance for cultural context, and prepare to be blown away.

--End of Part One--