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> I'm going to say some hard words.

Don't worry. It takes quite a lot for me to take offense.

I can understand where you're coming from since that was my opinion for much of my life. But let me shed some light on why I've changed my tune while still retaining my testimony in the Family Proclamation:

The church has recently gone through great efforts to infuse an attitude of compassion and understanding on this topic. See: Mormons and Gays site and Church's response to HRC campaign on same-sex attraction. Please note that I'm not cherry-picking here, these are all recently published, authoritative statements which, in my mind, all point at a call for Latter-Day Saints to strive to show more love and understanding.

Some quotes from those resources:

----

> This Church has felt the bitter sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society’s leaders often seemed disinclined to help. Our parents, young adults, teens and children should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation whenever it occurs, including unkindness toward those who are attracted to others of the same sex. This is particularly so in our own Latter-day Saint congregations. Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment - to love one another.

--

> Latter-day Saints believe that our true commitment to Christian teachings is revealed by how we respond to this commandment. This love is tested every day of our lives. We may know individuals with same-sex attraction in our workplaces, congregations and town halls. As people with hopes, fears and aspirations like everyone else, these neighbors deserve our love. But we can’t truly love the neighbors next door if we don’t love the neighbors under our own roof. Family members with same-sex attraction need our love and understanding. God loves all his children alike, much more than any of us can comprehend, and expects us to follow.

--

> As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.

--

> If we want to understand one another we have to see ourselves in one another. Open the book of each individual life and you will find a familiar story. We all need forgiveness, because we all sin. We all need comfort, because we all suffer.


----

In 2007 I felt compelled to re-examine the, frankly, homophobic attitudes which I had about homosexuality. Whenever I would be faced with that topic I was filled with a set of emotions, none of which I could identify as love or charity. I happened on the book Born That Way by Erin Eldridge which is her insightful and heart-wrenching account of her struggle with same-sex attraction. In the end it is a powerful testimony of the Savior and His atonement and love, and the love of church members and leaders being what enabled her to repent and return to full fellowship in the church and happily start an eternal family. This book rooted out my negative attitudes towards homosexuality and homosexuals and replaced it with a desire to love and show compassion.

BTW, the premise of that book, the homosexual feelings is not necessarily a choice has been reaffirmed by the church:

> The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Before I read that book I viscerally held a different opinion on that matter.

All of this combined with living next to two very loving and compassionate homosexuals for the past 7 years has, IMO, helped me choose to be filled with love on this topic. And daily showing love towards my literal neighbors and attending their ceremony, giving a hug, and expressing to them that I'm happy for them seem like small tokens of that love. That I could show up and celebrate their humanity while simultaneously not condoning the sin. Similar to how I can go do a business function or wedding that serves alcohol and still have a positive time and opinion of those around me.

Okay. Now, despite all of the above my testimony in the principles laid out the Family Proclamation is still strong. However, I believe that that revelation was not given from hate. It is up to each of us as Latter-Day Saints to find the compassionate interpretation of that proclamation--to find what fruits of love we can cultivate from that.


----

Finally, what has solidified my choice to err on the side of love on this matter is what I put myself in other's shoes and ask myself, "What would be my attitude and response if one of my children chose to act on homosexual feelings that they had?" Would I feel sad? Yes, because I firmly believe in the blessings and God's covenants and commandments. But would I disown? Neglect? Ignore? Disdain? Isolate? No! And that has been re-affirmed by recent council:

> Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.

> Elder Quentin L. Cook

So it's up to all of us to decide how we balance love and law in our lives. But I have been drawn more towards love.

So treat this post here as the "How" to my reaction to the above. For the "Why", see this comment here and also this blog post which I've recently done (which just talks about charity in general, not on the topic of homosexuality).

Hello!

Congrats on your journey so far. I am a convert to the church (baptized a little over a year ago) and remember feeling exactly like you did. Being baptized into the church was the biggest (and best) decision of my life, but it was not a decision I wanted to make lightly. I have a few book suggestions and then some semi-unsolicited but hopefully helpful comments.

The God Who Weeps by Terryl and Fiona Givens — I read this one while investigating the church, and it really opened my eyes to how truly beautiful Mormon theology is. So many other religions only left more questions for me, and Mormonism was the first thing that clicked. This book brings a lot of those ideas together. Also I am obsessed with Terryl Givens, everything he writes is fantastic, which brings me to...

Wrestling the Angel also by Givens. This is definitely more of a Mormonism 303 lesson as it is quite academic. But Givens does a fantastic job explaining Mormon doctrine within the larger historical landscape of Christianity. The book is organized topically, so you can kind of skip around and read about what interests you.

Some of my favorite talks that have really spoken to me:

His Grace is Sufficient by Brad Wilcox

God is the Gardener by Hugh B. Brown

On How We Know by Truman G. Madsen

Some other suggestions:

Not sure where you live, but I highly recommend attending any local Institute classes that might be happening (your missionaries will know of them). It's a once a week class where people get together and discuss the Gospel. For me it was great to discuss things with people other than the missionaries and the member who introduced me to the church.

Don't feel like you have to know everything. This was my biggest stumbling block to deciding to be baptized. I felt like because this was such a huge decision (it was), I had to know absolutely everything I could before agreeing (impossible). One of the things I love most about the Gospel is its promise of never-ending, always increasing knowledge to anyone who will seek it. Baptism is not the destination. It is merely the gate into the kingdom of God, the beginning of a journey that has brought so much endless peace, joy, and love into my life. At a certain point I realized I could never know everything, but I knew enough to know that this path would take me to where I needed to be, that this is a life worth living.

Oooo this is my wheelhouse!

First, I would recommend looking at the Mormon History Association Best Book awards going back to 1966. Quality scholarship, research, and writing are a mainstay with them.

Required reading:

Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John Turner / Brigham Young: American Moses by Leonard Arrington

Considered two of the best books about early Utah and the Brigham Young years. Arrington's book was considered groundbreaking when he wrote it, and Turner's book brings in the valuable perspective of the non-Mormon writing about Young. For many Mormons, Turner's book will be less sympathetic to Young than Arrington's, but Turner also worked closely with the Church Archives (and spoke glowingly about them and that process), so his research had access to some better sources. If you need a primer for Brigham Young, I recommend Arrington's book. For a Brigham Young graduate level course, I recommend Turner.

Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview by Michael Quinn

To understand much of what happened in early Mormonism, you must understand the role that folk magic played in the lives of Americans in the 1800s. Quinn's research at this time was top notch, and he was a quickly rising star among Mormon historians. Considered one of his best works, and foundational to the understanding things like seer stones, divining rods, visions, and everything else that happened in the early church days.

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince

Covers late 1940s - 1960s Mormonism, one of the "rising moments" of Mormonism when we went from a Utah-church to a worldwide church. Prince had amazing access to the journals of President McKay's secretary, which led to some candid discussions about things like the publishing of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie, blacks and the priesthood, ecumenical outreach, and politics.

Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball / Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball

Ed was Pres. Kimball's son, and the books cover both the apostle years and presidency years of Spencer W. Kimball. If you had to choose one, get Lengthen Your Stride, but make sure it has the CD that comes with the book. This has the unabridged manuscript prior to the Deseret Book edits, which is much more interesting.

By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens (heck...anything by Terryl Givens!)

I'll admit - I'm a Terryl Givens fanboy. By the Hand of Mormon was the one that first got me in to him, mostly because he took the Book of Mormon as a serious work of literature to examine it's merits. It's not as devotional as many traditional LDS books about the Book of Mormon (it was put out by Oxford University Press), but it really gave me a deeper appreciation for the Book of Mormon as contemporary literature. Also check out Viper on the Hearth (Mormons on myth and heresy), People of Paradox (Mormon culture), When Souls had Wings (the pre-existence in Western thought), and so many others.

And just because I'm a big book nerd, here's the list of books that are on my desk right now that I can give you quick reviews if you want:

• Leonard Arrington and the Writing of Mormon History by Greg Prince
  
• The Mormon Jesus: A Biography by John Turner
  
• Mormon Feminism: Essential Writings, edited by Brooks, Steenblik and Wheelwright
  
• Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness by W. Paul Reeve
  
• Pedestals and Podiums: Utah Women, Religious Authority and Equal Rights by Martha Sonntag Bradley
  
• A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine & Church History, edited by Laura Harris Hales
  
• Glorious in Persecution: Joseph Smith, American Prophet 1839-1844 by Martha Bradley Evans
  
• The Mormon Church & Blacks: A Documentary History, edited by Harris & Bringhurst
  
• From the Outside Looking In: Essays on Mormon History, Theology and Culture, edited by Neilson & Grow
  
• Out of Obscurity: Mormonism since 1945, edited by Mason & Turner
  
• Mormonism & American Politics, edited by Balmer & Riess
  
• Seeking the Promised Land: Mormons and American Politics by Campbell, Green & Monson
  
• A Book of Mormons: Latter-day Saints on a Modern-Day Zion, edited by Jensen & McKay-Lamb
  
• Revelations in Context: The Stories Behind the Sections of the Doctrine & Covenants by the LDS Church
  
• Natural Born Seer: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1805-1830 by Richard S. Van Wagoner
  
• Revelatory Events: Three Case Studies of the Emergence of New Spiritual Paths by Ann Taves (looking at Mormonism, Alcoholics Anonymous and A Course in Miracles)
  
• A House Full of Females: Plural Marriage and Women's Rights in Early Mormonism, 1835-1870 by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
  
• Baring Witness: 36 Mormon Women Talk Candidly about Love, Sex, and Marriage edited by Holly Welker

> My statement of the hat and stone method being the most successful stems from /u/josephsmidt comment.

Based on the little we know (there really were only a small number of witnesses who like always tell it slightly differently) I think this is correct. And actually this brings me to a point I failed to make which is: Joseph eventually got rid of all stones altogether. For example, the D&C started using seer stones like the BoM, but then Joseph started dictating the majority of the D&C with no instruments at all.

So one way to look at it is trial and error, but another way is to perhaps look at it is successfully needed less and less training wheels.

> I will personally research more about the method now and if I uncover any more important points I will surely add them here.

Excellent, and I encourage you to take your research and do what real academics do:

1. Study primary sources. (You should probably be investing in the Joseph Smith Papers which are as raw and unfiltered as it gets)
   
   
2. Study peer-reviewed journal articles (like this) or books published by prestigious academic presses like Givens published by Oxford Press. If you find instead material containing popular theories that do not have enough muster to either be published in reviewed journals
   
   For example, there are some popular websites that cut and paste "facts" in such a way to support a number of theories that you will notice have not passed the scrutiny of peer review. You can't find a single reviewed scholarly source with the same conclusions. In the sciences such theories are called crackpot theories because if there was any merit to them they would be both published and cited by respected scholars. But in both popular Exmo and Apologist circles, such websites are highly popular (especially on reddit) because academic rigor isn't the goal, reenforcing bias becomes the goal.
   
   But again there is a tried and true cure for this crackpottery: stick to the peer-reviewed literature. If you find your favorite website or flashy document generates excitement but has not passed peer review, just know that your are as safe accepting it's claims as you are any other unpublished bit of exciting crackpottery. Like the exciting documents creationists create that can't find themselves into a single journal.

I'm pretty sure I've been in your shoes. In my experience, a lot of the resolution for the questions you have won't be found in neat and tidy fairlds responses, but rather in an acceptance of the limits of your own knowledge combined with an acknowledgement that, despite your newfound knowledge of how much you don't know, you can still recognize the church for the blessing it is, for the vehicle it can be to commune with God.

My own perspective has shifted from one that relied on the truthfulness of the church to inform my beliefs about the meaning and purpose of my life to one that relies foremost on a personal relationship with God to guide me. I have come to a point at which, though I hope the church is true, my happiness and meaning in life is no longer contingent on it being so. It hasn't been all smooth sailing, and, frankly, I don't really know what the future holds, but that's okay. My only advice to you would be to wait. Study, pray, ponder, take your time. You don't have to be all in our all out right now. Be honest with yourself and your loved ones who will provide support as you navigate the road ahead.

Here are some resources that helped me navigate my own faith crisis. Perhaps they may help you:

http://terrylgivens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Letter-to-a-Doubter-2014-Revised.pdf

Terryl Givens is an LDS scholar and English professor at the University of Richmond. In the above letter, he discusses and provides historical context to some of the major theological and historical issues in a way that only he can do. He's very eloquent, I think, and draws from non-LDS literature to express his thoughts in a poetic yet understandable way. He, along with his wife, also wrote a couple books entitled, "The Crucible of Doubt: Reflections On the Quest for Faith," and The God Who Weeps: How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life." The Crucible of Doubt talks about overarching, not specific, reasons why we may doubt our faith--and why that's okay. The God Who Weeps discusses the nature of God and our relationship with him. Both are excellent. Here are the Amazon links if you're interested:
http://smile.amazon.com/dp/1609079426
http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B009GKP78K

Since we're on the subject of letters, here's another one called, "Letter to a College Student" by Eugene or "Gene" England.

http://www.eugeneengland.org/letter-to-a-college-student

It discusses the same general idea of struggling with doubts, but especially as they relate to certain undesirable cultural aspects of the Church. England was a Mormon scholar who, sadly, died in 2001 from cancer. I've read several of his essays and never been disappointed. He speaks so insightfully yet humbly about his own struggles with discipleship as he shares experiences from his personal life. I definitely could relate to him. He wrote another essay, "Why the Church is as True as the Gospel," that is really good, I think.

http://eugeneengland.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/1999_e_004.pdf

Here's the synopsis from the top: "This classic essay makes the case for the Church being as (or even more) important than the gospel for our salvation because of its role as a 'school of love.' It serves us this way by forcing us to interact with and giving us opportunities to learn to love those we might otherwise never choose to associate with." Basically, he argues that the things we find exasperating about Church and its flawed members often are the schools of love we need in order to grow and become more like Jesus Christ. This essay has helped me be more positive and patient with others who think or behave differently that I do.

The next item is a blog post by Mormon scholar Adam Miller entitled, "Letter to a CES Student," which plays off the title of a certain "Letter to a CES Director" that is popular in ex-Mormon circles.

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/10/letter-to-a-ces-student/

Miller's piece does not attempt to refute its namesake piece point-by-point; rather, it addresses the importance of not letting our doubts and speculative questions prevent us achieving the real business of life, which is "to pay attention, to care for the world pressing in on you, and pull out that arrow thickly smeared with poison before you and those you love die from the wound. You business is to sacrifice all of it. Your business is consecration. And you have to consecrate everything, not just part. Even your doubts and questions need to be consecrated. Even Mormonism itself must be consecrated and returned. This work is more than enough."

The last item that I'll recommend is an essay from staylds.com entitled, "How to Stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after a Major Challenge to Your Faith."

http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.pdf

Originally penned by John Dehlin, who has since disassociated himself from the staylds.com website and the Church, the essay offers practical advice about how to navigate the middle ground of Mormonism between literalistic orthodoxy and complete abandonment. My biggest takeaway was that, should one desire to stay in the Church, there are legitimate ways (and reasons) to do so, even if you have serious doubts about your testimony. Even though the essay is quite long, it is very accessible, and it deeply resonated with me when I was in the darkest time of my spiritual crisis.

Hope this helps. PM me if you'd ever like to talk.

I've been there (Spouse needed marriage counseling). Medications helped her, but only to a point. When we finally connected with her current therapist (who also happens to be a member of the Stake Presidency with his partner, who is the Stake President - both really awesome men), there was no mention of any need for her to repent. What there was was an honest look at her self-expectation and the current paradigms she used for self-evaluation. Both were lacking (as I had been trying to tell her for years). She was way too hard on herself, as well as measuring herself up to impossible standards. Some concepts were shared with her as to how to turn this around and we practice at it weekly. It's slow, but there IS progress and she seems happier more often.

Based on your OP, I would guess that you feel overwhelmed at all the things that a good "mormon wife" is "expected" to do and like you can't do them all and no one is helping. The latter may be but there's nothing you can do about that (everyone has their agency). What you CAN do is correct the former. Expectation is a lie. Our Father in Heaven and our Savior do not intend that goals and striving for perfection be a cat o' nine tails to beat ourselves with.

Based on some personal experience, I would recommend the following:

• Listen to Jack Marshall's Down with Perfectionism (CD can be purchased from Seagull Books - there's other stuff on it too).
  
  
• If you don't have it, RUN and buy a copy of Believing Christ by Stephen E. Robinson. Read it, believe that you understand it, then read it again. When you truly grasp what he is trying to communicate, you will never look at the Atonement or your efforts in this life the same way again. Trust me.
  
  Sister, you are loved by a Father who knows your every need and you have a Savior who died for you. When I say that, what I mean is that if all the rest of us on the planet were perfect and you were the only one who ever made any mistakes, He would STILL have come to Atone for you. Let that sink in for a minute. He loves you that much. And you know what? You're worth it. Hang in there, sister. And feel free to come and visit us here often. There are many of us here that only want the best for you. Sometimes, you'll get the occasional "bad seed", but I know several people on here (all of the mods included) are just itching to offer their support in any way they can.
  
  Be well, and may you find the peace of the Spirit in your life.

Bear Your Testimony is a Protestant thing, typical evanglical. You don't see it in Anglican or Catholic denominations basically at all, let alone under that name. When somebody is sharing their "testimony" they are sharing "their story", or "their journey", or "how god touched them", but it's never explicitly "my testimony".

The LDS church is the only place I've ever even seen F&T meetings. But it's part of my favorite things about the Church. This outward sharing of faith. Sure, F&T meetings are more "preaching to the chior" and "family story time", but it's usually considered highly inappropriate in today's society to just randomly testify.

The Sacrament for me is...not very different from the Catholic one. I very briefly believed in the real presence, but I feel that same closeness to God when I partake of the Sacrament, so I just assume it's all ordained by Heavenly Father to get us closer to Him, no matter where life takes us. [Reads further] Oh, you mean like...the how. Yeah in the Catholic Church the sacraments are Baptism, Confession, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Ordination to the Priesthood, and Anointing of the Sick. You guys have all of those, and are also all provided by priesthood members, but you guys only call "communion" "The Sacrament". Which is totally valid and fine. I could go either way on that.

Also the saint thing, pretty much exactly spot on. When we are confirmed we usually pick a "patron saint" who will pray for us in time of trouble. I guess Catholics sort of believe that Saints are semi-omnipotent? I'm not sure.

Also if it seems that I'm answering from both sides of the pew, I am. I struggle to decide LDS or Catholic. There are such strong points for both. Currently, I'm looking forward to going to an LDS service this weekend but we'll see. I made a few friends awhile back at my ward and I kind of want to see them again.


A great book if you can find it is called Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest (Amazon link) and it talks about how the two churches are similar. In my own experience, if we believe Jesus brought in his dispensation, and then the early church fell away, theoretically, the Catholic church is that Church. and everything, EVERYTHING, hinges on the fact of whether or not you believe a) that original church fell away and b) Joseph Smith restored that gospel.

Those are huge philosophical and historical questions that I am dealing with. So for now I sit, ever wavering, between a pew with kneelers and one without. I know I need to pray more, because I know Heavenly Father has that answer. I'm just not sure if I'm fully ready to commit myself to the answer. If it's "catholicism" that means never looking back to Mormonism. If it's Mormonism, then that's never going back to my childhood parish. It's a tricky decision that needs a lot of faith that I don't have yet. I need to ask. And I need to be brave enough to ask.

Others have given good suggestions, but I'll add my own thoughts. First, let me recommend "Joseph Smith--History" which you can read here, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng. That is the canonical description of the initial events (visions, angelic visitations, etc.) that led him to found the Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints, and was written by Joseph Smith himself in the mid 1830s. If you have downloaded the LDS "Gospel Library" app for Android/iPhone, it's also available via Scriptures->Pearl of Great Price->Joseph Smith--History. It's just a few pages long.

Secondly, I recommend the Book of Mormon, which we view as a book of ancient holy scripture like the Bible. According to Joseph Smith's account, he was given the ancient record from an angel of God and translated it miraculously in 1829 (when he was 23), then returned the ancient record to the angel when complete. It describes God's dealings with a branch of the Israelites who migrated to the Americas around 600 BC. It's named after Mormon, who (according to the book) lived around 400 AD and was instrumental in compiling the records of the various prophets before him in addition to adding his own account. This book is core to my own personal witness that he was a true prophet. It's around 450 pages long, and as scripture it is fairly dense, so it's not just something you can read in an afternoon. You can read it online here, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng, or in the "Gospel Library" app via Scriptures->Book of Mormon. Or, if you would like a hard copy, you can request a free copy here: https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/book-of-mormon-request. (Free books are made possible by donations of church members.) Someone else recommended a few chapters to begin with, which sounded good to me. I'll add a suggestion, namely 3rd Nephi chapters 11-27 where it presents an account of Jesus visiting these people after his death and resurrection in Jerusalem. And starting from the beginning is also not a bad plan. Certainly read the modern introduction and the testimony of the various witnesses who said Joseph Smith showed them the ancient plates from which the book was translated.

Thirdly, for a more in-depth historical view, I strongly recommend Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532. He's an award-winning biographer, and this is a fantastic book with a very complete description of Joseph Smith's life. (Also quite lengthy, but I found it easy to read.) To me it strikes a great balance between being respectful towards Joseph Smith and those who view him as a prophet (Bushman himself is a believer), and being historical and not afraid to talk about things Joseph Smith did which were somewhat questionable. It made Joseph Smith a very human figure to me. Most other accounts of Joseph Smith's life by contrast are very one sided--presenting only the good about Smith to argue that he was a true prophet, or presenting only the bad about Smith to argue that he was a fraud.

Good luck in your quest to learn more! Don't hesitate to ask more questions here.

This is a book that might help you understand the faith differences: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599552574/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We have no way of telling what this man is thinking. It is common for Mormons to seek to marry other mormons, and ones that practice the faith in similar ways. (We pretty much grow up thinking that everyone practices our faith the same way we have grown up doing so, and as we get older we learn that other just as faithful as we sometimes do things differently than we do and that is all right.)

It may be that the reason he is dating outside his faith is that he doesn't want someone who wants him to honor LDS standards. It may be because you were simply unresistable to him, despite his longtime desire to marry within the Mormon faith. It might be because he's already dated every mormon girl and doesn't want to move or wait to widen the pool of prospective partners. It might be because he wants to have sex before he gets married and that isn't going to happen if his partner isn't LDS (of course we know that you don't have to be LDS in order to choose celibacy before marriage, and even those who have chosen it don't always maintain it: I'm just articulating a possible thing he might be thinking). He might be dating you precisely because you aren't marriage material and he isn't ready to marry.

At the point that you are needing to decide whether to continue dating him, just ask him why he is dating outside his own faith. Ask him what he believes and how he wants to live his life. Ask him how you would be doing a life with you not sharing the same faith. That's the only way (maybe after several conversations, this is hard stuff and people aren't always able to be honest even when they really know themselves) you will know what is going on.

Yes you can go to church with him. Be sure to ask him to attend church with you at the same pace he wants you to go with him, if your faith is important to you.

> In my understanding polygamy is not officially gone from church doctrine, but rather just not currently practiced. Reading OD1 seems to confirm this as in no place does it strictly repeal it. Is this true? Will polygamy be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom and would it be practiced again should the laws of marriage in the United States change to permit it?

Yes, it is still doctrinal and does still shape sealing policies. I've been taught that it would be practiced again in the future and that it is practiced in the CK. I don't, however, believe that.

> I've heard rumors and read accounts of prominent Mormon leaders (Joseph Smith & Brigham Young in particular) marrying women who already had husbands that were still living. Is this true? What is the reasoning behind this?

Yes, it's true. I don't know the reason. It's one of the most troubling aspects of the historical practice of polygamy.

> In the afterlife, can someone marry my wife? (We are sealed in the temple)

Who really knows what exactly will happen in the afterlife?

> Brigham Young had children with multiple (like... 15ish?) wives? Why were these children not permitted to have a father they didn't share with so many others? Did Utah Territory have a significantly larger female population than male?

Brigham had children with 16 of his 55 wives. In a lot of cases, I don't really see a significant difference between growing up with Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball as your father and growing up without a father—especially when those fathers spent so much time off on missions. Utah didn't have significantly more females than males. The census actually indicates that there were more men than women. AFAIK, it was only a small number of men that were able to get a large number of wives. Elder Widstoe talks about it in his book "Evidences and Reconciliations", and concludes that they practiced polygamy not because there were surplus women but because they believed that God commanded it.

> D&C 132:62-64. Do we still believe that? Why is that still in the scripture, it seems very... ... not what I learn in Sunday School. Man owning women, man sleeping with many women - women being denied the same, if the original wife disagrees God will "destroy" her... this is a bit concerning, please tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

No, I think that you do understand these verses. I don't know whether or not "we" (the Church) believe them, but I don't accept them. They're in the canon, but any lesson that includes section 132 is usually selective about how it covers it and mostly just covers the blessings of eternal (one man and one woman) marriage.

Polygamy is difficult to understand and easy to judge. There was some good that came out of it (including me), but a lot of it was also done poorly.

If you really want to learn more about polygamy, I would recommend reading history books.

Here are some good ones you could look into:

• Mormon Polygamy
  
• Mormon Enigma
  
• In Sacred Loneliness
  
• Rough Stone Rolling
  
• Joseph Smith's Polygamy
  
  I would also recommend reading what Parley P Pratt wrote about polygamy in his autobiography, as well as this essay that the church recently put out.

May be it would be helpful to point you to some honest source that seeks to give a non subjective and fair evaluation for the claims of the church.

1.   A book that provides a general view on how to go about thinking about hard church issues. It is really good. Entitled the Crucible of Doubt by Teryl Givens: https://www.amazon.com/Crucible-Doubt-Reflections-Quest-Faith/dp/1609079426/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=crucible+of+doubt+givens&amp;amp;qid=1561524835&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;sr=1-1<br />

   
   

2. My favorite book to start thinking very thoughtfully and from an academic perspective on the book of Mormon. Incredible stuff. Entitled “Understanding the BOM” by Grant Hardy: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KBX8MX63A88H3GCBCHYR
   
   
3. My favorite book on early church history focused around the life of Jesus Christ. Written by the renowned Columbia U History Professor Richard Bushman. Entitled Rough Stone Rolling: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400042704/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=richard+bushman+rough+stone+rolling&qid=1561524690&s=books&sr=1-1
   
   
4. My favorite book on modern day church history. It is a careful look at the David O McKay era with incredible source material. It completely changed my view of how the upper echelons of church governance works, but somehow at the same time strengthened my faith in our very fallible leaders. Entitled The Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince: https://www.amazon.com/David-McKay-Rise-Modern-Mormonism/dp/0874808227/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+rise+of+modern+mormonism&qid=1561524807&s=books&sr=1-1

ah - okay i see now.

so if i'm counting correctly, it looks like two women (Emily Partridge and Malissa Lott) said that they slept with joseph.

perhaps they were telling the truth. perhaps not.

as for motive of lying, joseph was a "rock star" and women have been known to make claims of sexual liaisons because they enjoy the affinity to the famous person.

on the other hand, they could be completely telling the honest truth.

i guess my original point is that we don't really know.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

btw - if you have an interest in the subject, i recently read this new book on the topic which i found really interesting.

Letters to a Young Mormon by Adam Miller. This books is a series of letters on gospel topics. It really makes you think about topics that we sometimes gloss over, and I feel like it's helped me be a more deliberate disciple.

First Principles and Ordinances by Samuel Brown. This book is next on my reading list, but everything I've read from this guy has been excellent. I recently saw someone recommend this book for prospective missionaries.

Wrestling the Angel by Terryl Givens. This book is a great history and explanation of Mormon doctrine and compares our beliefs to historical and modern mainstream Christian beliefs. I would highly recommend this one for future missionaries

Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Lyman Bushman:

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532


The best researched biography of Joseph Smith by an award winning historian who taught at Harvard, Columbia and BYU who is also an active believing Latter-day Saint.


Edit: If you like archaeology and the Book of Mormon, then try Mormon Codex by John L. Sorenson:

http://www.amazon.com/Mormons-Codex-Ancient-American-Book/dp/1609073991/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450660578&sr=1-1&keywords=Mormon+Codex

If you have any specific questions or things you would like explained, I would be happy to have a go at it.

As a general matter, there is a new book out that is probably perfect for what you need: Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity by Terryl L. Givens. The book is a scholarly look at the development of Mormon thought and not a defense of it. However, it does an excellent job of situating Mormon thought in relation to broader philosophy, while explaining the problems and questions that Mormonism seeks to address and why it reaches the answers it does.

All great suggestions here! I just wanted to add that Royal Skousen's Earliest Text edition of the Book of Mormon is also a great option. No pictures or footnotes, but it flows really well and there is lots of space in the margins. The verses are broken down into what he calls "sense lines" and it makes it super easy to follow. I felt like I was breezing through it.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Earliest-Text/dp/0300142188

That depends on what you think of academic works. I think it's super fascinating! But I'm into that kind of thing. Check out the reviews here! I use it as more of a reference than a straight through read. Most of the text is the Book of Mormon itself as well as textual comparisons of the extant original manuscript, printers manuscripts, and 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon.

>So where are they or their civilizations today?

Lehite successor states were ground to pieces by a combination of disease epidemic, climate change, and European aggression like the rest of America's endemic nations.

If you haven't read them, I highly recommend 1491 and 1493.

>Where were they when they were at their peak?

That's a great question that is not answered by modern revelation. John Clark thinks Joseph Smith believed that Book of Mormon events occurred around the Yucatan peninsula. I agree with him but I'm happy to cede ground if future evidences don't support that.

> Based on DNA and archaeology, it's a tough case, no?

Not really. This is an article you may (or may not) enjoy:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

I found that its cautions were very prescient.

I've not read it myself, but I hear that Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John G. Turner gives an honest assessment of the man without attempting to either slander him or sugarcoat his story. Have heard good things about the book from both Mormons and non-Mormons.

I recommend the book Mormon Scientist. Henry J. Eyring, father of Henry B. Eyring, absolutely accepted organic evolution. He had a number of conflicts with people in the church because of it, but still maintained his faith. There are countless BYU professors that accept organic evolution as well so you are far from alone.

I enjoyed Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon. It gave me some interesting things to think about while reading the Book of Mormon.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705

Hey, have you read Believing Christ by Stephen Robinson? He was a professor at BYU when he gave the talk version which was republished in the Ensign. I really recommend the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Believing-Christ-Parable-Bicycle-Other/dp/0875796346

And it’s sequel:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1590383230/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1590383230

Brad Wilcox name-checks Brother Robinson in his talk. I think these books really changed how we talk about grace and faith and works.

Talmage's Great Apostasy is very dated and quite inaccurate. It relies on a lot of protestant polmetics. A much better, more up-to-date option is: Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness And The Concept Of Apostasy

https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Apart-Historical-Consciousness-Apostasy-dp-0199348146/dp/0199348146/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=

You can see the announcement in BYU Studies here: https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/standing-apart-mormon-historical-consciousness-and-concept-apostasy

There is a version for you :)

Try either the

Reader’s Edition

or the

Study Edition

of the Book of Mormon, both by Grant Hardy. He’s a literary scholar who felt as you do.

For number 5:

As another Catholic who's been investigating the LDS faith on and off, I found this book to be really enlightening.

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-roots-Mormon-Harvest-Shuster/dp/1599552574/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1485848520&sr=8-2&keywords=eric+shuster

It's by another Catholic convert and he breaks down the similarities and differences between Catholicism and the LDS faith.  I became much less skeptical of Joseph Smith after reading this book, as I can't believe that a simple man from a farming family in upstate New York could have possessed the knowledge to write the Book of Mormon and have it be so scripturally inline with thousands of years of Christian tradition. 

I would also highly recommend "A New Approach to Studying the Book of Mormon." Instead of splitting it into chapters like in the traditional version, it focuses more on splitting the book by story. So for example, the table of contents to this version of the BOM reads much more like a traditional book ("The story of Nephi building a ship," "Nephi finds the Liahona," etc. for example) rather than just "Book of First Nephi," "Book of Second Nephi," etc. It also has margins that always list who is speaking and when/where the events you are reading take place. https://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-Studying-Book-Mormon/dp/0998717800

If you're looking for a one-volume general history, I'd recommend either Matthew Bowman, The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith (Random House, 2012), or Richard Bushman, Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford, 2008).

You might find the Encyclopedia of Mormonism useful to look up unfamiliar concepts. Being published in the 90s, it's admittedly somewhat out of date (they need to publish a second, revised edition), but the whole thing is online, so it's a massive resource that's easy to access.

I recommend that you read this article and that you read this book.

An excerpt from the article:
>Sometime after Henry and Zina were married, Joseph told Dimick Huntington, Zina’s brother, the story of why he was compelled to introduce plural marriage, and asked that Dimick tell the story to Zina. As Zina is quoted by one author to have said, “Tell Zina I have put it off and put it off until an angel with a drawn sword has stood before me and told me if I did not establish that principle [plurality of wives] and live it, I would lose my position and my life and the Church could progress no further.”

I would also add that Celestial law supersedes the Levitical law.

I suggest reading those things and go to the Lord about it to give you peace.

I too had questions about this and have been patient in receiving understanding. [D&C 50:40] -
>"Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth."

We believe that when the original twelve apostles (and those selected to replace them when they died) were killed, the authority to act for God (priesthood) was removed from the earth. As people lived without authority, their understanding of God's will got intermingled with worldly ideas. Finally the Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored in completeness through Joseph Smith.

But that doesn't mean that everything Catholic (or any other faith) is wrong. It means that the whole correct teachings with the proper authority are not in the Catholic church, but lots of well meaning and trying to live His gospel people and efforts remain within all faiths. If you are Catholic and want to compare see similarity and differences consider http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-roots-Mormon-Harvest-Shuster/dp/1599552574/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1458952015&sr=8-3&keywords=catholic+and+mormon or http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Mormon-Conversation-Stephen-Webb/dp/0190265922/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458952015&sr=8-1&keywords=catholic+and+mormon

I believe that they are referring to The Book of Mormon: A Reader's Edition by Grant Hardy. His other book, Understanding the Book of Mormon is highly recommended by other redditors. /u/Karl_Marxxx

Good stuff, if highly speculative. I suggest anyone interested in this sort of thing also read 1491 about life in the Americas before Columbus. Very insightful.

> George Q. Cannon reflected standard thinking when he cheered in the Deseret News about how fundamentally Anglo-Saxon the Utah Territory was.

Have you read W. Paul Reeve's Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness? "Reeve instead looks at how Protestants racialized Mormons, using physical differences in order to define Mormons as non-White to help justify their expulsion from Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. He analyzes and contextualizes the rhetoric on Mormons as a race with period discussions of the Native American, African American, Oriental, Turk/Islam, and European immigrant races. He also examines how Mormon male, female, and child bodies were characterized in these racialized debates. For instance, while Mormons argued that polygamy was ordained by God, and so created angelic, celestial, and elevated offspring, their opponents suggested that the children were degenerate and deformed."

I was recently reading the Reynolds decision and one of the things that fascinated me was how the majority opinion said, "Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people." As I read that, base doff the context of the history in the book mentioned above, the point of it linking the practice of polygamy with "non-white" cultures was to say that Mormons were, themselves "non-white," something that was a serious problem in a white supremacist society like 19th century America. So I was wondering, if you had come across anything that might suggest part of the motivation for embracing the ban was to "prove" that they were "white" by excluding those of African heritage?

This is interesting. I picked up the Grant Hardy edition of the BoM a little while ago, I might have to grab this one to compare.

First off, I want to thank you for the way in which you ask your questions. You seem very genuine and that's extremely refreshing.

Second, I used to work at a place where my best work friend was a Catholic. He knew a lot about the faith but didn't always know how to word his answers to my questions.

So I went online and happened across this book. It is cowritten by a Catholic and a Mormon and is broken down into topics which each author then explains the beliefs regarding that topic as taught by his religion. It's a fantastic resource for comparing and contrasting the two religions in a very unbiased and non-confrontational way.

I can't recommend it highly enough... heck, after you read it, you might loan it to your LDS friends.

Christ isn't materially different than you and I. He is emotionally/spiritually/constitutionally different, though.

I want to strongly recommend you check out Believing Christ (here are two shorter versions):

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/stephen-e-robinson/believing-christ-practical-approach-atonement/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/04/believing-christ?lang=eng

Here's the longer version:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002QCJO0C/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I love the Reader's Edition.

For those not familiar with it, here is a description:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mormon-Readers-Edition/dp/025207341X

>"Grant Hardy's new "Reader's Edition" has reformatted the complete, unchanged 1920 text in the manner of modern translations of the Bible, with paragraphs, quotation marks, poetic forms, topical headings, multichapter headings, indention of quoted documents, italicized reworkings of biblical prophecies, and minimized verse numbers."

Here's an example that shows the unobtrusive chapter markings and displays the poetic form, and Hardy's section headings: http://i.imgur.com/SrYHNZ8.png

http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Different-Color-Struggle-Whiteness/dp/0199754071

Great book, extensive bibliography.

Stephen E. Robinson's Believing Christ. His Following Christ is also quite good.

I usually recommend the Mormon contributions to Oxford's "A Very Short Introduction" series to people who want to learn more but who are not interested in conversion. They're short (like 100 pages) and scholarly (though written by believers) and very well done. There is one specifically about The Book of Mormon and one about Mormonism more generally.

The Book of Mormon at 531 pages.

An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon is also interesting, despite its flaws.

Rough Stone Rolling

So I was looking for a comparison of

• A New Approach to Studying the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ Paperback
  
  and
  
  
• The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, Maxwell Institute Study Edition
  
  And couldn't find anyone having done one. So I went ahead and bought the Maxwell edition, here's a little of 1 Nephi in both for anyone else curious how they compare.

if you are interested in pre-columbian archeology, and you haven't read it already, i cannot recommend this book enough: http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059

https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928

Terryl Givens in the early part of this book talks about the differences between the Restorationism that came through Joseph Smith and what we see in the other Restorationist groups of that time. I believe it's within the first 2 chapters or so, so wouldn't be too hard to find if you have access to the book.

I think this is a good primer.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-Introduction-Richard-Lyman-Bushman/dp/0195310306/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1536140911&sr=1-2

Amazon Link