(Part 2) Best products from r/zen

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Zen-Birds-Appetite-New-Directions-Paperbook-Merton/081120104X/

> "Zen enriches no one," Thomas Merton provocatively writes in his opening statement to Zen and the Birds of Appetite--one of the last books to be published before his death in 1968. "There is no body to be found. The birds may come and circle for a while... but they soon go elsewhere. When they are gone, the 'nothing, ' the 'no-body' that was there, suddenly appears. That is Zen. It was there all the time but the scavengers missed it, because it was not their kind of prey." This gets at the humor, paradox, and joy that one feels in Merton's discoveries of Zen during the last years of his life, a joy very much present in this collection of essays. Exploring the relationship between Christianity and Zen, especially through his dialogue with the great Zen teacher D.T. Suzuki, the book makes an excellent introduction to a comparative study of these two traditions, as well as giving the reader a strong taste of the mature Merton. Never does one feel him losing his own faith in these pages; rather one feels that faith getting deeply clarified and affirmed. Just as the body of "Zen" cannot be found by the scavengers, so too, Merton suggests, with the eternal truth of Christ

> When he says that it takes aeons of unnecessary suffering it doesn’t reject the notion that others haven’t come to the same understanding but with different vehicles to get there which is something that is often said here on this sub when other teachings, methods, paths etc come up.

Ha this is interesting to say but ... in my opinion you're getting it without understanding it.

Which is to say; you're right ... but here's where you're just a little off:

Imagine you are about to leave your house to go somewhere and you've got your shoes on, you're ready to go, you grab you wallet, your phone and ... shit ... where are your keys? You look behind the sofa, under the mail, on your desk ... oh crap! They were in your pocket the whole time!

Some might suggest that if you're weren't so stressed intellectualizing about where to find your keys, you might have taken a breath and felt them in your pocket.

Some might also argue that nothing is fully predictable, who knows if you stopping and taking a breath would have helped you find anything?, and it's not like it's your fault for not knowing where your keys were .... regardless, once you realize that they are there in your pocket ... whether it is right away because you stopped and took a breath or later on because you happened to feel them bounce during your frantic search ... it would make absolutely no sense to say something like: in order to find your keys, you just had to look behind the sofa, under the mail, and on your desk before you could feel them bounce in your pocket.

The only way that begins to make any kind of sense is in a fatalistic or deterministic paradigm ... which is of course itself a valid dimension of reality ... but in that view trying to engage in any sort of a "practice" is futile because you have no causal agency in that paradigm. You literally might as well do "nothing."

> anecdotes from Blofeld which stated that zen wasn’t diametrically opposed to Buddhism

I don't think that Zen is "diametrically opposed to Buddhism ... though first I do want to just parrot and paraphrase Ewk when I repeat his statement that he is of the opinion that Blofeld more or less has some financial dependency on "Zen Buddhist" schools and so tends to pay lip service to that idea ... either him or Cleary ... I can't remember but I feel like I have seen signs of that as well in the literature regardless.


In any case, I will definitely say that even in the "best case" where we say that "Zen is a kind of Buddhism" ... the "Buddhism" that Zen "preaches" is both a "non-Buddhist Buddhism" and a "Buddhist" tradition which claims to be the only valid one ... so it's a kind of "Buddhism" with a doctrine which necessarily excludes all the others Buddhist traditions.

That's pretty much what you're seeing in OTToM. I could add some speculative theory which would put forth a notion which attributes these Buddhist flourishes not to Huangbo but to the people compiling the record ... but it's not necessary to do that for this convo. We can just take the book to be Huangbo's actual words and I can still show you (or at least point out) where the dividing line is. (Incidentally, I personally don't really see much "Buddhist revisionism" in OTToM but I haven't looked that closely).

What happens is people who don't understand Zen but do like Buddhism feel bad when they are told "Zen is not Buddhism" or "Zen excludes other Buddhist doctrine" and so they fish around for concessions in the texts ... ignoring the very strong language to the contrary. Case in point: Huangbo comes off as a nice guy in the record ... but as I too could concede to the Buddhists ... even be willing to call Zen "Buddhism" ... and it would still leave the Buddhists feeling gutted after just a few paragraphs of words from the Zen Masters.

Look:

> Enmeshed in the meritorious practices of the Three Vehicles, you will be unable to attain Enlightenment.

Says it all right there and you could literally just stop right there. But let's look at the full picture:

> Nevertheless, the realization of the One Mind may come after a shorter or a longer period.

Just like finding your keys.

> There are those who, upon hearing this teaching, rid themselves of conceptual thought in a flash. There are others who do this after following through the Ten Beliefs, the Ten Stages, the Ten Activities and the Ten Bestowals of Merit. Yet others accomplish it after passing through the Ten Stages of a Bodhisattva's Progress. But whether they transcend conceptual thought by a longer or a shorter way, the result is a state of BEING: there is no pious practising and no action of realizing. That there is nothing which can be attained is not idle talk; it is the truth.

Huangbo comes off as gentle and it can be easy to hear his shouts as whispers. But don't get him wrong; he is not fucking around. THIS IS THE TRUTH. So no matter what you say, there is not "process" or "practice" for any "attainment." Since Zen Understanding is something that has to be attained without attaining anything, it's going to be a sort of teaching entirely different from (and antithetical to) a teaching based on practice or cultivation.

> Moreover, whether you accomplish your aim in a single flash of thought or after going through the Ten Stages of a Bodhisattva's Progress, the achievement will be the same; for this state of being admits of no degrees, so the latter method merely entails aeons of unnecessary suffering and toil.


It says it all right here as well. The only reason Huangbo would be offering concessions is so as not to come off as a dick ... (unless they were added later) ... when he says practice is completely useless.

> As, however, these [Three] Vehicles are relatively greater and lesser, unavoidably there are shallow teachings and profound teachings—none of them being the original Dharma. So it is said that there is only a One-Vehicle Way; if there were more, they could not be real. Besides there is absolutely no way of describing the Dharma of the One Mind.



> When Bodhidharma came from the West, he just pointed out that the substance of which all men are composed is the Buddha. You people go on misunderstanding; you hold to concepts such as ‘ordinary' and ‘Enlightened', directing your thoughts outwards where they gallop about like horses! All this amounts to beclouding your own minds! So I tell you Mind is the Buddha. As soon as thought or sensation arises, you fall into dualism. Beginningless time and the present moment are the same. There is no this and no that. To understand this truth is called complete and unexcelled Enlightenment.

Huangbo, and pretty much any of the other Zen Masters (great beings of the same school which forms Zen's backbone .. and I like to peg the core around Huangbo and Linji ... but that's just me ... it's not really even that important) ... anyway, these guys, when they were talking about Buddhism they were unraveling Buddhism ... they just didn't hate Buddhism ... that would be silly.

> If you WILL conceive of a Buddha, YOU WILL BE OBSTRUCTED BY THAT BUDDHA!!!

Pretty clear right? "Buddhism" without the Buddha! (Cleary's emphasis)

> Whoever has an instant understanding of this truth suddenly transcends the whole hierarchy of saints and adepts belonging to any of the Three Vehicles. You have always been one with the Buddha, so do not pretend you can ATTAIN to this oneness by various practices.



> But if, by a direct perception of the Dharmakāya's true nature, you grasp it in a flash, you will have reached the highest goal taught in the Three Vehicles. Why? Because the belief that the Dharmakāya can be obtained belongs to the doctrines of those sects which do not understand the truth.

I told you man; he ain't fucking around! lol

> Therefore is it written: ‘There is only the way of the One Vehicle; there is neither a second nor a third, except for those ways employed by the Buddha as purely relative expedients (upāya) for the liberation of beings lost in delusion.


So do you see how when you said: "When he says that it takes aeons of unnecessary suffering it doesn’t reject the notion that others haven’t come to the same understanding but with different vehicles to get there" ... that it wasn't accurate?

> When assholebuddha said it’s a gateless gate for a reason, it requires no effort, it completely broke down the need for me to even push it forward so I hope I didn’t come across as a dick.

Ha! Why do you think I'm taking the time to type all this out to you? I see a guy earnestly looking behind the sofa .... under the mail ... on his desk ... :P

I lose my keys all the time. I've since bought a Tile lol ... Regardless, I know the pain, haha.

Your comments on the differences between the Advaita teaching and Zen are pretty agreeable to me. I have more or less the same opinion which is to say I find a lot of similarities between the two ... just that Advaita "substantializes" a lot of its doctrine, it seems ... whereas Zen is more radical in the cutting off of concepts.

Ultimately I think that little difference does end up putting them universes apart, but I totally see the similarity as well.

Just like that "no effort" required to pass through the Gateless Gate ... you'd be surprised how hard "no effort" really is to pull off ... and how wide a tiny gap can be.

I think you should keep doing what you're doing. For my money, Huangbo has everything you need.

Even if you just want to berate me for being an ignorant moron ... I'm here as a resource for you if you want it.

One more quote for ya, has to go into next post though:

Unlocking the Zen Koan: A New Translation of the Zen Classic Wumenguam has been helpful. Also, reading Red Pine's translations and commentary on the The Platform Sutra: The Zen Teaching of Hui-neng, Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra. Although many people speak of the influence of the Lankavatara on Zen, I find it very difficult to read, even Red Pine's fairly approachable translation. But, the idea of "no views" and "no perceptions" was helpful, and "to speak of [this] to to speak of not [this]". Those themes come up often in koans. And studying Lao Tsu helps. Despite what the "not zen" crowd says, a background in Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism, and some historical background really does help a lot. Currently reading Ordinary Mind as the Way: The Hongzhou School and the Growth of Chan Buddhism and The Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism in Eighth- through Tenth-Century China to get some background on Mazu's lineage. Like many westerners, I used to think koans were just about derailing rational thought. While that is useful, now I also see some patterns, a certain amount of "sense", and more experiences of "of course". Easier koans like, it is your mind that moves help with the more difficult ones. Another helpful one is What are you doing? What are you saying?.

This is in one of my daughter's story books, called Zen Shorts, by Jon J. Muth, and it features Stillwater, a giant zen panda who entertains three children, siblings, with this and a couple other well-known koans. It won Caldecott honors. One of the most beautiful, gentle books I've seen for kids who understand.

In terms of becoming familiar with general eastern philosophical climate, I was recommended this by a user here a year and a half ago. I found it to be super useful.

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Minds-Eastern-Intellectual-Tradition/dp/B00DTNVNT2/ref=nodl_

In terms of cost, you get a free month and a free credit. So you can just do that and then cancel after you’re done

I always recommend engaging with primary source works (translated, naturally...), but some people are not ready to grapple with Yuanwu's collection of koans or with Linji yet.

Some initial works to start out:

• The Way of Zen, by Alan Watts
  
• Buddhism is Not What You Think, by Steve Hagen
  
• The Taoteching (the Taoist classic - Taoism is the mother of Zen)
  
• What the Buddha Taught (a primer on classic Buddhism - Buddhism is the father of Zen)
  
• Headless experiments inspired by Douglas Harding
  
  If you've worked through (one or more of) those and want more, some primary works I recommend:
  
  
• The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma
  
• The Platform Sutra, by Huineng the 6th Patriarch of Zen
  
• The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po
  
  That will get you to a good level.

> You are welcome to present clear quotes that dispute the translation

You have to understand that Red Pine is a poetic translator. He talks about it himself in this interview. I'd be suspicious of any researcher who leaned heavily on his dynamic translations. They're beautiful but not the kind you use in scholarship.

> I didn't notice a huge controversy in my own search.

There's debate and discussion, sure, but I don't think Chan scholars would use the word “controversy” in the salacious, sensationalist sense of the word.

Here are some sober examples of modern Chan scholarship that many layfolk on this sub would call controversial:

• Alan Cole's Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism and Patriarchs on Paper: A Critical History of Medieval Chan Literature
  
  
• Bejamin Brose's Patrons and Patriarchs: Regional Rulers and Chan Monks during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms
  
  
• Wendi Adamek's The Mystique of Transmission: On an Early Chan History and Its Context
  
  
• Albert Welter's Monks, Rulers, and Literati: The Political Ascendancy of Chan Buddhism
  
  
• Steven Heine's Chan Rhetoric of Uncertainty in the Blue Cliff Record
  
  > The question remains: if Red Pine's translation is so flawed, why is it at the top of the Lineage Texts?
  
  A translation meant for laypeople is a perfectly acceptable way for us to enjoy the texts. Just because there's debate over New Testament sources doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't enjoy the beautiful poetry of the King James Bible.
  
  > in fact they are thrown in the face of newbies and dissenters to shut them up
  
  I agree that they're “thrown in the faces of n00bz” but most of those newcomers are Dunning-Kruger-addled kids with little knowledge of the original texts and even less of the scholarship that brought us those texts to begin with.
  
  Oftentimes this lack of knowledge is paired with self-assured opinions and preconceived notions smuggled in from later religious traditions.
  
  > the text cited there contradicts all the major assertions people here make about his teachings, his lineage, and Zen in general.
  
  Chan studies is currently in a period of upheaval with lots of assumptions being challenged and reexamined. This doesn't mean you shouldn't read old translations but keep in mind that Red Pine isn't translating for scholars; his dynamic translations are for laypeople (and they're really beautiful because of it.)
  
  > I'm not sure what "process" you are describing with regards to the bible. Sounds interesting. Feel free to elaborate.
  
  A great summary is here.
  
  > Ewk's point, so far as he has one, seems to bully everyone who disagrees with him, and throw the texts in their faces.
  
  I've lurked on this forum for a very long time. I miss when Ewk made comments like this one, but I understand why he/she has grown so cynical and exhausted from the constant barrage of self-important twats and neckbeards either coming here to jerk themselves off or to genuinely fuck with him/her.
  
  When Ewk calls people trolls it's because so many of you really do just want to take the piss out of Ewk. I can't fault him/her for being short and dismissive nowadays, but I do miss the days when Ewk didn't need to be.
  
  EDIT: Coincidentally, they just made a very relevant comment about this too.

I liked the book also.

I recommend that you read Foyan's Instant Zen, translated by Thomas Cleary.

The best way to buy that book is as part of Cleary's collection, Classics of Buddhism and Zen: Volume 1, which contains four other good Zen texts as well.

Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle http://www.amazon.com/The-Jesus-Puzzle-Christianity-Challenging/dp/096892591X and other scholars I have read, have make a good case. Also re-read the 7 books in the Bible that are most likely from Paul. You can see it yourself. He says it himself. Textual criticism in Christianity started centuries ago. And the last 10 years has been very productive.

>Nothing exists from that time to give indication of day to day activities of anyone from antiquity. Nothing.

Are you kidding? There is an amazing amount of material to study from that time in China.

>odd penchant for telling us all what Mazu or Huineng was thinking

Really? Mazu said some interesting stuff, and his meetings with others were interesting to read about. I try to refer to that. If I go off and make up claims about it that are not in what he and his followers said and did, please set me straight.

I guess you weren't there for my conversations regarding McRae and other scholars. Sorry, I thought you had been there.

FTFY-BOT ACTIVATED!!!

> Dear /u/WanderingRonin77:
>
> Today I would like to share my views about this "Dogen" character with you.
>
> Certain texts have come to my attention, that suggest he was not an actual Zen Master. I know, I know, this might sound shocking, so please, I kindly ask you: bear with me.
>
> Many negative characteristics of Dogen's disciples and tradition tend to support this claim. These are really negative facts that are hard to ignore, including unethical sexual behavior, among other things.

> BUT... since we're talking about Dogen and not his disciples, let's focus on the facts about the guy himself.
>
> There are three books that helped me see the questionable nature of this character, and I'd like to share them with you now:
>
> - Bielefeldt's Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation
> - The Sound of One Hand
> - Pruning The Bodhi Tree
>
> Granted, you seem keen to him, so you might not be interested in going through the trouble of reading all this material. But I promise: This is not "ANTI-DOGEN" material. These are factual accounts and unbiased analysis of texts that, far from trying to convince people to hate Dogen, merely paint a historically accurate picture of him, his methods and his intentions.

> We all have lots of stuff we want to read, and probably reading books that random strangers want me to read is not high on the priority list.
>
> But I wanted to share it nevertheless.
>
> I hope you have a fantastic day, and if some day you get to read one of these books, we could discuss them earnestly and enrich each other's point of view.
>
> With love,
>
> /u/ewk.

Zen is detachment. To detach is to detach from the notion of inherent existence. The notion of inherent existence is the fundamental cause of all ignorance.

To detach from the notion of inherent existence is to “obtain the true nature of all.”

To detach from the notion of inherent existence is to “obtain the dharma.”

To detach from the notion of inherent existence is to “not seek (anything whatsoever).”

The act of detaching from the notion of inherent existence requires the greatest effort. To make such an effort is to cultivate the perfection of vigor (the fourth paramita).

Those who are said to do nothing, or only sleep and eat, are applying the utmost effort to constantly detach from the notion of inherent existence.

​

www.emptinessguan.com

You have linked to Amazon.com. Please consider using Amazon Smile instead to donate to your favorite charity for free.http://smile.amazon.com/Style-Clarity-Chicago-Writing-Publishing/dp/0226899152.

I heartily recommend the following book Style: Toward Clarity and Grace (Chicago Guides to Writing, Editing, and Publishing). Just in case you ever find a need to associate with people of some repute ... If you read it yourself and follow the precepts it will do you world of good to you. Everyreader -- aspiring or otherwise -- should have a copy of it.

Not bad. Hautou and koans go hand in hand. Nobody can pass through Buddhism's No-gate without the hautou. To think otherwise is to pursue the false path of literati or monji Zen. According to the Chan Whip, the adept devotes himself to the hard work (gongfu [kung-fu]) of cross-legged sitting and keeping an eye on the cue [huatou/hua-t'ou].

Yeah, I've always found the numbering thing weird, too. I feel like maybe it hearkens back to when the historical Buddha's teachings were passed down orally, and maybe the numbering made memorization easier.

Anyway, the number of precepts vary from school to school (and between those for monks and laypeople within those different schools). In Soto Zen, there are the Three Refuges, the Three Pure Precepts, and then these Ten Grave Precepts.

I don't know if I necessarily agree that SFZC has a lot of skeletons left in their closet. Wind Bell and Shoes Outside the Door have been pretty thorough over the years. Of course, for all I know they're having nightly orgies or something and we just haven't heard about it...yet.

It appears that it's a combination of the "brand" of Zen which was imported to the US blended with "American Culture" (or, more specifically, the brand of American Culture which did the importing).

This book gets mentioned a lot when you look into this issue. I haven't read it myself, but it seems like it would probably answer a lot of your questions:
https://www.amazon.com/Shoes-Outside-Door-Devotion-Francisco/dp/1582432546

This article cover parts of the book:
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Richard_Baker_and_the_Myth.htm

Take them booth with a grain of salt of course. There are always many sides to a story. I think these resources will address the narcissism though. Seems like it came down from the top.

I've read much of it, but I didn't "get it" until research led me to understand that Dogen's view of Zen is radically different than Chinese Chan Buddhists, e.g. Bodhidharma [1]. That understanding did help, but I'm still confused by Dogen's philosophy of practice-enlightenment (I don't find it as straighforward as Bodhidharma, for example), so I'm still researching occasionally as time permits. But honestly, I think Dogen just confuses things for me, and may be unneccessary.

[1] There are myriad Zen scholars that detail the idea that Dogen is different. Here are some starting points for anyone interested.

http://www.georgewrisley.com/The%20Buddha%20Still%20Rides%20a%20Bike-Wrisley.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Dogen-Meditation-Thinking-Reflection-View/dp/0791469263

http://www.amazon.com/Dogen-Textual-Historical-Steven-Heine/dp/0199754470


Before you get mad at me for presenting a slanted view (i.e. that Dogen is a different brand of Zen), these authors are well respected and pro-Dogen.

Nope.

There no historical basis for this claim (basically, it's the Soto version of the Virgin Mother).

In fact, as Bielefeldt points out in his book Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation, there is lots of evidence that Dogen was lying!

1. Dogen couldn't speak Chinese!
   
2. Dogen copied FukanZazengGi word for word from some Buddhist meditation manual falsely attributed to Baizhang (to boost sales), not from Rujing!
   
3. Rujing's students, who could speak Chinese, recorded his teachings, and "practice-enlightenment" isn't in there!
   
4. Dogen doesn't even mention Rujing in FukanZazenGi! Dogen made up the Rujing stuff years after he invented Zazen to get the Buddhists off his back!
   
   Plus, Dogen was a plagiarist, so his testimony about his own "enlightenment" and study with Rujing isn't credible.
   
   You know, like your testimony about your "enlightenment".
   
   But you know all this. You just have a bone to pick with Soto so you like to needle me to tell you a bedtime story about how Dogen is a cult leader, a la Joseph Smith and L. Ron.
   
   Doh! I fell for it again.

Try "Zen Shorts" by Junh Muth. http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Shorts-Caldecott-Honor-Book/dp/0439339111/ref=la_B001H6UCHW_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1367845573&sr=1-4

I love the book. i read it to my kids so much the cover wore off and I had to buy another copy.

I've read only small bits of the Shobogenzo. You should definitely check it out though, it's not that difficult to read and there is so much to learn.

That being said, I recommend this book, which I am currently reading.

Dogen on Meditation And Thinking: A Reflection on His View of Zen

It's a bit scholarly in nature, but it succinctly clarifies lots of things that Dōgen wants to say.

Thomas Merton's correspondence with DT Suzuki would probably be of great interest to you. Really, anything by Thomas Merton - but maybe start here: http://amzn.com/081120104X

This is what I have

The Diamond Sutra https://www.amazon.com/dp/1582432562/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_SJq9ub01CV1H4
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1582432562/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_SJq9ub01CV1H4

It can be useful to come in contact with words and letters especially when they "point" to consciousness beyond words and letters, without desires, aversions, and delusions. If words were altogether useless, those masters would have said nothing on the subject. It seems that many of the old masters did just that a lot of the time (said nothing). The words are the opening gambit, it's all changing experience.

Classic of Buddhism and Zen