Reddit mentions: The best christian poetry books

First of all, welcome back, brother. I am especially touched that your fiancée would even suggest to find a Catholic Church. (As an aside, you're not a convert; you're a revert since you're already baptized into the Church. I thought maybe you'd appreciate that factoid.)

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>I am looking for information about your Church, whatever you think is important to know.

There is a lot to know and many here would recommend a million and one things to study, especially since it sounds like you enjoy a good intellectual pursuit. I'm not going to discount others' recommendations, but I do want to highlight one thing: learn more about Jesus first. Find out what He taught, who He is, what His disciples and closest friends said about Him, what the Old Testament said about Him, etc. To that end...

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>I am looking for recommendations for a Catholic-approved version of the Bible, geared towards someone who appreciates philosophy and prefers something close to the original translations, or the most accepted by the Church.

First thing to note, all Catholic Bibles have 72 books. Protestants have 66. If you can't get a hold of a Catholic Bible, a Protestant one will do for now until you do get around to buying a Catholic one. Now, as for Catholic Bibles, if you speak/read Latin you can't go wrong with the Vulgate Bible. It's a Bible that was translated by St. Jerome who was fluent in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin; he had the original manuscripts -- some of which are lost to us today -- so his translations are widely accepted as authentic and faithful.

There's also the English version of the Vulgate Bible known as the Douay-Rheims. It's an almost word-for-word translation of the Latin so the English will sound archaic to our modern ears. It's not as frustrating as, say, reading Shakespeare but it's pretty close. I personally prefer (and currently use) a Douay-Rheims Bible that has the Clementina Vulgata beside it. It's essentially Latin and English side by side. You can find one here.

If want one with plain English, the New American Bible Revised Edition would suffice. (If you use this website, let me know. I have a discount code from my last purchase.)

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>I know nothing of the culture or norms of the Church, or what to expect as a new member.

One major rule to remember is that you can't receive Holy Communion until after you've gone to Confession. Given your situation, I would recommend setting up an appointment with a parish priest so he can give his full attention to you and your needs.

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>I do not know how to introduce myself to the congregation

There's usually no need to introduce yourself to the congregation since parishes tend to be big. If you would like to formally introduce yourself, however, give the parish priest a call and set up a meeting with him. It would also be a great chance to speak with him about your situation and get some pastoral guidance.

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>or tell a good Catholic church from a lesser one

Many here would recommend a more traditional parish. If that's not available, I'd say any Catholic church would do. If you're unsure about a particular church's standing, just give us the details on this sub. I'm sure someone here would be able to double check for you.

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>I know nothing of the Saints or the miracles, or what has been confirmed by the Church and what hasn't.

These are things you can learn later on. Focus on Jesus first. Rebuild your relationship with Him. Start with the basics; if you don't, you might burn yourself out. There is A LOT to learn about the Faith. Some say it's a lifelong endeavour. :P

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>I am also looking for a reading list to explore Catholic philosophy beyond those you typically encounter in standard philosophical reading, such as Aquinas or Pascal.

Hmmm... this depends on what sorts of things interest you. A good one that lightly touches on philosophy is Socrates Meets Jesus by Peter Kreeft (anything by this guy is pretty good, by the way).

A book that may be more pressing to your current situation is Why Be Catholic? by Patrick Madrid and Abraham Skorka, Why We're Catholic by Trent Horn, as well as Why I am a Catholic by Brandon Vogt. (They might need to work on a more original title, though :P) Since you have an Evangelical background, Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray might be helpful (although it can be a bit dry; also, it mostly deals with the Church's teaching on Baptism and the Eucharist) as well as Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn.

You can never go wrong with classics such as a collection of C. S. Lewis' works, The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri, The Seven Story Mountain by Thomas Merton, and Confessions by St. Augustine.

If you want a historical examination of Jesus and the Early Church, a good place to start is The Case for Christ by Brant Pitre, The History of the Church: From Christ to Constantine by St. Eusebius, and The Fathers Know Best by Jimmy Akin. I'd like to thrown in Jesus, Peter, and the Keys by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, and David J. Hess. This last one pertains to the Catholic claim regarding the papacy (and which I think is one of the strongest arguments in favour of the Catholic Church being the original one that the Lord founded).

Finally, there are YouTube channels you can follow/binge watch such as Bishop Robert Barron and Ascension Presents. Also, an amazing video about the Catholic Faith is a series made by Bishop Barron when he was "just" a priest called Catholicism.

I'm sorry if that's overwhelming but you raised some good questions. :P Anyway, I imagine it may be a lot right now so take it slowly, don't dive in through all of it at once. Find a local Catholic church, call up the priest, set up a meeting, then take it from there. And remember, you can always pray; God's always willing to talk with you.

You mean like Zeus/Jupiter? The Romans took over the Greek pantheon more or less wholesale, and was generally enamored with Greek civilization throughout the rise and heyday of Roman civilization, so there's a large degree of continuity between the two. So there's a great deal in Ovid, and in Roman mythology as a whole, that more or less accurately reflects Greek mythology. And there were still Hellenistic Greeks around to connect the Roman versions back to something like the original versions. A particularly useful source is Pausanius' [Description of Greece].

Pausanias was a Greek traveller and geographer who served the Roman Emperors, in part by writing a huge digest of descriptions of Greek regions, cities and landmarks. And along with those descriptions, he recounted the legends and myths associated with the places, bequeathing to posterity a much fuller picture of the distinctively Greek milieu.

If you want to study up on the primary sources -- which is really the best way to start with nearly any historical study -- here's what I'd recommend. Start with the Homeric Hymns and Hesiod's Theogony -- the former is a solid introduction to the Greek pantheon and it's importance to the classical Greeks, and the latter will give you one (but, bear in mind, not the only) account of Greek mythological cosmogony and origins. Move on to Herodotus' Histories, which will give you not only a sense of the historical context, but also a great deal of myth and, paired up with a decent map of classical Greece, a sense of how all of this relates to regional differences. It can be useful to keep all of that straight since the Greek gods are, above all tutelary, and a great deal of the variations that you find in myths about particular gods can be explained as a matter of Theban v. Athenian v. Spartan versions, and so on. That he favors whatever version fits best into his unified narrative is one of the reasons that I hesitate to recommend Graves' The Greek Myths -- part of the pleasure of reading Greek myth is that its primary characters are so mercurial. Ovid's Metamorphosis follows Herodotus well, then Pausanias' Description of Greece, and at that point, you'll be nice and rounded when it comes to Greek myth. After that, you may want to go back and read the Greek tragedians, or brush up on the mysteries, or since actually reading all of that will probably take you years, you may want to never read about the Greeks again. That certainly hasn't been the case with me, but I can certainly see how some people might feel that they've exhausted their interest in the subject after that.

Getting back to the question you actually asked, I don't know of any books that focus on examining the difference between the Greek and Roman versions of the same myths. It would be interesting to read if there were one. I would be surprised if, even covering the same basic stories, there were significant thematic differences. Despite its investment in Greek culture, Rome was a very different society with its own cultural leanings, and it seems like it would be natural for them to handle Greek mythology in a slightly canted way. What I can say with some assurance is this -- Roman religion went well beyond the Greek myths and pantheon, introducing and syncretizing Roman tribal gods and eventually developing the Imperial cult. The Greek influence is really, ultimately a point of departure for understanding Roman religion.

The versions I got, this publisher for all three, had a couple good things in it. One, the italian was on the left hand pages, the english on the right, so you could still see the poetry. Two, all of the three were about 300 pages of text, and then about a hundred pages of finer print notes. I didn't read all the notes, but I used a good bit of them. They definitely helped me understand a good part of the history I definitely was lost on.

Should you go back? Yes. That's my opinion. The translation I had, even if you didn't read the notes, was simply a beautiful sounding translation. The beginning of purgatory is the most boring part, which I didn't even think bad, but it definitely gets better and more interesting when he goes through the seven deadly sins. Paradise is simply awe inspiring. You need to get through Purgatory just to get to Paradise. Purgatory was the worst of the three if I had to rank.

I don't know about adding stuff like the tale of beryn or finishing off the cook's tale, but the Nevill Coghill version is the adaptation most accepted by critics today.

Peter Ackroyd did a prose translation of it in modern English that's meant to be very good as well.

Either one retains the subversive humour of the original. I wouldn't worry about a feeling of cohesion - all Chaucer intended is a collection of tales. These two are very 'complete' as far as I can tell, and any incompleteness is only really frustrating to Chaucer scholars.

My personal take on them is that they are a fascinating way of getting into a medieval mind, so I read the original text, with help from notes of course. They are funny, rude, exciting ... this is high-quality entertainment. There's a reason they've survived 700 years.

If you find this interesting, I would recommend that might find Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf a fun read. It's interesting because it's widely viewed as the first extant English poem, and also because Heaney does an amazing job of putting the original side-by-side with the English, both artistically as a poem and as a demonstration of the language.

I don't speak German or Frisian, but I studied a bit of linguistics in university and am broadly familiar with the changes that English went through as well as the basic characteristics of more conventional Germanic languages and I found this translation to be quite accessible if you're patient and willing to do a bit of homework. By the time I was done reading it, I'd begun to be able to more or less anticipate the modern English line after reading the original line without too much misunderstanding. I think a German/Dutch/Frisian speaker who knew English would find it even easier simply because the vocabulary wouldn't require switching between Germanic and French terms for the same things and also that the grammatical inflection would seem more natural than to a native English speaker.

In any case, it's a great way of seeing how English clearly is a fully West Germanic language even though our vocabulary is so strongly influenced by Old Norman and French.

Well you may also be interested then in another book called the Carmina Gadelica By Alexander Carmichael. I considered it when I wanted to learn about folklore, but it seems to be more focused on Celtic Christianity, whereas I was looking for more about the very old ways and folklore. The Silver Bough was good for that though. It does sound like it'll fit your interest! :)

I'd probably start here in order to get an idea of Britain on the macro scale.
While bountyonme mentions Saxons ruling from 410AD to 1066, the term "rule" is rather loose, as they were constantly being attacked and invaded by Nordic peoples, even having one as their king for a period of time.
And before even that, there was the Roman rule of England, which shouldn't be overlooked, as the Romans had a major impact on the entirety of Europe, and with England so far away from Roman Empire's Mediterranean hub, there was a different flavor of Roman imperialism there than in Italy or France, which left its mark on Britain even after the fall of Rome
Finally, when you're looking at British history, if you're curious about the various cultural elements of the Isles, and how the Brits perceived themselves and others, I would suggest reading Beowulf, with Tolkien's essay on it which examines how the tale provides a peek into the cultural mindset of the period. Also, if you want a somewhat amusing read, check out Gerald of Wales' Topography of Ireland, the section on Irish miracles is especially interesting.
Also, returning to bountyonme, definitely definitely definitely read The Canterbury Tales, Chaucer's poetry is equal parts beautiful and humorous. I would suggest reading it in its original Middle English, if you can get a handle on it. Many of the translations remove much of the beauty and humor of the work, leaving a dry, lifeless piece of shit and besmirching the genius's name. I would suggest this edition if you can handle the price or get it through interlibrary loan, it's well-footnoted, provides a primer on how to read/understand Middle English, and uses the most complete edition of the texts.
Welcome to the confusing/frustrating/entertaining/well-worthwhile arena of Medieval history.

Read Soloviev, especially if you can get a hold of the collection "The Heart of Reality." (http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Reality-Essays-Beauty-Ethics/dp/0268030618)

Read his work hand in hand with Dostoevsky's fiction. Philosophy will be unavoidable.

Of course, read Kierkegaard as well.

Also, DO read widely, and outside our stream of faith . . . when you feel ready for it. Chew the meat, and spit the bones. All truth is God's truth, no matter who's speaking it.

Philip Larkin, for one.

>They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

>They may not mean to, but they do.

>They fill you with the faults they had

> And add some extra, just for you.
>
>But they were fucked up in their turn

> By fools in old-style hats and coats,

>Who half the time were soppy-stern

> And half at one another's throats.
>
>Man hands on misery to man.

> It deepens like a coastal shelf.

>Get out as early as you can,

> And don't have any kids yourself.

Just by way of example. I also highly recommend T.S. Eliot (The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock is a good introduction; The Waste Land is somewhat harder, but well worth it) and Ezra Pound.

Also not a waste of your time: Wilfred Owen (specifically, "Three rompers run together hand in hand"; helps if you know he wrote his poetry while fighting in World War I, and eventually died in that war), Thomas Wyatt ("Whoso list to hunt," and pretty much all his sonnets; a little biographical research also makes his poetry more rewarding, but it also stands well on its own), the Fitzgerald "translation" of The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the poetry of Li Po (also spelled Li Bai) if you want to broaden your horizons outside English stuff. If you're not sure the poetry of someone who's been dead for 1200 years has much to offer you, consider this:

>Alone on Jian-Ting
>
>The birds take wing and fade away;

>The last cloud slowly disappears;

>We watch each other, the mountain and I,

>Until only the mountain remains.

And this is stuff you'll probably hate but that I will mention anyway because I like them and they are awesome: the Andrew George translation of the Epic of Gilgamesh (because it's excellent, and not one of those interminably dull prose translations; seriously, why the fuck do people find prose translations of verse acceptable?), and Gawain and the Green Knight (I recommend an edition that has the original Middle English side by side with the Modern English, or even better, a Middle English copy with a gloss of the difficult vocabulary in the margin).

EDIT: While I'm on the subject of translations and editions for poetry (but also literature in general): there are a lot of bad translations out there. The less well-known the language is, generally, the worse the average standard. The key, I have often found, are editions that come with a lot of additional scholarly errata, which are usually useful in providing context and additional insight. Penguin Classics editions are usually fantastic (this is how I found both the Andrew George translation of The Epic of Gilgamesh, which is still one of my favorite books of all time, and a fantastic copy of Njal's Saga, which, although somewhat outside the scope of your original request being longish prose rather than poetry, is highly entertaining and you should check it out), and when I go to the bookstore these days I tend to be awed by the broad range of texts they cover. Norton anthologies are also excellent.

If you want a range of poetry to survey and find what you like, my brother swears by the Penguin Book of English Verse.

Have the read The Inferno by Dante? That will knock your socks off. I recommend the Ciardi translation as he provides helpful plot summaries before each Canto and notes after. Both of which are necessary for anyone unfamiliar with the work to truly appreciate and understand its brilliance.

My husband is taking a grad class on Chaucer and The Canterbury Tales is mostly what they're focusing on. This is the book that was required for class, but it appears to be annotated, instead of the side by side. We recently bought this one from Barnes and Noble, which I just pulled off the shelf and flipped through and looks like it's more what you're looking for, with the Middle English on one page, and the translation of Modern English on the opposite page. He also has this book for his class that seems to give more of a history of the time period. I don't know if you're interested in that one at all, but I thought I'd through it out there for you.

Hope this helps!

> I also want actual english poem collections too


this is the only part where I can help. I suggest The Penguin Book of English Verse (don't be put off by the average rating, many reviews are just against the lack of an index in the kindle version).

It's a very wisely chosen and various collection of poems ranging from 1300 to 1994 and sorted by date rather than by author - so you can dive in a certain period if you feel like it, or just read in a sequence and see how the language and the themes evolved. I've been perusing it for months and I keep on finding gems inside.

It's pretty cheap too.

I really like this one. I think the compiler is a Baha'i for disclosure's sake, but I've gifted it to Muslim, Christian, and other friends who have appreciated it. It does include some Hindu and Native American prayers that while not explicitly polytheistic might not appeal to all monotheists.

Thanks for the link!

I think you would be interested in this book of Christian Mystic poetry.

For Lovers of God Everywhere: Poems of the Christian Mystics
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401923879/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_K2nTBbV9115BM

The Canterbury Tales was extremely popular for at least a century after the author died. It has also been copied and reprinted for the last 600 years? Please recommend one other book from the late 1300's which you found more enjoyable.

I found the Canterbury Tales to be funny, surprising, and occasionally shocking. I wouldn't recommend reading them in the original language, but a modern translation is a great source of information on the culture of late Medieval England. The irreverent attitude toward the church and the focus on cuckoldry alone are invaluable contributions to anyone's understanding of the period.

For a more 'Medieval Literature' folklore focus:

• Broadview Anthology of Medieval Literature
  
• Beowulf, translation by Seamus Heaney
  
• L'Morte De Arthur, Sir Thomas Mallory
  
• Idylls of the King, Alfred Lord Tennyson
  
• The Gawain Poet (including Sir Gawain and the Green Knight)
  
• Edmund Spenser's Poetry, including The Faerie Queen
  
• Marie De France's Poetry
  
• The Canterbury Tales
  
  If you'd like actual fiction/novel recommendations, I'm happy to give those as well! Just say the word.
  

This is by far my personal favorite translation of Inferno. I've tried a couple of other translations, they just weren't as poetic. I also like that this has the original Italian side-by-side with the English, and the illustrations are interesting.

Here are a few book resources and a web source:

Oxford Guide to Chaucer: The Canterbury Tales, edited by Helen Cooper: Descriptions of each tale, along with discussion of sources, critical context, structure, and themes. Indispensable if you're just getting started with Chaucer.

The Wife of Bath, edited by Peter Beidler: Part of the series Case Studies in Contemporary Criticism, this book only includes the portions of CT that deal with the Wife of Bath, but it also includes descriptions of how the major theoretical schools deal with this tale, including an essay for each. So you'll get the perspectives of a deconstructionist, a new historicist, a feminist, a marxist, and a psychoanalitic critic on this one tale. Really useful if you're looking to get a wide range of critical perspectives.

And, of course, see if you can find the Norton Critical Edition of the Canterbury Tales, edited by Kolve and Olson. These always include a number of contextual readings, sources and analogues, and critical articles.

Hopefully, your library will have at least one of these books. Any of them would be useful. I've linked the Amazon pages of each for more details.

For a web source, check out the Harvard Chaucer page. Interlinear translations, critical introductions, bibliographies, and sources and analogues for each tale. A really complete site.

Good luck!

It depends on what you want to read in Middle English. My medieval lit class last semester (full disclosure--I'm a classics major, not English) got me reading Chaucer's Middle English pretty easily. It really isn't so bad after the initial learning curve. I recommend getting this edition of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales--there seem to be some cheaper used copies--and just reading it. It's pretty well glossed, and although Chaucer's ME can be deceptively easy (a good number of false friends), it's more accessible than, say, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I'm no expert, but if Chaucer is your goal, read Chaucer. If he's not, I can't really help you, unfortunately--hopefully someone more knowledgeable will comment.

When I first studied the Inferno, I used my professor's translation. It's formatted in the original poetic form but doesn't retain the poetry itself and contains notes and introductions for every Canto. It's very much a translation for learning the poem targeted at people who haven't read it before, or who want a solid base with the Inferno.

Consider that a plug for the Simone translation. It's little-known and won't wow any serious scholars, but anyone who's interested in starting work on the Comedy might want to pick it up. I believe his translation of Purgatorio is either out or will be out soon, as well.

I'd recommend Anthony Esolen's translations: https://www.amazon.ca/Inferno-Dante/dp/034548357X/

It's a little more recent so the translated language is easier to get into. His annotations also tend to deal with things on the character, historical, and literary level. Older translations (i.e. Mandelbaum) tended to deal with more esoteric things like Medieval Astrology, which I found less relevant.

The first edition (1667) of Paradise Lost was split into ten books, while the second edition (1674) divided the text into twelve books, splitting the original seventh and tenth book. The second, twelve book edition follows the more traditional Virgilian epic model, and it is this twelve book layout that you will most frequently find today.
The primary difference between modern editions of the text should be the footnotes. Various editors will focus of differing aspects of the text in their footnotes (biblical, historic, lyrical, whatever). Reviews of the edition you posted mentioned that it didn't number the lines or include footnotes. Maybe try this edition instead: http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Regained-Signet-Classic-Poetry/dp/0451527925/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413078696&sr=1-2&keywords=paradise+lost+and+paradise+regained otherwise Norton is always good

The copy I have is this

But the Loeb Classics editions are great as well.

I recommend the Allen Mandelbaum translation. It's very faithful to the text, but also readable, and is printed alongside the original poem.

I just bought a nicely bound Longfellow version with these illustrations at Costco. As well as a pork roast and dog food.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1607109913/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

I recommend this edition of the Inferno. John Ciardi does a wonderful translation. While not every stanza rhymes Ciardi manages to write with a similar iambic pentameter found in the original. At the end of each Canto ("Chapter") Ciardi includes footnotes for every word and reference the reader might not understand (I know I sure didn't) as well as summaries at the beginning of each Canto so you know exactly what the Hell you're reading.

this is the edition I'm using with my students right now and they seem to be pretty into it.

I believe that is the same version that I read, but my version didn't have the second two books in the trilogy. Here is the version I have: The Inferno (Signet Classics) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0451531396/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_WKYCAbM8M328J. If I had to bet, I would say that the version you linked has the chapter summaries as well.

Sure, here ya go. The Inferno (Signet Classics) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0451531396/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_lvCgzb224412C

Not really what you are looking for, but it is somewhat related and may be of interest to someone: The Penguin Book of English Verse is an anthology of poetry sorted chronologically, rather than by author.

The concept is that you can get a feeling of what kind of verse the public would hear/read and how the language and the themes would evolve as the years went on. But one could read it backwards by starting with contemporary poets and ending with the Middle English verse of 1300s (there are notes for the most difficult words).

It's number one in British and Irish Poetry!

I am fond of Dorothy Sayers verse translation, but not everyone likes it--and she did not finish it.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Divine-Comedy-Part-Classics/dp/0140440062/

Anthony Esolen's translation is very readable:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034548357X

Baby Rudin, The Inferno, DPV

> Because court chose to put them there

Yes, as punishment.

I do not agree that hell is some sort of "cosmic prison" precisely because its purpose is not punitive. Punishment in the Christian system exists so that one can be reformed, so that one might have the impetus to change one's ways and become a better person (in that sense Purgatory is far more analogous to a prison: it is punishment for sins with the purpose of being corrective—we do call prisons "correctional facilities," after all).

Yet hell does not exist to reform the sinner. Reform in hell is impossible, because one's renunciation of love is absolute. Rather, hell is the unfortunate logical necessity of the Christian soteriological framework. If we are free beings then we must be able to make the free choice not to love. Given that human beings are immortal, there must be a post-earthly place for those who choose not to love; hence, hell.

Another work to recommend would be Dante's Inferno, in which that greatest of Italian poets imagines that those in hell are so attached to their sins that they would choose the sin over anything else, even over the possibility of love.