Reddit mentions: The best pentecostal & charismatic books

> We are looking at the same things and calling it two different names

Amen to that! So much battle is fought over different names of the same concepts.

> "the gifts of the Spirit" have ceased, but "the miraculous gifts of the Spirit," or more accurately, "the sign-gifts of the Spirit" have ceased from the church.

Oh definitely! I totally understand this position as well. It's silly for people to say that God no longer gives gifts of, say, wisdom.

> there are no other texts that seemingly command spiritual gift-seeking.

I would agree with you on the surface based on explicit general commands to the Church. But if you're wanting to challenge this view, this book has shown me the huge depth of "fan to flame the gifts" type comments throughout Scripture:

https://www.amazon.com/Protestant-Theology-Tradition-Biblical-Emphasis/dp/098195264X/

I'm still in "shock and awe" from reading the book. I read it about 6 months ago, and have read it 3 times since and can honestly say it's the most life-changing book I've read outside of the Bible. I'm not quite ready to defend the position because I'm still soaking it in - but Dr. Ruthven shows pretty solidly the traces of "seek prophecy" and "pursue God's miraculous empowering presence" throughout the entire Bible. He rightly points out that the most common effect of the Holy Spirit interacting with humanity throughout the entire Bible is prophecy and revelation.

He's also the author of what has been considered by some to be the most authoritative refutation of cessationism (particularly Warfield's approach) written to-date. In 25 years, virtually none of his main arguments have been attacked by cessationist scholars.

https://www.amazon.com/Cessation-Charismata-Protestant-Post-biblical-Miracles-Revised/dp/0981952623/

> The Corinthians had allowed some weird stuff in the name of spiritual gifts (12:3)

Amen to that. I heard an interesting comment that went something like this, "the Corinthians weren't the only church to have the charismata...but they were the church needing a correction in the area." I think this one may be a little to far out there, but I heard one commentator say that some of the Corinthians may have even been worshiping the "god of words of knowledge" and the "god of healing" and that's why Paul says "same Spirit" over and over. Speculative and I haven't been able to substantiate that, but it entertained my itching ears nonetheless :p

> I believe that one can fulfill the command to "earnestly desire the higher gifts" in Ch. 12. by either prioritizing teaching as a member of the local church, or b) desiring the teaching gift (either through trying to teach themselves or desiring to benefit from the teaching gift) individually.

Very interesting point, I'll think more about that. It would seem to me that the highest gift in this list is apostleship and that should be our top desire - be a servant who builds the church.

John Wimber made a very interesting observation in this passage. He pointed out that the context of this passage is regarding the display of the charismata in a corporate gathering. We don't have much Scripture at all that discusses stuff like ministry on the streets or personal devotion, so there very well could be a different ranking of gifts in different situations.

> The emphasis in the chapter is on the supremacy of the word of God for clear edification. Today, that looks like expository preaching, IMO.

This is where I think we'd depart a bit. I do see a clear emphasis in chapter 14 that primarily edifying gifts which instruct should be spoken. However, the result of whatever the gift of "prophecy" is is that "an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."

Prophecy isn't really defined in Scripture as well as we'd like. But we know the clear result is "falling on his face". I haven't really seen that through the gift or office of teacher very often. There can be prophetic teaching that results in this in my opinion, however. Here's an example of what I would call prophecy:

• Article from Sam Storms spells out most charismatic beliefs regarding this gift: http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/prophets-and-prophecy
  
  
• A minister at my church was a guest preacher one day at another church in the city. During the middle of the sermon, he felt strongly that God said to him, "You need to stop preaching right now and tell someone that God has value for their life and that suicide is not the correct thing to do." He obeyed God and stopped the sermon and said exactly that and said that there was one person who this message was for. The person came up at the end of the sermon and said that they were going to kill themselves that day and that they decided to stop by this church to see if God is real before ending it all. Instead, they came to Christ that day.
  
  The secrets of the heart were laid bare and the person basically fell down and said, "God is among you" - the textbook response to authentic prophecy. In my opinion, this isn't teaching - this is a deep revelation that shakes someone to the core and forces them to come to the conclusion that God is real and that they must make a decision about it - approach in faith or shrink back. I could give many more examples of this, but they all follow the same pattern - God revealed something, someone spoke it out, and someone was shaken to the core and basically said "God is among us!" Teaching can do this, but this seems like a secondary effect rather than the primary meaning of the words as I interpret them!
  
  I think this is Paul's point in wanting everyone to prophesy. Imagine if an atheist walked into a church gathering where 1,000 people operated at the same level of prophecy that the minister at my church did in that specific situation. He wouldn't even have a chance - he'd be saved in very short order:
  
  
• "You're Tom right? Two weeks ago I dreamed that you would be here today. The reason you are here is that you are seeking clarity for the hurt you suffered at the age of 7. God wants you to know that it is not your fault what you experienced..."
  
  > Adulting is tough, this post took me 2.5 hours to complete due to interruptions, and this is my chill day haha.
  
  Haha, I hear ya man! Time is a scarce commodity!

There's a difficult part in Hosea 2:16-17. Here is the ESV:

> 16 “And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer will you call me ‘My Baal.’ 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more.

The idea here is the Hebrew word Baal means husband/master, but was also the name of a pagan god. Thus people who prayed to that name, could claim to be praying to the Lord, because the Lord is their master. It must have made relations smoother with all the Baal worshipers they interacted with, and it would have allowed them to get more wisdom and teachings, because oftentimes the Bible seems so short, and there are so many things it doesn't mention. Yet God rejected this practice and admonished them to not use that name for him anymore.

On the other hand, in Acts 17, Paul comes across one of the altars to "an unknown god" that was common in the Graeco-Roman empire. They used these altars because oftentimes disaster would be associated with worshiping the wrong god and so it was better to hedge if you weren't sure. Paul does not admonish them, but compliments their religiosity:
> Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.

Then Paul proclaims to them the real object of their worship, the Lord:

> 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

> 24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b]

>29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Amos Yong is one of the most interesting writers on pluralism in Christianity today. His writing might interest you:

https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Pluralism-Today-Reassessing-Missiological-ebook/dp/B017J89YVQ
https://www.amazon.com/Religious-Pluralism-Commission-Theological-Christian/dp/0981958281
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Impasse-Pneumatological-Theology-Religion/dp/1498204651
https://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Poured-Out-Flesh-Pentecostalism-ebook/dp/B005OYUIIG

I find that Christianity is difficult for people to accept who reject the doctrine of original sin / total depravity / brokenness. This is part of why Christianity has made so little progress in Japan. I will be interested in whatever answers you find in your journey.

For me, I see glimpses of my brokenness restored in my new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), yet even as sanctification continues, I don't see how it will ever be complete until Christ comes again and fully restores the New Kingdom. Furthermore I don't see how this new creation would be possible without God's grace.

Yet all of these concepts and words are packed with theological baggage and centuries of western philosophy and culture. Could satori (悟) be another way of saying born again? Could our earthly passions (煩悩) be another way of recognizing original sin? To me the gospel of LOVE and MERCY and GRACE makes this difficult to accept, but might there be a path there for someone else? I sure hope so. Because I want all to come to share in the wondrous gift of salvation. And antagonizing -- instead of attempting to understand and converse with -- other belief structures has caused a lot of historical problems and may not be the most righteous path.

However, my personal conviction is it is still only a path to God. Christ is the destination. After finding him, accepting his grace, and having a personal relationship with him--I believe that is more than enough. At that point the other things seem like distractions and tests, and their merits few.

Book nerd, reporting to duty! Some ideas to spice it up:


Christian Living

If you've done much searching in this area, you've doubtless come across Dr. Neil Anderson - and for good reason. Anderson is the best Christian Living author I've encountered. Head of the Practical Theology department at Talbot (same school as MacArthur) for a decade, all of Anderson's teaching and core material has been "approved" by the theology department at Talbot and rooted in real world experience. Anderson specializes in giving practical steps for getting right with God and becoming more like Christ. By far my favorite author in this genre. Some of his books which changed my life the most:

• Victory over the Darkness - Powerful. Walks you through what happened to your identity when you gave your life to Christ and gives practical ways to grow in sanctification.
  
  
• Freedom from Fear - If you've ever had issues with anxiety, this book will break it. For the first time in my life, I experienced "the peace that surpasses all understanding" through this book.
  
  
  Theology
  
  
• What's Wrong with Protestant Theology - This remains one of the best books I've ever read, regardless of genre. The author was a professor of Theology at Regent Theological (J.I. Packer's old school). In this book, Ruthven slaughters a few sacred cows in a quest to just see "what does the Bible say?" The basic problem is this - during the Reformation, the primary debate was over salvation: "what must I do to be saved and how much does it cost?" We focused so much on this question that we omitted many of the main themes of Scripture (namely the experiential aspects of the New Covenant). Ruthven ruthlessly marches through most of Bible to answer questions like: What does it mean to "know God"? What is "the word of God"? What does it mean to "be like Christ?" What am I supposed to do now that I'm saved? A masterpiece. One of the only books I've ever read that made me sit up, sweating and saying "oh my...he's right...woe is me."
  
  
  Evangelism
  
  A few years ago, I came across a list of the top 50 books which have shaped Evangelicals. I saw a book that interested me: Power Evangelism by John Wimber.
  
  
• Power Evangelism - This book is what actually got me up off my rear end and start doing real, in person evangelism. Not only that, this book motivated me to share Christ with others out of excitement. Led a few people to Christ, seen a few cool miracles - and it all started here.

For a pretty comprehensive book on the how the Holy Spirit is taught throughout the Bible and has been viewed throughout the history of Church, your one-stop-shop is Anthony Thiselton's The Holy Spirit: In Biblical Teaching, through the Centuries, and Today. One comment has already addressed Dr. Gordon Fee, and he is another go to scholar for doctrine related to the Spirit. Any of his books or commentaries would be good.

For more accessible material, Billy Graham actually wrote a little book on the Holy Spirit serval years ago that is pretty straightforward and helpful. Also, Francis Chan and J.D. Greear have written more recent books on the Holy Spirit.

To better understand the spiritual gifts I would recommend the works of Wayne Grudem or Sam Storms, as well as D.A. Carson's exposition of 1 Corinthians 12 -14.

If you would like a sermon series to listen to, I found this podcast helpful.

I hope that helps!

Not happy with my current karma. I'm looking to see it dramatically lowered. Please help me my Reformed brethren.

• First, I'd read Every Day a Friday by Joel Olsteen - as the reviews say - happiness is a blessing. You deserve to be happy.
  
• Next, I'd add in You're Supposed to Be Wealthy by Creflo Dollar - this will greatly alleviate any misgivings you have about wealth. More money, more better!!
  
• And to top it off, I'd square out your theology with Name It & Claim It! by Frederick K. C. Price - do you see a car you don't have but want? Name it and claim it! Do you want $1000 in the bank - blab it and grab it!
  
  I think that should be a good start. If you need any further theological references, I'd be happy to supply. There are many great works - we are just scratching the surface here.
  
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  Edit - who in the world upvoted me...lol wut

I have read two worth reading from the Favre era, they are old, you could probably by them for $5 including shipping.

Brett Favre For the Record This one was written in ~1997. It focuses heavily on Favre in school/falcons/Packers/rehab/Packers first super bowl. It is interesting read because of what a problem he had with drugs and alcohol early in his career like missing team photos and being hung over for minicamps. One great part is he talks about meeting Steve Young his first year about QB Club gathering and he asked him for an autograph for his daughter Brittney. Young blew him off and wouldnt sign it. The next year Favre was famous and Young came up to him and greeted him like an old pal.

Reggie White in the Trenches This one is pretty inspirational. I still remember Reggie talking about how there is always time to pursue your dreams, it is just realizing it.

Yo praying for you, too, rallfreedom, that you grow in the prophetic, to simply create space for intimacy, to hear from Holy Spirit, receive, interpret, obey, and share what He gives you to the people that Holy Spirit is already working on. Praying He gives you a community with humble, wise leadership who can create safe spaces to grow in the prophetic! And praying that this encourages you in your relationship with King Jesus, and that it blesses all those around you who are hungry for a touch from the Lord!

There are a few resources to start, but here's a good one as well:

https://www.amazon.com/Prophesy-Practical-Guidelines-Prophetic-Ministry/dp/1878327968

This book changed my life and my walk with the Lord. Because of this, my "personal relationship" with God is becoming more "personal" and "real".

https://www.amazon.com/Protestant-Theology-Tradition-Biblical-Emphasis/dp/098195264X/

This book has my highest praise.

Pentecostal Theology by Wolfgang Vondey. Reclaiming my Pentecostal roots and engaging with the emerging intellectual tradition arising from the movement.

Good thoughts. For reference it’s available on Amazon here: Receive The Holy Spirit https://www.amazon.com/dp/0912631244/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_wsADCbB55Q86A

Believe it or not... this is a merging point of science/philosophy.
Quantum physics would like to have a word with you regarding "How did the things that made life exist just appear".
I would recommend a book called Quantum Glory.

I think you should get this book. It's like 3 bucks and will clear a lot of things up with the bible contradictions and the old testament.

I mean after I read how the Hebrew and it's vocabulary not having passive verbs, it really put the Old Testament in a new light and I had not even read that book yet.

But still, even if you don't look deep into the bible like we try to and just take the bible literary. It still makes a lot of sense. You just have to understand it's context. Knowing and studying will get you there.

Take a look at my other post just talking about in the beginning and the fall of Lucifer. For some odd reason though the post got dug down and the commenter's were full of skeptics. So I didn't really get a good bible discussion out of it. I think it must have been the way I worded the title. Anywho, That is taking the bible literary and it makes a lot of sense. I don't see it any other way yet so that's why I was asking reddit. Tell me what you think?

Definitely look up Father Divine and whoever comes up linked to him on his Wikipedia page, but you might also want to look up some more general books about the Holiness movement and Pentecostalism--a lot of these figures were coming out of that general charismatic tradition. I haven't actually read these, but two books on my to-read list about this are Black Fire: One Hundred Years of African American Pentecostalism and Early Interracial Oneness Pentecostalism: G. T. Haywood and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World.

Azusa Street: They Told Me Their Stories

https://www.amazon.com/Azusa-Street-They-Their-Stories/dp/0977968804

Accounts of the miraculous power of Jesus Christ

http://www.amazon.com/Charismatic-Theology-St-Luke-The/dp/0801047781 The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke by Roger Stronstad

I read a little of it. I was a lot more freaked out by the books about hell that my mom urged me to read. Like this one. This lady didn't even die, it was just "revealed" to her.

I mean, not all forms of Christian universalism deny that hell exists. Some consider it to be something more like purgatory, but still an experience that nobody would want to go through. So on the surface, the notion that the author could have seen/experienced hell in some way does not on its own contradict universalism.

From the back cover:

>Heaven or hell? Over a period of forty days, God gave Mary K. Baxter visions of hell and commissioned her to tell all to choose life. Here is an account of the place and beings of hell contrasted with the glories of heaven. It is a reminder of the need each of us has for the miracle of salvation.

Soooo...did she heaven too, or just hell? The book emphasizes hell but it says it's contrasted with the glories of heaven. How would she know unless she went there too?

I've read two reviews just now which say the book portrays those in hell as being repentant, but Jesus telling them it's too late. If that's the base, then it sounds like the book's theology is in conflict with not just universalists but also most folks who do believe hell is eternal, since they would say those in hell either cannot repent or never will. The idea that they do repent in hell but Jesus turns his nose up at them is not one I have ever heard articulated, and just sounds extremely bizarre and suspect.