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Hi. I just wanted to update you. It's nearly 1am here, on Sunday morning, and I am just absolutely aghast at the amount of hatred and misinformation in this video. Rather than spend the next month writing a graduate level paper on Catholic Theology, I'm going to say a few things, and give you a few resources that should help you.

First - You should NEVER take a non-Catholic's definition of what Catholics believe. You shouldn't do that with any religion. This man, John MacArthur, is completely misinformed, and he has allowed this misinformation to fuel a level of vitriol that breaks my heart. It's painful to watch that video, because he is so wrong, and his congregation just eats it up. Apparently, he also enjoys being wrong, because according to Google, he's also a Young Earth Creationist.

Second - For someone who is supposed to be going through the sacraments this Easter, you are VERY poorly catechized. Not all, but a lot of his beliefs are part of a basic education in Catholicism, which you should have received as part of your RCIA classes. I don't know if your classes are poorly run, or if you just checked out because you were only doing this for your wife, but regardless, I don't think you've done even a modicum of research into the topic.

Third - You should only convert for yourself, not for anyone else. Not your wife, not your friends, not your parents. It should only be for you. Catholicism isn't just a religion. It's a culture. This isn't like most Protestant faiths, where your religion is like the color of your underwear (only those closest to you know it, and it has no bearing on your daily activities). Catholicism is a way of life. We have a liturgical calendar. We have acts we engage in outside of Mass. We have rote prayers, we have Reconciliation. Catholicism is a culture of humility and self-control, NOT self-aggrandizement. Becoming Catholic is accepting that all of creation exists, and it is not about you. This is extremely anathema to popular culture, and Protestant culture. You cannot come into Catholicism thinking that the exceptions to rules that Protestants made up for themselves are still in play. The Church is consistent, and painfully so.

Now, if you are still with me, and STILL interested in learning the truth about Catholicism, I am happy to provide you with resources.

First, if you haven't I suggest reading or watching the sermons of Venerable Fulton J. Sheen.
This is a link to a video where he explains the meaning of the Mass. I recommend you watch a lot of his videos. He was a kind, loving man, and in my opinion, was the Mr. Rogers of Catholicism.

I'm also going to recommend his books, especially World's First Love. It beautifully explains why we venerate (note, I said VENERATE, not worship) the Virgin Mary.

I also recommend the following books by Scott Hahn: Signs of Life: 40 Catholic Customs and Their Biblical Roots, and The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. Not to say his other works aren't great, but I think these will help you understand Catholicism as a culture a bit better.

I'd also like to recommend Theology for Beginners by F. J. Sheed, The Feast of Faith by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (aka Pope Benedict XVI), and The Spirit of Catholicism by Karl Adam.

This is by no means a definitive list, but it is somewhere to get you started. I suggest you consider taking some time, and praying about this, and actually invest yourself in studying the Faith. I am still waiting for your list of questions, and when I see it I'll be happy to answer them.

Good Luck on your faith journey, and may God be with you.

Welcome. Good luck on your path. Do know that faith ebbs and flows. Right now, you've had a powerful experience that moved you significantly--to a whole new faith. That's great. In a few months, or years, or maybe never, things may settle down and feel less powerful. But that doesn't mean they're less genuine. Be open to the journey and its ebbs and flows. Though if you're a fan of Ignatian spirituality you probably have a sense of that!

As far as books, I think The Anglican Way and Your Faith, Your Life are great introductions to the Anglican/Episcopal traditions. They are basic, but they might help you pick up some facts you're missing out on. For better understanding the Book of Common Prayer and liturgical worship, I'd recommend Inwardly Digest to start and the Commentary on the American Prayer Book if you really want to dive deep on specific aspects of the book. To understand the Nicene Creed, one of our primary statements of faith, try The Nicene Creed. It's written by a Catholic theologian but really helped me understand more pieces of this prayer that Christians share.

If you are interested in the more mystical/Ignatian modes of spirituality, both of these are Catholic but apply well to Anglicanism: Richard Rohr's Center for Contemplation in Action (love their daily reflections!) and many of the books by Father James Martin, SJ.

Lastly, read the Bible just a little bit every day! It will help you get more familiar with things. Try choosing a daily devotional like Sacred Space or Day by Day which will give you snippets of reading and reflection. It'll help you grow to understand scripture better.

I call myself a High Church Traditionalist apart from being a Reformed Baptist. Anybody: Presbyterians, Methodists, and even Charismatics can be High Church Traditionalists.

First, let me define my terms. To be "High Church" in this context is not to employ Ritualistic elements in worship, but to hold to a high view of the Church and worship. The rise of Evangelicalism in the United States has led to a disintegration in the quality of worship that the church does. Anything goes! No longer is there reverence in prayer in many Evangelical churches. I have heard some people pray over their food with "Thanks for the food, dude!". As if you can talk to God however you want with as little respect as you want. No longer is there Congregational singing in many Evangelical churches. A worship band gets on a large stage with fog machines and laser lights. It's more of a rock concert than a worship service. All of these things shifts the focus away from God and onto the devices and intentions of Men. To be a High Church Traditionalist is to advocate for purging the Church of this slaughter and return to Biblical forms of worship.

When I say that I am a Traditionalist, I do not mean that we should blindly follow traditions of Men. In my area (NE Alabama) it is fashionable to want to be "Old Fashioned". People want to be Old Timey simply because they think that the people who led the church when they were little (usually the 1950's) "had it right". Tradition is unavoidable, and all churches and denominations have their traditions. This is not necessarily a bad thing, though. Traditions can be healthy for a community, and can bring people together. Traditions develop structure and brings order. When it is bad is when we want to base these traditions on "the way we've always done things". When we develop our traditions, we should seek to pattern them on Biblical principles, the way that God intended them to be. Our worship should be patterned on how God wants to be worshipped. This is known as the Regulative Principle of Worship.

So, High Church Traditionalism is simply an attempt to move toward a Biblical Tradition that employs a high view of the church and scripture. If you want to read more:

A Primer on Worship and Reformation by Douglas Wilson

This is a really short book at only 72 pages. It took me a good Sunday evening to read it. This book was highly influential in my thought.

Principles of Worship: An Irenic Reformed Approach

Daymon Smith is the best you will find, especially if your friend is the brainy type. This series of interviews is long but worth the effort. Also, if your friend is patient, I would recommend they listen to the whole Mormon Stories interview with Daymon, episodes 149–52. Even though these interviews are six years old, they are still the best in-depth commentary on correlation. Daymon's writings, including Book of Mammon, were instrumental in my throwing the TSCC out of my life.

You might also recommend the chapter on correlation in Greg Prince's book, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.

edit: Your friend may also be interested to know that these two sources—Daymon Smith and Greg Prince—approach the topic of correlation from a faithful yet analytical perspective. For another faithful/analytical perspective, I'd recommend reading Matt Bowman's chapter on correlation in this book, or this essay. PM me if you want pdfs of the chapters by Bowman and Prince.

I think Pope Francis is sincere, but I also think that it is more complicated than merely "doing what is needed to heal the breach." The Schism is as much about people as it is about theology. Human beings and the relationships between them are complicated at the best of times. The self-understanding of these two communities has been distinct for so long that it is easier to argue than to find common ground. There are currently "Byzantine" Churches in communion with Rome and it hasn't worked out terribly well for a lot of them (though there have been bright spots).

If I might be so bold, the "liberal" people (I don't like that word, but I don't have another one) in both camps can hardly see the point in being separate, though they would like to change things in both their Churches in other ways that would make them unrecognizable. The challenge is to have the "conservative" people satisfied with the process and expected result of re-approachment, enough to establish common cause between them. A traditional Catholic has to see that the Orthodox showing up won't force them to budge on things that they are fighting with progressives in their own Church about. The same with the Orthodox. The famous resistor of "false union" Bishop Mark of Ephesus doesn't just appeal to those seeking to preserve the Orthodox faith, but also traditionally committed Catholics.

And what happens if the Catholics are willing to compromise on a great many things, but the Orthodox get difficult on some point? Would not the Catholics feel abused? "We've come all this way and it hurts us and you still won't give up on point 9?" This has been the problem with the Miaphysites. It looks like all the theological issues have been resolved, but we seem to be left with Saints and Anathemas on both sides that have rooted the problem beyond reconciliation. We seem to be "right there" except we have beloved saints on both sides that effectively said, "you can never go there." What do we do with these saints? How do we understand them?

As for something to read. There are several books depending on your interest in using big words. :)

Lossky would be the heavy weight: http://www.amazon.com/The-Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/

Though I much prefer Zizioulas, more approachable and puts apophatic theology in balance: http://www.amazon.com/Being-Communion-Personhood-Contemporary-Theologians/dp/0881410292/

Of course Bishop Timothy Ware's book is the usual "internet standard recommendation: http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-Way-Kallistos-Ware/dp/0913836583/

If you want something very approachable (almost no technical terms) and a little more "what does this mean" you might try an introduction to sacramental theology in general: http://www.amazon.com/For-Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/

And probably the least "theological" but I think this is both my wife and my favorite: http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Water-Wine-Oil-Experience/dp/1888212918/

That's fair. I can't say I believe in the Christianity I was raised in either. I was raised in a more fundamentalist atmosphere and have become more of an academic Christian.

I'm not sure if I think morality is relative, but I am pretty sure our understanding of it is relative. Maybe there is some morality that exists outside of context, but once we start applying it wholesale everything gets hazier. Nothing can be applied wholesale; we can only understand things in context because we only exist in context. But this may be my love for postmodern philosophy talking.

If you are still interested in studying the Bible, I would encourage looking at modern academic commentaries/articles (getting suggestions from a professor or pastor that you trust might be helpful) as well as exploring other more foreign Christian theologies, such as Eastern Orthodoxy. Some places to start might be a basic book on exegesis such as The Bible Doesn't Have to Be Hard to Read and good article on the JEDP theory. On the subject of Eastern Orthodoxy, some good accessible books are The Orthodox Way and For the Life of the World.

I really enjoyed Carl Sagan's The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God. I like how Sagan acknowledges the beauty in religion, but he also demonstrates the beauty of a scientific view of the universe and our place in it. It's a little less harsh or combative than other atheistic work I've read, but it's just as committed to truth.

Sometimes I wish I had said what he said when my parents were asking if I believed in God. He said something like, "If by God you mean an anthropomorphic supreme being, then I don't believe that that particular God exists. But if by God you mean the sum total of all of the laws of nature, then I believe that that God indeed does exist." It probably would have made things go more smoothly.

Well, the Divine Office was the first thing Calvin did away with (as well as with those who prayed it!), arguing that it was too much text to be intellegible. Actually, I have met many Reformed pastors still very opposed to Divine Office, wich surprised me, because in Catholic circles, it is admitted that "ecumenical vespers" are the favoured way of making liturgy during the Octave of Unity. Their argument is that it is too much Word of God, and that, in the church, only so much Word of God that we can explain in the sermon should be uttered. Therefore, praying 3 or 5 psalms one after the other are "pagan, vain and unnnecessary repetition". So, I find that interest in the Divine Office should lead you to question your theological opinions.

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That said, you have various options you may enjoy::

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- Use a simplified version of the Catholic Divine Office, with only the Temporal, that is, the 6 offices of the day during ordinary time. You'll get a Hymn, 3 psalms, and a scripture reading for each office, and no office of readings. You'll not find "bothersome" Catholic saints and doctrine in that! it is called Christian Prayer and should satisfy you in that it is very biblical. you can even find and abbreviated for of the abbreviated form called Shorter Christian Prayer that has only Lauds and Vespers.

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- There is a Lutheran Divine office called Daily Prayer of the Church.

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- And there is even a Presbyterian publication called Book of Common Worship: Daily Prayer.

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In any case this Facebook group should help you: Despite of its title, it is very ecumenical and joins people from all Christian denominations, dedicated to prayer the Hours.

Catholics (rightly) believe that there is ONE sacrifice of Christ by himself for the sins of the whole world. That ONE sacrifice is participated in (Greek: koinonia; [1 Corinthians 10:15-16]) as the faithful receive the Sacraments. It is NOT a "re-sacrifice" of Christ - it is a participation in the once for all sacrifice of Christ.

When Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me," he didn't use the every day word for "remember." Oh heck, instead of writing a long thing, I'm going to cut and paste from a book I wrote a while back, How Christians Worship, p. 240ff:

The second important biblical word is remembrance or remember. Thousands of churches around the world, which embrace the Zwinglian notion of the real absence of Christ in the bread and the wine, nevertheless have carved into their Communion tables, “Do this in remembrance of me” (quoting 1 Corinthians 11.24). If they knew what it meant, they might sandblast the words away.

The Greek word is anamnesis, and it doesn’t mean what most people think it means. It doesn’t mean to fondly remember a thing or to mentally recollect a past event. In fact, actualizing that definition is an impossibility for us. If I were to ask you, “Do you remember when Christopher Columbus planted the Spanish flag on a beach in the Bahamas and claimed it for Ferdinand and Isabela?” your answer would certainly be, “No.” You may know about it, but you don’t remember it because it happened on October 12, 1492, and you weren’t there! Neither do you remember Jesus dying on the cross. You weren’t there. You may know about it, meditate on in, believe it, and understand it, but you don’t remember it.

But anamnesis doesn’t mean to recollect an event. It means to “make present the past which can never remain merely past but becomes effective in the present.” The word comes over into English in the medical field: anamnestic reaction: “a renewed rapid production of an antibody on the second (or subsequent) encounter with the same antigen.”

I bet that is as clear as mud! So, unless you are nurse or a doctor, let me put it in plain English. An anamnestic reaction goes something like this: you are out enjoying a picnic with your sweetheart and a nasty old red wasp stings the living daylights out of you. Bang! Ouch! Right on the ear. What you didn’t know, because you’ve never been stung by a nasty old red wasp, is that you are deathly allergic to it. You swell up, turn red, your heart beats faster and you have to go to the emergency room for a shot lest you go into anaphylactic shock.

Five years later, you are out boating, enjoying a nice summer day with your sweetheart, and another nasty old red wasp sneaks up and hits you on your thigh. Only this time, something really strange happens: your ear swells up like it has just been stung too. It hasn’t of course; it was stung five years ago, but that sting from the past “happens again” and now it is like you have been stung twice. This, my friends, is an anamnestic reaction.

And this is the word Jesus used when he said, “Do this in remembrance - in anamnesis - of me.”

Every time we come to the Table, we experience a re-presentation of Christ and his sacrifice; we are entering into that once and for all singular offering of Christ to God which happened 2000 years ago on a hill outside Jerusalem, but which transcends time and space and is therefore eternal - we enter into the eternal moment of that singular sacrifice.

Very interesting discussion. A lot of different directions to go.

Before I offer mine, I would recommend two books: The Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer and The Shape of the Liturgy.

I would start by looking at the political reality that led to it. At the point Cramner was working on it, there were two main groups in English society (OK, there were a lot more than two, but I'm simplifying it a bit to highlight something): the common people who were generally rather uneducated in matter of theology but held passionately to their Catholic traditions, and an educated elite who wanted to move the CoE into Reformed theology.

The BCP was a mash-up of these things. Not in a sense of a compromise; nor of taking a little of this and a little of that, but of taking a radical reformed theology and wrapping it in a cloak of Catholic practice to make it palatable to the people - because otherwise they would have led an armed rebellion over it.

And so you have some interesting contradictions. You have a very Catholic liturgy (especially in the first couple of editions), whose prayers imply doctrines (like the real presence) that are denied later in the very reformed Articles of Faith, which themselves recommend as authoritative the book of homilies, which again often proclaims those Catholic ideas.

It is this sort of muddiness and ambiguity in belief combined with minute specificity in liturgy that led to some of the more unique aspects of Anglicanism. Where practice was all-important, but belief less so. It led, on the one hand, to a great diversity of belief that any other Church would have shut down, and, on the other, to great theological minds (like Newman), eventually going elsewhere.

>I just kind of hate the idea that we are all just a bunch of bouncing neurons reacting to stimuli, that there is likely no heaven or anything after death, and that everything... juts barely or doesn't matter.

You are experiencing an existential crisis. Religious spoon-feeds meaning and purpose to its adherents. Reality doesn't give a shit about you or anything else. Is it any wonder so many people choose the safe, comforting lies of religion? It takes courage and a strong degree of self-assuredness in oneself to face an uncaring universe without a mythology to fall back on.

You could go through the large body of works by Existentialist philosophers to discover the path to defining your own meaning and purpose in life, but I'll warn you now it is not a quick, easy process. It's well worthwhile and I encourage everyone to study Existential philosophy, but if you're hurting right now, taking a shortcut peace of mind is understandable.

My recommendation is to read some of Carl Sagan's works. He kinda flips the existential question on its head. Instead of being left adrift without a purpose, he illustrates in beautiful detail just how insanely awesome the world around (and inside) us is. Sure, there's no purpose to life, but isn't it fucking amazing that I get to partake in it for the better part of a century?

Through Sagan's writings, I found that the remaining hooks Christianity had in me completely faded to nothing. Since there is no afterlife, and I only get a finite amount of time to experience life, I should make the most of what time I've got. Irrelevant shit is easier to recognize and I don't stress out over the things that don't matter or that I can't change.

As for where to start reading Sagan, there's a text called, "The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God," that seems like a perfect fit for your situation, but I haven't read it and can't vouch for it. My introduction to Sagan was "Dragons of Eden" followed by "Broca's Brain" and "The Demon-Haunted World." Look through his books and decide what makes sense for you.

Chapell, in Christ Centered Worship, argues that a basic pattern in worship can be seen to emerge after the Reformation in how the Reformers structured worship that "mov[es] worshipers down a path structured to parallel the progress of grace in the life of a believer." (p. 118)

To that end he sees a basic pattern emerge that looks like

• Recognition of God's Character (Adoration)
  
  
• Acknowledgment of Our Character (Confession)
  
  
• Affirmation of Grace (Assurance)
  
  
• Expression of Devotion (Thanksgiving)
  
  
• Desire for Aid in Living for God (Petition and Intercession)
  
  
• Acquiring Knowledge for Pleasing God (Instruction)
  
  
• Communing with God and His People (Communion)
  
  
• Living unto God with His Blessing (Charge and Benediction)
  
  Later on, he lists baptisms as an element of instruction (p.149) so they'd take place with (probably rather than instead of) a sermon and used as a teaching time as well as a celebration of the sacrament proper.

>The copy of Crisis of Conscience that I have is a first edition hardcover. I see that there are many revisions of this work. What has changed between the first edition and the fifth edition?

I just gave a 1st edition to another redditor on here, & have a 4th edition in my possession.

And now I can't find any sort of preview of the 1st edition online...

In my copy, there are black-&-white photos in a few of the early chapters. As I recall, the 1st edition lacked those. Also, the last part of the book has a 13th chapter entitled "Perspective". Looking at the dates of his comments in that chapter, I see that many took place well past the original printing's date of 1983. So likely much of that chapter (which contains an overview, plus comments on developments within the Watchtower Society during the 1990's & into the early 2000's) focuses on developments subsequent to the 1st (2nd & 3rd) printings.

>I may have misread things (and it's certainly possible since I'm unfamiliar with both the New Testament and JW-isms), but Ray seems to write about the pre-1975 era of his time in the organization with great fondness.

I did not get that impression at all. From chapter 7 "Predictions and Presumption" [page 172] through chapter 9 "1975: 'The Appropriate Time for God to Act'," [page 253], Ray Franz dissects the origins of their multiple false prophecies and the hubris of the Watchtower Society's claims surrounding their biggest prophecy (and failure) of 1975.

The next chapter, [chapter 10] "1914 and 'This Generation'," discusses the fallout from the failed false prophecy of 1975 & subsequent structural changes within the organization.

But the only time I ever perceived Ray Franz as having any positive feelings towards anything associated with the Watchtower Society, was when he spoke of individual members who had served faithfully, and were then cast aside like trash by the very organization they'd served so long & loyally. Undoubtedly he was feeling quite a bit of that betrayal in his own situation.

I did a brief analysis of Raymond Franz' possible motivations in this thread, in case you're interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4bpk39/ray_franz_departure_from_watchtower_society/

I don't think he had much nostalgia for the earlier years of Knorr (who served under Rutherford, who was a terrible bully), or for the period of the initial Governing Body.

>What are some other books that you would recommend? I'm not really familiar with the ex-JW literary landscape.

There are dozens (if not more) books written about the JWs. I personally would recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

Haven't read this one yet, but it looks fascinating:

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Must-Wait-Witnesses/dp/1936411237

http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

That should get you started...

>4) What happened between Ray and the rest of his family? There is almost no mention of Fred Franz after the inquisition started - did they ever communicate with each other after it began or did Fred never speak to him again after they started becoming suspicious of Ray?

As I recall, "Fractured Freddie" (my nickname for that idiot) Franz never spoke to his nephew after the witch-hunt began at Bethel. Nor did ol' "Fractured Freddie" (who allegedly talked to his shoes, later in life) apparently lift a finger to help his beleaguered nephew at any point during that witch-hunt.

>The Prophet has a $1 million dollar penthouse.

My previous post on the subject, including scripture, and details. let me know if it is not sufficient

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/p74k3/general_authority_ga_salary_stipends_living_wages/

>One is able to fly anywhere in the world for free, and be treated like a king by the members when one arrives. Not bad.

Source: Book of Mammon http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mammon-Corporation-Mormons/dp/1451553706

>GA's make $150k and up according to Canada tax returns.

it's in my previous link as well. A little searching on /r/exmo should turn up the full post with tax documents.

>1/2 of tithing in New Zealand goes to pay Salaries in the church. 49%. 19% is used for building maintenance and charity.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2012/07/new-zealand-mormon-church-finances-a-case-study/

>0% of the humanitarian aide dollars in the UK donated for tsunami victims actually made it to tsunami victims. Maybe the U.S. used all their tsunami dollars + a bit extra, but there are no public records in the U.S.

http://mormonthink.com/tithing.htm under "Tsunami"

>Their children and grand children all get free educations at BYU.

I knew some personally who were there on a free ride. Employees of BYU also get free tuition. And my relatives qualify for that. Not really a question, but if you need me to, I'll find more.

And let's tack the 1.5 billion dollar mall on to this list. Build a mall, no tithing used; but the only money you have is tithing. Hmm... wonder how that works?

Take the tithing, put it in a bank; get interest off it (For three years), use the interest to invest in private for-profit activities. Everyone profits!

Just gonna throw this out there - most of me and my wife's shelf breakers came from books or film that wouldn't traditionally be seen as related to mormonism. Our brains were just too wired to sniff that stuff out and reject it even if engaging with it. Instead I'd recommend two of the most powerful books I ever read and obiliterated my testimony without so much as a mention of Mormon history:

The Greatest Show On Earth by Richard Dawkins - Dawkins has a bit of a reputation as a vocal Atheist so your wife may already be biased. But if not - he is a wonderful writer, capable of relaying complex scientific principles in easy-to-understand layman's terms. So clear and levelheaded, it's essentially impossible to read this book and not have a minor stroke from the cognitive dissonance it throws on every concept of a divine creator that's ever existed.

Varieties of Scientific Experience by Carl Sagan - Carl Sagan was the original 'make science cool and accessible' superstar and in my mind he still hasn't been topped. This book is a supremely entertaining, mind expanding and FAIR mediation on science and belief from one of our generations greatest thinkers.

Hope this helps (cause reading mormon history books if she isn't ready sure as hell won't)

I highly recommend anything Carl Sagan has written. The book Contact is a good start since it's fiction. It's basically Sagan's love note to science. I also enjoy many of his non-fictions since he has a way of explaining things so that even an ignoramus like myself can understand.

My favorite is The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, but the first one I read was The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal view of the Search for God. I really attribute this book with making me want to learn more about science. It's the first non-fiction book I ever enjoyed.

Oh yeah, and watch any interview you can find with Richard Feynman. He has such a great way of looking at everything!

Though Carl Sagan was an atheist he probably would have used "god" (in quotations) as a reasonable analogy or metaphor for what he sought and why, at least the title of this wonderful book would lead me to believe so. It is a collection of essays and lectures that discuss the concept of science as a kind of informed-worship of reality, rather than traditional religious practices being rituals dedicated to superstition. I'd highly recommend it.

Not only in this book but in all of his teaching, he took care to illuminate the human need to seek and embrace truth, and to find awe and delight that which is grander than oneself. He sought to show that there is no need to put artificial limits on the questions we ask or to place artificial answers to that which we do not yet know, or maybe even can't know. He uses what in many ways was traditionally the language of religion to embrace what is truthful in what we can observe, reason and imagine rather than what is fearful or unreasoned or limited in imagination.

Some recommendations, as promised.

• I highly recommend Christ, Baptism and the Lord's Supper: Recovering the Sacraments for Evangelical Worship by Leonard J. Vander Zee. It's more pastoral than heavy duty theological, but definitely worth reading.
  
  
• Read the treatments of the Lord's Supper in Reformed Systematic Theologies. Calvin's Institutes is a must, I think, but also Bavinck. The part on communion is in volume 4, I believe. If you don't have access in Bavinck (a situation you should resolve) then Berkhoff would do.
  
  
• Given for You: Reclaiming Calvin's Doctrine of the Lord's Supper by Keith A. Mathison is supposed to be very good.
  
  
• If you want a non-Zwinglian perspective from a Baptist, check out Richard C. Barcellos' The Lord's Supper as a Means of Grace: More Than a Memory
  
  
• If you are up for technical theology, I'd recommend The Lord's Supper in the Reformed Tradition by John Riggs.
  
  
• RC Sproul's What is The Lord's Supper? in his Critical Questions theory is currently free on Kindle. It won't answer all of your questions, but the price is right.

Home teaching started in 1963 when TSCC underwent correlation. Harold Lee gave a talk in the priesthood session of conference explaining correlation, and in that talk he announced the start of the home teaching program (starts on page 86, second column, Chart #6. It was basically a way to make sure everybody got the word out about this new-fangled correlation and to enforce priesthood hierarchy/keep tabs on all the priesthood holders.

If you don't know much about correlation (the period in the 60s when the church became completely centralized, started white-washing its history, and got rid of inconsistent/contradictory doctrines/teachings) I would recommend the work of Daymon Smith. He has an entertaining blog as well as some great books (one about his experience working in the COB), and did his PhD in anthropology studying the history of Mormon correlation. His dissertation is long but completely fascinating. For a shorter account of correlation, see the interview he did with BCC. Also, here's a hilarious video the church put out in the 60s about the "importance" of home teaching (cue the loser, inactive dad, and the clean-cut home teacher who is a better father-figure to the confused, but faithful, young man).

I think visiting teaching started in Nauvoo when the Relief Society was organized as a way for the sisters to go around to collect donations to then distribute to those in need.

> You accused the LDS church of changing its definition of tithing in order to gain financial benefit. I have asked for proof but it has to be a specific kind of proof. You still haven't met my concern and I don't think you ever will because you have no proof to back up your claims. To clarify: I want a primary source...

Do you trust your own eyes? Drive past the property just south of temple square in Salt Lake City. It doesn't take a genius to see that a lot of money went into that project. Some place the amount as high as 10% of their total assets (3.5/35). If the LDS church is not forthcoming with the actual amount that they spent, then estimates by construction accountants will have to suffice. The square footage will be on full display. Do you think that steel, concrete and skilled labor comes cheap? Whatever the exact answer ends up being, be assured that it is multi-billions. Hopefully, it will end being something people want, and not a white elephant like all of the derelict new structures that dot the landscape in Las Vegas.

By the way, the allegations in this book appear to me to be well researched and reliable. If that is not enough, then trust your own eyes, instead. The city creek mall project is the elephant in the room. Just because current tax law allows them to do it, the question remains: Did Jesus really want a mall as his first priority?

edit: trim link

No Man is an Island By Thomas Merton

Clowning in Rome By Henri Nouwen.

The Great Divorce By C.S. Lewis

Beginning to Pray By Archbishop Anthony Bloom

For the Life of the World By Fr Alexander Schmemann

Christ the Conqueror of Hell By Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev

Christ the Eternal Tao By Hieromonk Damascene

The Way of the Pilgrim

Marriage as a Path to Holiness-Lives of Married Saints By David and Mary Ford

On the Incarnation By St Athanasius

On Social Justice By St Basil the Great

The Ladder of Divine Ascent By St John Climacus

I'm currently trying to finish Fr Seraphim Rose- His Life and Works for the third time and despite my apparent inability to complete it, I really do enjoy it.

First of all, can I just say how much I love giving and receiving book recommendations? I was a religious studies major in college (and was even a T.A. in the World Religions class) so, this is right up my alley. So, I'm just going to take a seat in front of my book cases...

General:

1. A History of God by Karen Armstrong
   
   
2. The Great Transformation by Karen Armstrong
   
   
3. Myths: gods, heroes, and saviors by Leonard Biallas (highly recommended)
   
   
4. Natural History of Religion by David Hume
   
   
5. Beyond Tolerance by Gustav Niebuhr
   
   
6. Acts of Faith by Eboo Patel (very highly recommended, completely shaped my view on pluralism and interfaith dialogue)
   
   
7. The Evolution of God by Robert Wright
   
   Christianity:
   
   
8. Tales of the End by David L. Barr
   
   
9. The Historical Jesus by John Dominic Crossan
   
   
10. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan
    
    
11. The Birth of Christianity by John Dominic Crossan
    
    
12. Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack
    
    
13. Jesus in America by Richard Wightman Fox
    
    
14. The Five Gospels by Robert Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar (highly recommended)
    
    
15. Remedial Christianity by Paul Alan Laughlin
    
    Judaism:
    
    
16. The Jewish Mystical Tradition by Ben Zion Bokser
    
    
17. Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliot Friedman
    
    Islam:
    
    
18. Muhammad by Karen Armstrong
    
    
19. No God but God by Reza Aslan
    
    
20. Approaching the Qur'an: The Early Revelations by Michael Sells
    
    Buddhism:
    
    
21. Buddha by Karen Armstrong
    
    
22. Entering the Stream ed. Samuel Bercholz & Sherab Chodzin Kohn
    
    
23. The Life of Milarepa translated by Lobsang P. Lhalungpa
    
    
24. Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism by John Powers
    
    
25. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones compiled by Paul Reps (a classic in Western approached to Buddhism)
    
    
26. Buddhist Thought by Paul Williams (if you're at all interested in Buddhist doctrine and philosophy, you would be doing yourself a disservice by not reading this book)
    
    Taoism:
    
    
27. The Essential Chuang Tzu trans. by Sam Hamill & J.P. Seaton
    
    Atheism:
    
    
28. Atheism by Julian Baggini
    
    
29. The Future of an Illusion by Sigmund Freud
    
    
30. Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht
    
    
31. When Atheism Becomes Religion by Chris Hedges
    
    
32. Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith

Jaded Comments
----

>> next unto it is to say something disparaging about Sherry Dew (i wont go into that one, apart from saying that I may have called her a haggish old woman),

I find it funny, that the role model for women in the church is a never married CEO.

>> As time went on, because my employment was directly tied to my beliefs I spent many painful nights trying to get myself to believe

This is my theory on apologists.

>>I have never felt more at peace, happy and self confident as I do now that I have left the church behind me.

Congratulations! I'm happy for you.

----

Questions
----

1. Have you read this?
   
   
2. Do you have moderately relevant numbers on activity, tithing, expenditures, any of their internal studies, corporate expenses / losses, or other information long kept hidden from the public?
   
   
3. What were your "Wow, you're kidding me. This happens in the Lord's church!" moments.
   
   
4. How many of your coworkers do you think have completely drunk the kool-aid vs just want to keep their job?
   
   
5. How are women regarded by the COB?
   
   
6. How many missionaries did you see take the jobs of FTEs, or FTEs reduced to contractor status to keep their jobs?
   
   
7. Were there any pleasant moments working for the COB?

This series gets into the Divine Liturgy around part four. This is actually a book study on a very highly regarded book, "For the Life of the World" by Fr. Alexander Schmemann that you might enjoy. The podcast is by Deacon Michael Hyatt, who's the Chairman of Thomas Nelson Publishing. Pretty down to earth and easy to listen to. Not sure on the Theosis front, hopefully someone else will chime in.

Coming from a Charismatic Baptist background I've found I have a very shallow understanding of the importance of Sunday worship and the things that it entails. The Lord's Service by Jeffrey Meyers is a scholarly look into the subject. He is biased towards high church practices, probably more than I am but he makes excellent points and I feel that I worship with better purpose now.

I can assure you, as an ex Catholic, the Orthodox church is not just conservative. Our practices and liturgy have evolved and will keep doing it. But holding to the traditions doesn't limit us, it enriches us. My priest once stood up and gave a homily that I will paraphrase badly. He said the Church exists for the people and their salvation. The rules and traditions exist because these are the things that have been found over the centuries to work. Again. They help us achieve salvation. Then he said that yes, it's possible to strike out on your own or go find God on the mountain top, but most of us need a lot more help than that. So if the rules are getting in the way of your relationship with God, don't follow them. But if you're ignoring the rules because you think you can do it better, try taking them on. Because the evidence shows that they work.

You're not going to be able to understand Orthodoxy by reading, you'll have to come and visit and absorb it. But you should check out the book For the Life of the World. From what you've written here I think you would appreciate it.

I read Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity a couple months ago. Spinoza is popularly thought of as a pantheist, yet his philosophy was instrumental to Freethinking.

An especially enjoyable book, I say, is The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God by Carl Sagan. Or you might enjoy his novel Contact, which is essentially a novelization of Varieties.

> I was surprised to learn that the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God, you who take away the sin of the world, have mercy upon us) we sing during communion is something that the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Lutheran churches all share in common.

You might enjoy The Study of Liturgy by Cheslyn Jones. As a non-liturgical Christian, I assumed the spectrum of different things called "worship" was just the way things had always been. I was surprised to find out that until about 150 years ago, virtually all Christians used essentially the same liturgy. In western Europe, Ethiopia, India, Syria, the Balkans, the 'Stans... The cultural overlay of Latin or Byzantine elements doesn't change the fact that on a given Sunday morning until recent times, pretty much every Christian in the world was singing or praying very much the same words. Take away the litanies and readings and local accretions, and the hymns and prayers at the heart of the Liturgy (the doxology, the Sanctus, Lamb of God, Our Father, Let us lift up, This is My body, peace be to you, etc) are the same ones described as early as the second century.

Legend says that St James the kinsman of Jesus wrote the Liturgy of St James. Probably not - but somebody in the Church's first generation, before the Faith spread so far and wide as to render communication difficult, chose those central prayers and hymns and taught them to the missionaries who planted local Churches all over the world.

Yes, I definitely recommend Alexander Schmemann’s For the Life of the World, which presents an Orthodox approach to the Eucharist. It’s my understanding that the historic Christian tradition — while debating what exactly are the Sacraments and how exactly to correctly celebrate the Eucharist — the entirety of life is sacramental and eucharistic.

All right, I guess I'll go first.

• I use the Daily Office along with the D.O. Lectionary in the Book of Common Prayer 1979. I always do it alone. I live alone, and I don't attend Office services led by other people.
  
  
• I try to keep my head in each season:
  
  
• • I let Sunday Eucharist services (with the Lectionary readings, sermons, and music) help keep me on the right track in that respect.
    
    
• • I also follow a lot of Episcopal clergy and lay folks on Facebook and Twitter, and what they post tends to be enriching.
    
    
• • I make an effort to keep my music seasonal, too. The Benedictines of Mary have albums out for Advent, Lent, Easter, and several other holy days; one of those CDs is always in my car.
    
    
• I think of my practices as being both peculiarly Anglican as well as part of the holy catholic Church. The Daily Office owes a lot to Cranmer's adaptation of the Office already in use in early sixteenth-century England. It's like Offices in other Christian traditions, but it's also unique. But I try to avoid trying to focus on Anglican-ness above all else. I think that I'm often tempted to be an enthusiast of the Episcopal Church to excess, so I'm always striving inwardly to think of myself as a Christian primarily and not as an Episcopalian.
  
  
• Saint Augustine's Prayer Book.
  
  
• For "Etc.!" - I also love Marion Hatchett's Commentary on the American Prayer Book.

James Penton has written a couple of excellent books:

https://www.amazon.ca/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Third-Reich-Persecution/dp/0802089275

https://www.amazon.ca/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

And for Orwellian fans, Gary and Heather Botting's book is a classic:

https://www.amazon.ca/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457

Botting also has some great research published about the WTs legal history. Check his website for more.

Edit to add: all of the above books should be available for borrow through the public library system

Mormon Disclosures is honestly pretty reliable. It should be noted that it's normal for apostles to be provided with living space, expenses, and cars, so while I'm not sure whether transfer of property is itself normal I wouldn't be surprised. Obviously other churches provide similarly for their leadership, so I don't see any reason to be skeptical. The church's finances are murky and pretty damn hidden though. I'd recommend checking out this book if you're interested in these things: http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mammon-Corporation-Mormons/dp/1451553706

I assume you're exmormon since I've seen you post on /r/exmormon, so am I. If you can't afford that book, but are interested I can PM you a link.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087

A work that details the nature of the eucharist/the sacraments in a broader Orthodox context.

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Divine-Liturgy-Nikolai-Gogol/dp/0884653439

A work penned by the finest Russian author in modern history--an amazing, poetic, simple introduction to the subtext and symbolism of the Divine Liturgy.

And, as mentioned, Nicholas Kabasilas' work on the Liturgy.

You might also try reading some of the non-Bible books that are important to Christianity. These are some of the books we read in my university class on Christianity:

• The Interior Castle
  
• Waiting for God
  
• For the Life of the World
  
• Meister Eckhart
  
• The Life of St. Antony (Note this is actually kind of an action packed demon ass kicking adventure novel - its also one of the earliest accounts of the life of a Christian saint having been written around 300 C.E.)
  
• Why Christianity Must Change or Die
  
• The Blackwell Companion to Christian Sprituality (Note this one is very academic, probably more than most people would want)
  
  Another book I have that is interesting is the graphic novel version of the Book of Revelation its actually really well done in my opinion.

Did you know Amazon will donate a portion of every purchase if you shop by going to smile.amazon.com instead? Over $50,000,000 has been raised for charity - all you need to do is change the URL!

Here are your smile-ified links:

Christ, Baptism and the Lord's Supper: Recovering the Sacraments for Evangelical Worship

Given for You: Reclaiming Calvin's Doctrine of the Lord's Supper

The Lord's Supper as a Means of Grace: More Than a Memory

The Lord's Supper in the Reformed Tradition

What is The Lord's Supper?

---

^^i'm ^^a ^^friendly bot

I think The Lord's Service is pretty much the go-to book on this sort of liturgy. I haven't read it though.

> doctrinal justification

Well, it's just a prayer so hopefully that doesn't require too much justification :-)

> I object similarly to the songs being all split up throughout the gathering

What purpose do the songs serve in your liturgy?

Carl Sagan called this particular move "our retreat from Copernicus" in his excellent Gifford lectures on Natural theology.

See also Terror Management Theory, which posits religion is a sort of death-denying cultural system that protects us from our fears and allows us to have self-esteem.

Here's a good excerpt from Chris Hedges.

http://www.amazon.com/When-Atheism-Becomes-Religion-Fundamentalists/dp/product-description/1416570780

Strongly recommend reading the whole thing.

You should read A Primer on Worship and Reformation: Recovering the High Church Puritan.

The basic premise is about reforming the way in which we worship. American Evangelical worship has swept the country and changed the way in which we worship, promoting Emotionalism and turning what is supposed to be reverent and holy into something that is conforming and worldly. It's time to reform our liturgy by turning to a high view of worship and the church. We who are willing to do such are Puritans in the original sense, that is, somebody who, instead of separating, striving to change the church from within. The church has split too many times, and instead of dividing it further, we need to reunite by turning to Biblical principles and prayer. I don't exactly agree with everything he says, but I stand behind his premise as a "high church Puritan".

Thank you for the referral. I will be sure to read it. One thing I found interesting with the one very critical review of that book on Amazon. It referenced Deconstructing Mormonism Has anyone read this one?

Ed Clowney, The Church

Cornelius Van Dam, The Elder

Newsom and Habig, The Enduring Community

James Bannerman, The Church of Christ

Michael Horton, People and Place: A Covenant Ecclesiology is decent, but I diverge from him on a number of points.

Ligonier has a list of books, as well, but I haven't read some of these, so I won't be helpful on the ones not mentioned here.

Also pick up any systematic theology like Berhof, Bavinck, Calvin, etc. They've got sections on Ecclesiology (Book 4 for Calvin).

I don't have time to watch the video, but if the book he is talking about is Deconstructing Mormonism, it's the one he previously talked about being the one that broke his faith last year.

It's a good book, but it's not light reading. You can see his review there on the Amazon page (his name is Kerry Shirts).

THIS!! Sagan had one of the most humbling approaches to religion and science and was a most eloquent writer/speaker. You seriously cannot go wrong with this one. One of my favorite books.

The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God - Carl Sagan

http://www.amazon.com/The-Varieties-Scientific-Experience-Personal/dp/0143112627

Here are a few suggestions

https://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0281070989/ref=ox_sc_act_image_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Liturgical-Theology-Alexander-Schmemann/dp/0913836184/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=alexander+schmemann&qid=1570773874&sprefix=akexander+schm&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/1944967540/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=Orthodox+worship&qid=1570774074&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0881410829/ref=ox_sc_act_image_6?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/988785154X/ref=ox_sc_act_image_5?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Hymn-of-Entry-Liturgy-and-Life-in-the-Orthodox-Church-Contemporary-Greek-Theologians-Series-No-1/dp/0881410268/ref=cm_cr_dp_mb_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8

Vespers

https://www.amazon.com/Evening-Worship-Orthodox-English-Russian/dp/088141011X

And here is a lecture on the history of the different divine liturgies.

https://youtu.be/i-39xxdeZ9Q

And here is a lecture on what litugircal theology is from the view of fr. Alexander Schmemann delivered by a theology professor with Notre Dame (both authors are linked above)

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/svsvoices/the_anchor_of_schmemanns_liturgical_theology

I would highly recommend getting a copy of Marion J. Hatchett's Commentary on the American Prayer Book

It basically goes through the BCP 1979 section by section, element by element and explains their origin, history, meaning, etc. It's by no means perfect, but it's the most comprehensive resource I know of in this regard.

Here are three books I absolutely love for dipping your feet into Christian theology:

• For the Life of the World by Alexander Schmemman ($2.99 on kindle)
  
  
• [Acquiring the Mind of Christ] (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0990502996) by Sergius Boyer
  
  
• [The Mountain of Silence] (https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Silence-Search-Orthodox-Spirituality/dp/0385500920) by Kyriacos C. Markides

This book by Fr Vladimir Lossky is a really good place to start. Also, (as /u/CollectsWelfare said) Bishop Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church/Way books are solid starting points. Fr Alexander Schmeman's For the Life of the World is another goldmine.

But, and you'll find that at least one person says this to almost every question on this sub, nothing beats talking to a priest (and in your case, going to the liturgy, which you said you do).

Why do you need a god at all to have mystery? the one big man in charge thing is a human construct. There are still mysteries out there, physics, parallel universes, the true nature of reality and finding out what is REAL. Humans want to KNOW. It is better they seek out what is actually true instead of building falsehoods as truth.

Read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Varieties-Scientific-Experience-Personal-Search/dp/0143112627

The Christian right is a brutal political dominionist force built on an authoritarian brutal god.

https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Centered-Worship-Letting-Gospel-Practice/dp/0801036402

Great read.

Kerry Shirts (aka The Backyard Professor) left apologetics 2 years ago. This was his departure.

It seems that he has also left the church, but I honestly haven't heard much about him in the last couple of years.

I always recommend the following:

https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

It is not a polemic as many of the apostate sites can tend to be and Mr. Penton has solid academic qualifications. He is an apostate so it's not like you can introduce him as some outsider who happens to have written something about the JWs. But his intent is to evaluate the society and its claims with the rigour that is necessary to hold up to interrogation. He cites his sources, he presents a compelling argument and as an overall review of the society and its theology/eschatology it should be enough to shift almost anyone that is honestly evaluating the JWs.

Historian and ex-witness James Penton in his book Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of the Jehovah's witnesses had this to say about Knorr:


"Although possessing little if any ability as a writer, and certainly lacking the personal charisma of his predecessors, in many ways Knorr was a more able man than either."

Penton then describes Knorr's moves to de-emphasize the role of personalities in the WT, essentially by having all watchtower literature published anonymously. Continuing:

"Of course, there may have been another reason why Knorr wanted to develop this cult of de-personalization. Since he was unable to research and write the society's major publications, he knew that he would not be able to gain the prestige that both Russell and Rutherford had obtained as authors. So Nathan Knorr may very well have wanted to hide his own inadequacy by having practically all Watchtower material published anonymously."

aldığı kitabın sinopsise bak "Claiming Society for God focuses on common strategies employed by religiously orthodox (what some would call "fundamentalist") movements around the world. Rather than employing terrorism, as much of post-9/11 thinking suggests, the most prominent and successful religiously orthodox movements use a patient, under-the-radar strategy of infiltrating and subtly transforming civil society. " kitap da şu: https://www.amazon.com/Claiming-Society-God-Religious-Movements/dp/0253002389

bu heriflere ulan belki de gerçekten müslümandırlar diye benefit of the doubt veriyodum da direk adamlar dini kullanmayı sistematik olarak çalışan tüccarlar...

bu da aynı ID'de verilen sasha grey uzvu
https://www.amazon.com/Doc-Johnson-Sasha-Grey-Close-Ended/dp/B0044FQVDM?th=1

If you're serious about wanting an in-depth logical breakdown of the church, you could try Tom Riskas' Deconstructing Mormonism. This is not light reading. Read the reviews.

I'm only 37 pages in, but so far it's definitely my cup of tea.

I'm in the middle of reading this: The Varieties of Scientific Experience and I think it's quite relevant to r/atheism's interests. I highly (pun unintentional) recommend it.

For the Life of the World by Fr. Alexander Schmemann. I was raised Southern Baptist, and then loosely protestant as an adult. This is the book that answered so many questions for me. It's beautifully written, for one, and goes really in depth to Orthodox theology in a way that I could understand.

If you are REALLY interested in learning about correlation, Daymon Smith is the expert.

He earned his PhD in Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania in 2007 and wrote his dissertation on the rise of the modern, correlated church. Here's a link to his dissertation.

If you don't feel like reading through his 533 page magnum opus, he did a 9 part series on correlation back in 2010 at bycommonconsent.com which is based on material from his dissertation.

If you want something even more succinct, he did a Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin in which he discussed his book, "The Book of Mammon: A Book About A Book About The Corporation That Owns The Mormons" and touches upon the rise of the modern church and correlation.

Wait, so Jeezus himself accepts the money from your very hand? Bull. Shit. You give it to The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They invest your money and build a shopping mall with it. That is the truth. Source: The Book of Mammon

Fiscally conservative...

Do you know how much they spent on City Creek? Did you know the cost of City Creek was about twice per square foot what the most expensive resort, per square foot, in Vegas cost to build? That's just one example.

Here is an in-depth read of the church fiscal responsibility. From what I understand, the author is still a faithful member somehow.

Excluding the breast enchancers and all that, this book is my favourite.

>Claiming Society for God focuses on common strategies employed by religiously orthodox (what some would call "fundamentalist") movements around the world. Rather than employing terrorism, as much of post-9/11 thinking suggests, the most prominent and successful religiously orthodox movements use a patient, under-the-radar strategy of infiltrating and subtly transforming civil society.

My favorite edition of the DL: here

Some outside references: For the Life of the World and this pdf that details all of the biblical references in the Liturgy.

Deconstructing Mormonism is a good, though somewhat technically dense, read that points out the philosophical absurdity of Mormonism.

I really enjoyed The Varieties of Scientific Experience. It's actually a posthumous release transcribed from a series of lectures he gave. It deals with a lot of the 'God' questions in a really straight forward, non-preach way and feels more cohesive and contains a lot more of the scientific 'wow' type stuff from Cosmos than 'Demon Haunted World' does.

Having read The Book of Mammon that sounds exactly like how the Church Office Building operates.

Christian Theology by Millard Erickson would have a baptistic view of ecclesiology. Charles Hodges systematic theology would be reformed and probably more presbyterian. The book I used in Bible college is the one by Everett Fergeson The Church of Christ. Lot's of scripture. Edmund Clowney's book The Church From the Contours of Christian Theology series would be worth looking at too. Let us know how it goes.

Ask him if he has read the book of mammon:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mammon-Corporation-Mormons/dp/1451553706

he goes into depth considering the quad and how it related to sales being the reason for campaigns pushing certain purchases.

The actual Episcopal service is at: http://bcponline.org. There's some supplemental material that's not there, but that contains an awful lot of what we do.

The most common service is Holy Eucharist Rite II.

For the history and theology, Marion Hatchett's Commentary on The American Prayer Book is an excellent resource.

Read the book review by Kerry Shirts. He is (or was) an apologist. It seems like this book hit him really hard

Carl Sagan talks about it in this book
We (animals/life) have an understanding of physics built into us, the same way a lion knows how to chase down its prey.

• The Liturgy Trap (short)
  
• The Lord's Service (more technical)
  
• O Come, Let Us Worship
  
  I'd also say Theses on Worship but it's out of print. If we ever meet in person I'll give you a copy, I got a bunch when the author was clearing out his house for a move.

For the Life of the World, by Alexander Schmemann

Here is one scholarly place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Shape-Liturgy-New-Dom-Gregory/dp/0567661571

That's supposedly covered in this book, written by an insider who got fed up with all the shenanigans in the penis building.

For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy, by Fr. Alexander Schmemann.

The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God

http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mammon-Corporation-Mormons/dp/1451553706

I you happen to read that book then read this

There are two Carl Sagan books which I believe are more important than all of the others. The first, details how to look at the world skeptically, and the second, how to look at the world with all the wonder that Nature deserves.

• The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
  
• The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God

A couple of books by James Penton to consider:

Apocalypse Delayed -
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733

JWs and the Third Reich -
https://www.amazon.com/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Third-Reich-Persecution/dp/0802089275

And Carl Olaf Jonsson:

Sign of the Last Days-When? -
https://www.amazon.com/Sign-Last-Days-When-Jonsson/dp/0914675095

The Gentile Times Reconsidered -
https://www.amazon.com/Gentile-Times-Reconsidered-Carl-Jonsson/dp/0914675079

Read all of his books.

The Demon Haunted World

Cosmos

Varieties of the Scientific Experience

Pale Blue Dot

The Dragons of Eden

Billions and Billions

His novel:
Contact

No, the problem is the link itself, not how it's displayed. You can remove everything after https://www.amazon.com/Commentary-American-Prayer-Marion-Hatchett/dp/0060635541 and it will still work (and not be caught by spam filters). In fact, all you really need is https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060635541

The ?tag= thing in the link means it's an affiliate link and someone is getting a cut of the purchase as a referral fee. That's generally frowned upon on Reddit.

I think the short story of how he ended up not being a TBM/apologist is that back in 2012 he read the book "Deconstructing Mormonism: An Analysis and Assessment of the Mormon Faith". Here is his Amazon review:

How on Earth Do I Possibly Deal With This?!

>I have been a Mormon Apologist on the Internet now for over 15 years. There is NOTHING I cannot take apart, refute, and show to be fallacious, wrong, incorrect, warped, weird, and wrong headed, .......until now. (See? That's one of the problems of Mormon apologetics, not to mention Christian apologetics, we get puffed up thinking we can refute anything, which just is not even factually true). What is it about this book that has so eviscerated Mormonism, and in turn ALL Western Christians faiths? A few words first. For one thing, this is simply not an easy book to read. It is serious. There is no other way to describe this. Now that being said, I believe Thomas Riskas is right to sincerely admonish readers to just make it through the first chapters as they lay the ground work for the rest of the book. This is important. By laying the ground work, you see the unrelenting and impeccable logic of his thoughts, analysis, and discussions along with the answers. I had to read and re-read quite a few of those first pages in the first few chapters over more than once. It is worth it for no other reason than to actually "get it" with the sheer force of the power of his arguments he develops in later chapters.





FYI, he's regularly posting as "Philo Sofee" at the Mormon Discussions forum:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=1

Here are some of his recent threads:

OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!

>Okay so in the process of researching for my book on the book of Abraham that I am currently going to write, I have been rereading all of the LDS apologetic. This last weekend I read well over 500 pages of dozens of articles by several LDS apologists and several chapters in several of Hugh Nibley books on the Book of Abraham. I read chapter one in his book "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri." And it completely stumped me.

Kerry Muhlestein, LDS Egyptologist, Just WRONG About Papyri

>Kerry Muhlestein, an LDS Egyptologist, who wants so badly to fill the shoes of John Gee and Hugh Nibley continues to misunderstand and misconstrue some basic ideas and logic of the papyri that Joseph Smith had.

This is just SO MESSED UP!!!

>Richard Bushman, one of the better LDS historians, (come on, at least he TRIED to be a little more objective in “Rough Stone Rolling”) wrote a nifty little essay back in 1997, “The Rhetoric of Revelation Ancient and Modern Models,” published by FARMS, that caught my eye during my research into my forth coming book on the Book of Abraham.