Reddit mentions of If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him! The Pilgrimage of Psychotherapy Patients

> key point where I suspect we disagree, and that's the question of antifeminism.
> Now, a great deal depends on how you define the term.

Which, in turn, depends on how you define "feminism" :)

> If you define antifeminism as 'criticism of feminism,' then maybe we're in broad agreement.

That's what I meant and, more specifically, the feminism as practised (on the grounds that what a thing does is more important than the thing's label).

> But if you define it (as I do) as 'the vilification of feminism' (i.e. casting feminism as 'the enemy' or 'THE problem confronting the modern West'), then we part ways.

Oh, no. I don't think vilification or vituperation in general is helpful. I think Clementine Ford is a dreadful person, not because she's a feminist, but because of the things she does and says in the name of feminism. I don't want to see that replicated on either side.

> I think the public dominance of MRA discourse by antifeminists (principally through AVfM and Paul Elam) has done tremendous harm to the MRM.

I disagree (but, fair disclosure, I'm associated with AVfM, though I should add that I'm not speaking for the organisation).

I think that what AVfM did was necessary in the past in order to get men's issues into the public sphere. Indeed, but for AVfM, The Red Pill movie would never have been made. AVfM is responsible for organising two conferences and co-presenting a third, all of which have been as successful as could ever have been hoped for, which is no small thing in itself.

That's not to say that everything that AVfM has ever done has worked out (and such is the nature of any ground-breaking endeavour; win some, lose some), but I think that AVfM's past approach has served a specific purpose and the org has got more right than wrong. Note that Paul published a change of mission of June 14; I'd link it, but I'm unsure whether AVfM links get automod'd here.) I also think that AVfM is not suitable for everyone and for every purpose.

> It's elevated some of the most toxic voices in the movement

Like who?

> who seem almost happy to seemingly validate the worst caricatures that their antiMRA opposite numbers (like David Futrelle) come up with.

Meh, MRAs will get caricatured no matter what. If it weren't AVfM, it'd be some other non-
or anti-feminist. I don't really see that the opinions of muckrakers like Futrelle count for an awful lot, but I suppose a lot of feminists would say the same wrt AVfM.

> I can certainly understand some of the anger that antifeminists have towards the feminist movement

One of the things that people often get wrong about AVfM is what comments are allowed and why. There's always been a policy of permitting a degree of venting so some of the comments there (especially in the early days) can be pretty strong stuff, but they don't necessarily reflect the views of AVfM or its staff. I acknowledge that the distinction is not superficially obvious and that can be a problem.

> all too often they couch their criticisms in terms that even a minimally politically sensible person would recognize as completely self-defeating

Another thing that a lot of people get wrong about AVfM is that its articles are deliberately provocative and intended to invoke outrage. Several examples:

• The infamous Bash a Violent B article (the proper title of which was "If you see the Jezebel on the road, run the b down" which is a play on the 1972 book about psychotherapy, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!") was a combination of parody and criticism of a Jezebel article entitled "Have You Ever Beat Up A Boyfriend? Cause, Uh, We Have" that made light of DV against men.
  
• The article about how women like to be raped was an illustration of the danger of evidence by citation (in the final two paragraphs, it goes on to say that none of the above is true and none of the cited articles exist).
  
• The article entitled, "I'll decide if you were raped, not you" was commentary on Mary Koss's attitudes and methodology in her research for Ms. Magazine and later the CDC. You get the idea.
  
• The article about unconditionally voting to acquit as a juror was about the lack of evidential transparency in rape trials.
  
  > a fair number of AVfM-allied voices are piggybacking on the MRM as an indirect (and sometimes quite direct) way to attack the left
  
  Which is ironic, given that partisanship is discouraged if not largely banned at AVfM, and it's been a constant position that trying to make gender politics about the left-right partisan dichotomy is misguided and futile.
  
  There is much that both the left and the right to answer for, which is another reason why AVfM regards neither political wing as being friends to men and boys (albeit for different reasons in each case).
  
  > and are actually indifferent (or even hostile) to genuine gender equality for men.
  
  I'm not aware of ever having actually seen that, but it's possible.
  
  > I think antifeminists often have valid criticisms of feminism that deserve to be heard. But as long as they dominate the public face of the movement
  
  This is essentially a tone argument. That's not to say that there isn't valid criticism to make regarding tone, but that's also why I said that there's a place for confrontationist voices (such as AVfM) alongside accommodationist voices.
  
  The problem is that the confrontationist voices will tend to get all the attention because there's more opportunity for salacious headlines and, in fact, that was the whole point: to get attention and get the issues on the table. If as a result people say, "well, they have a few valid points but, gee, what a bunch of arseholes" then mission significantly accomplished. A subject that more measured voices such as those of Erin Pizzey, Warren Farrell and Tom Golden have been trying for decades to get into public discussion without success now is.
  
  It's unfortunate that the only way to get any attention was by negative means, but negative attention is better than no attention, at least, initially.
  
  > the MRM will remain marginalized
  
  Again, I don't think it makes a great deal of difference how you go about it, the MRM will always be marginalised (either by dismissal or being ignored outright) until social attitudes have changed enough to admit that men and boys face problems, too.
  
  > in neoliberal discourse
  
  And again, I think trying to introduce partisan politics into gender politics is a big mistake. If you insist that liberalism is the only valid lens through which to view men's issues, then you exclude roughly half the population from the debate.
  
  (BTW, I'm not sure you mean neoliberalism; that's a school of economic/free market thought.)
  
  > Let me add that I'm well aware that there are significant feminist voices that are extremely uncomfortable with allowing a genuine male perspective disrupt their vision of gender "equality,"
  
  Right, and Warren Farrell (thrice elected to the NYC chapter board of NOW and, last I knew, still a card-carrying member of NOW) is a perfect example of this. At 0:24:04 in TRP, Farrell said,
  
  >>> I was making a very significant amount of money speaking around the world on behalf of women’s issues alone. I went through a period of forming men’s groups and then, when I listened to them, I thought, “Well gee, this would be really helpful to present to audiences so they can understand not only women’s side but men’s side too” because I was totally in the feminist camp.
  >>> And immediately, I saw my standing ovations drop. I started hearing that there were people saying, “don’t invite him there to speak with us” and pretty soon I had very few college and university speaking engagements.
  
  > and they're quite happy with shoot-yourself-in-the-foot MRAs like Paul Elam being the face of the MRA brand.
  
  Yes, because it suits their agenda and their narrative to paint MRAs as "extremists" like Paul (appears) to be — but they're not the ones the MRM needs to or can convince about the validity of men's issues. The MRM has always been largely about presenting a dissident view of gender equality to the public (which is why getting attention is so important) and even if the tone that some orgs use is unappealing, the public at large is broadly smart enough to see past those feminists' rhetoric and make up their own minds if given a contrasting perspective.
  
  > The challenge for the MRA is to promote voices like Cassie Jaye
  
  Of course, we did, but that didn't necessarily do Cassie any favours because now she's labelled as an anti-feminist and an MRA tool or stooge — none of which is true, of course — but had MRAs not promoted the film by arranging public screenings that generated such media controversy (especially in Australia), then chances are many fewer would have seen the film.
  
  The number of comments I've seen on such media articles to the effect that they weren't going to see it or had never and would never have heard of it but for said coverage and now wanted to see it was quite remarkable, and I bet that for every comment like that there would have been 10 or 100 (maybe even more?) who did so without comment. There must have been a reason why TRP did so well on Amazon and Google Play's top sellers lists.
  
  > negate the narrative of MRAs = misogynists that some high profile feminists are pushing.
  
  I honestly don't think that anything anybody, no matter how moderate, can say to negate that narrative because at best they'll just be ignored, at worst they'll be tarred with the same brush as "extremist" MRA groups and in either case, the "MRM = misogyny" narrative suits those feminists' agendas and so they'll carry on regardless.

I believe he was referring to this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Meet-Buddha-Pilgrimage-Psychotherapy-Patients/dp/0553278320

Written by Sheldon B. Kopp. Here's the amazon link.

> I want one that will change my thought process and dismantle my negative thought

You're basically asking for a koan. =)

Unfortunately I cannot give you that, but I know a book that could point you in the right direction by showing you there's no direction at all: “If You Meet Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”.

If you're in to reading, I've found this to be a helpful book: http://www.amazon.ca/Meet-Buddha-Pilgrimage-Psychotherapy-Patients/dp/0553278320/ . The author takes an intelligent look at surpassing many human struggles through insight, providing a lot of 'cold truths' that you won't hear in the real world that are really helpful for adapting to personal challenges. I've found it to be particularly pertinent at your age, especially when learning to not care what other people think of me.

In terms of becoming 'alpha' - be careful and question if you want to be someone who you are not. If you are an emotional person, why try and hide those emotions? For me, I was once so fixated on not being a 'bitch' that I closed myself off to a lot of people and became someone who I did not want to be. There is a balance to be found in expressing yourself as you are, but also becoming more assertive and dominant in a social environment. The two can coexist, and it is infact much better for all when they do.

Read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Meet-Buddha-Pilgrimage-Psychotherapy-Patients/dp/0553278320/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517780120&sr=8-1&keywords=if+you+meet+the+buddha+on+the+road+kill+him

I don't know if you need to "get in touch with yourself" per se. It seems as though you have a fairly good understanding and connection with yourself, but simply don't like what you've found.


The suggestion of travel seems to have many up-votes at the moment, but I don't know if I really agree that would help you. Travelling to foreign places will force you to pay attention, but if you can't learn to pay attention in familiar or mundane environments then you lack one of the most important skills a person can have. If I ventured a guess as to the problems you have failed to mention I would guess boredom, and travel would most likely not resolve that when you return from your trips, nor would it resolve the problems you have specifically mentioned. If anything travel would give you a temporary sense of resolution from your boredom, leading to a travelling addiction.


I would suggest you develop a habit of breaking your habits and routines, and your pre-conceived notions. The following list includes a few suggestions, but keep in mind you cannot drastically alter your life all at once as you need to incorporate changes (perhaps every two weeks) in to your life slowly otherwise you may feel overwhelmed.

• Try taking alternative routes to and from work, or other locations. If possible leave a little earlier than you need to so you can take routes you've never taken before and will have the opportunity to absorb the details of these new surroundings.
  
  
• When you go for walk, remember to look up. All too often people look down or straight ahead, but if you happen to live in a city or even a nice town the buildings in your area most likely have some interesting features above your normal line of vision.
  
  
• If you make a conclusion as to the purpose of something you have noticed, comment to or ask someone about it if they would likely have more information about it. They may very well provide you with a response that defies your initial conclusion.
  
  
• Take half an hour each day to listen to an educational audio book, such as one of those from The Teaching Company, preferably on a subject you know very little about.
  
  
• Take half an hour each day to read a book, either fiction or non-fiction, but preferably of critical acclaim in its respective genre. Venture in to genres that normally don't interest you.
  
  
• Engage in zazen for twenty minutes each day.
  
  
  Regarding your family and friends: meaningful relationships certainly help make life more enjoyable, but without knowing about your pre-existing relationships I cannot offer you any advice. Perhaps your family and friends treat you maliciously, in which case you should considered finding new friends or seeking relationship advice from a counsellor. On the other hand perhaps you simply haven't given your relationships the proper effort, in which case you should consider how you may feel about yourself and your relationships should your family or friends die in the near future, because they will likely die sooner than you expect.
  
  
  Regarding your career: perhaps someone can offer you better advice than I as my career has troubled me as well. I have learned that you don't always love what you easily have proficient skill at, and sometimes you have to really work hard to develop your skill for those things you love to do with your time. I've also learned that when you can help people with your work it can fulfill you in a subtle, yet deep and long-lasting manner.
  
  
  If at all possible I would suggest you read If You Meet The Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!, Zen in the Martial Arts and Your Brain: The Missing Manual, as they have proven quite helpful to me. Additionally the documentary Maybe Logic has proven quite helpful to me. These products may not prove helpful to you at all, but if you can find a book or movie that does help you it doesn't hurt to read or watch it whenever you feel yourself slipping back to your old habits. With time you should find yourself reading or watching that book or movie less and less, as you begin to develop some skill with your new life.

If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him! The Pilgrimage of Psychotherapy Patients by Sheldon B. Kopp

This one I found when someone left it behind on an airplane. You can also see it on the table of the book sale in the movie The Ice Storm. As a psychotherapy patient, maybe I should read it. This one I ran across while researching artwork by William Steig. Looks like the author has a bunch of stuff but I've never read him. Anyway the 70s seems like a weird decade.

Right on. Just make sure to differentiate between psychology and psychiatry. Psychiatry is the study of the interactions of drugs within the brain in particular. The difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist is that a psychiatrist is a medical doctor, and can therefore prescribe medication.

Gestalt therapy is a particular strain of humanistic psychotherapy. If you appreciate the Gestalt Prayer (as do I), you need need need to read the book 'If You See The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him!' I'll send you a copy if you can't afford it and promise to at least try to read it. It is not Gestalt, per se, but its theme of personal interdependence and personal journey resonates strongly with Perls's prayer. And it's instantly accessible while still being mind-expanding. And to be clear, it is NOT a self-help book.

Si t'es pas trop une quiche en anglais, avant de te foutre en l'air lis ce livre :https://www.amazon.fr/Meet-Buddha-Road-Kill-Psychotherapy/dp/0553278320

Ensuite va voir un psy si besoin. J'ai été dans la même situation que toi (drogue/fond du trou/...). J'en ai chié. Et maintenant après pas mal d'introspection et de remise en question je peux dire que je suis l'homme le plus heureux du monde, et ça valait le coup. S'apitoyer sur des experiences passées plutôt que de les utiliser comme une force est une perte de temps. On va tous mourrir à la fin, c'est dommage d'arrêter le voyage plus tot sans avoir découvert plus de choses qui sont à la portée de tous (et même si t'es petit, moche et poilu, ça plaira toujours à quelqu'un).

Why not just read the book?

It really doesn't matter how you spend your time, because there is no meaning to life. Having said that, meaning does refer to life so you've got to ask yourself if you're satisfied spending a great deal of your time living the same life almost everyone else has through widespread video games, television, movies and literature. In the event that you are not satisfied with such a cookie-cutter existence, and that you crave to live your own life, then might I suggest you limit your media consumption to educational programs and focus on developing your knowledge and skills, and explore the (offline) world you live in.

Personally I suggest you consider taking the following courses of action:

• Develop your knowledge and skills of a scientific discipline with the intent of working toward resolving problems facing humanity. Understand that this may require schooling, and you will definitely have to put a lot of hard work and time in to learning either way. There's more problems every day, so you really shouldn't have a hard time choosing a field to work in, although if you honestly think you could assist in combatting desertification or water pollution, these are issues that I personally feel are of the utmost importance at the moment.
  
  
• Educate yourself on topics of psychology, particularly the work of Carl Jung and Sheldon B. Kopp, but understand some of their work may be considered dated by today's standards or even incorrect in light of new information. Educate yourself on this topic with the intention of learning how to improve your treatment of other people, and so that you can recognize poor behaviour on your part in order to develop better behaviour. I suggest you start with Man And His Symbols and If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him! After you have finished with these classics educate yourself on the neurosciences. Your Brain: The Missing Manual is a good book to start with in this regard.
  
  
• When travelling within your own city, leave your home earlier than you normally would. This will allow you to take longer, alternative routes to your destination so that you can get to know your city a little better. Don't spend all of your time looking straight ahead or down at the ground, but rather look up from time to time to see what is above your regular line of vision.
  
  
• Don't get addicted to travel. People love travelling because it forces them to pay attention to their surroundings, as it is essentially new, but the life of travel is a life of fleeting fantasy. Learning how to pay attention within your own community and home is an essential skill to develop, and it's one of the best ways to combat boredom.
  
  
• Attempt to utilize sources such as The Teaching Company as your primary venues for entertainment.
  
  
• Watch Maybe Logic.
  
  
• Work on developing healthy, enjoyable relationships with your friends and family. This will require you to admit when you have been at fault, and to silently take the "higher ground" at times. At other times it will require you to know when someone should not be a part of your life.
  
  
• Discover how you can became an active member of your community for which you can contribute to. If possible consider engaging in volunteer work, but understand that volunteer work is something that requires dedication otherwise your occasional volunteer work can in fact be hurtful. Also consider bringing your friends to community events, for which websites like Craig's List and MeetUp.com often have appropriate listings for.