Not OP, but spent time on attack subs myself.

1. Rescues are possible well beyond the normal operating depths of a submarine. Check out this Wiki about the Navy's Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle.
   
   
2. The problem isn't whether there is capability, it is whether the North Koreans would allow us anywhere close to the situation to help. Russia/the USSR has lost a surprising amount of submarines over the years that the US may have been able to save. Pride and politics stand in the way. There is international law regarding/mandating the rescue of mariners in distress, too. In contrast, there have been at least a couple occasions where we were able to help with foreign sub rescues.
   
   
3. Can't answer for OP, but I will say most people in the sub force prefer "submariner," but pronounced like submarine-er. English speakers tend to pronounce the word like submariner. This is said to be offensive, as it implies the person is a sub-par mariner, rather than a person in the submarine force. As far as the coolest stuff that happens/happened on submarines, check out Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage. It's a fascinating collection of stories that can be neither confirmed nor denied.

Well, this is called Intelligence as you mention in your text and we may have to break down by categories in order to provide a proper answer. We should talk about HUMINT, ELINT, SIGINT, OSINT, MASINT, etc etc to see which one did better.
On one hand the Soviet Union was extremely effective gathering technical intelligence, got a lot of info from Western organizations that saved them years of experimentation/development -like the atomic bomb-These success being mainly achieved through sympathizers to the Soviet cause, as mentioned by toryhistory. Soviets were also very efficient in eavesdropping. When they tried to deploy their own agents they seems to have struggled unable to cope with western lifestyle as opposed to Soviet propaganda.
US was very efficient using satellites and planes to gather intelligence and gives them a good picture of Soviet capabilities. On the other hand deploying agents agents (part of HUMINT) beyond the Iron Curtain was almost impossible, they typically depended on defectors walking into the US (or British) embassies.
A good reading on US satellite intelligence program is:
Trust but verify by D. Lindgren
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trust-But-Verify-Imagery-Analysis/dp/1557505187
Somehow polemic the so called "Mitrokhin Archives" that gives insight into the KGB methods, worth reading.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sword-Shield-Mitrokhin-Archive-History/dp/0465003109/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368440267&sr=1-3&keywords=mitrokhin+archive
The subject is massive really.

I haven't! I'll look it up. Another two that are quite good are The White Rabbit and Bravest of the Brave, both about an SOE operative who perservered through unbelievable torture and pain to make it back to the UK after the war was over. FFE Yeo-Thomas is actually mentioned in Between Silk and Cyanide, as he was a good friend of the author.

Oh, and anything by William L. Shirer is totally boss. I particularly like This Is Berlin-- these are all his radio broadcasts while a CBS correspondent in Germany. It's amazing to read.

And finally not to overwhelm you but In My Hands is an amazing autobiography by a young woman who risked everything and seduced an SS officer to be able to rescue her Jewish friends.

It's a pretty big jump from "forensic accounting" to "here's what's going on at Area 51" particularly when nearly all of the budget is redacted.

There's also no real way to know how much money going to Groom lake is NSA money (redacted), NRO money (redacted), DIA money (more easily trackable but not necessarily unlaundered through other programs) and CIA money (same problem as DIA).

You have very poor support for any of your ideas - I like them, but you're pulling them out of your ass the same as dreamlandresort.com and abovetopsecret.com. Chances are good that Aurora flew, but stopped flying back in the '90s. Sitings dropped to nothing about '98, right about the time the NRO's new generation of smaller, more agile spy satellites. I've talked about this at length.

If this stuff truly interests you, I recommend pretty much anything by Trevor Paglen, particularly this book.

TL;DR: I study this stuff avidly and have for years and I wouldn't jump to the conclusions you have... but I recognize how fun it is to speculate.

ah I was going to suggest red storm rising but it sounds like you have read it.

Blind Mans Bluff is an excellent non fiction book on American Subs in the cold war. It is basically a series of real stories from the 1950's-1990's. Some great stuff, especially because it all actually happened. All the things you mentioned, close quarters, technical, espionage, conflict are right on the money with this one. There is a really good part about an American fast attack trailing a Russian Boomer through an entire deployment on the east coast, also great accounts of how the americans wire tapped soviet comm's cables in the Barrents sea

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006097771X

I received this as a gift some time ago. While it isn't the end-all, there's some great info. I know that nothing beats real training but, with family, work, current events and hobbies, there isn't a while lot of room in my brain. This makes a great reminder for SERE/first aid info.

BLUF: This is 101-level misdirection. The source code isn't the worrisome part; it's that the client sends memory dumps back, which may (and almost always do) include things like passwords and all sorts of other magical things that get cached in RAM.

Kaspersky continues to operate out of Russia, a nation state known for its inability to extricate its government from its businesses. On the surface this may seem like a low-risk association, but include that SORM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM) is now sniffing just about everything crossing their international borders. Based on this, it's probable that any data shared between the US and RU Kaspersky data repositories will also be picked up by Russian Intelligence Services (RIS) as it crosses those borders.

The fear isn't of the software client itself, it's of the business practices on the back end. Handing over source code - or even a full build environment, as mentioned by /u/satysin - doesn't reveal intent, only some small aspect of capability and opportunity. Without the other 2 pieces, you only have 1 piece of the threat model, not enough to make any kind of safe risk-based decision.

Intent is hard to read, but based on his educational and employment histories, he should not be taken at his word alone. Eugene Kaspersky has maintained numerous openly reported ties to the KGB/FSB/SVR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Kaspersky). And although he may no longer be employed by any of these RIS, I will quote a former KGB officer:

>There is no such thing as a former KGB man

--Vladimir Putin (http://www.newsweek.com/chill-moscow-air-113415)

There is an incredible amount of detail as well in "The First Directorate: My 32 Years in Intelligence and Espionage Against the West" by Oleg Kalugin (https://www.amazon.com/First-Directorate-Intelligence-Espionage-Against/dp/0312114265) which stands as one of the best open sources for understanding how KGB officers think, even after retirement.

Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency - (2001) James Bamford

This was the first book I read about the NSA. Up until this point, I knew next to nothing about them. This book did a great job of showing the NSA's systematic crippling of industry encryption standards by infiltration, blackmail, exploitation, politics, etc. Their infiltration of RSA and attempted infiltration of PGP were some of the best parts of the book, as it showed that the NSA was looking beyond code breaking, and specifically at introducing mathematical weaknesses in standard encryption systems.

I have the Ultimate guide to US Army survival. 1200 page compilation of all the US Army manuals in print. Food,shelter,tactics, and survival strategies in every enviroment, structure blueprints, communication, even hand to hand combat. Awesome book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1602390509/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1602390509&linkCode=as2&tag=survivalgea01-20&linkId=P62ORNRKERPXCSBC

Actually most highly decorated US warship of all time. You can read about her incredible missions in Blind Man's Bluff. It's a really great book that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone.

My stateside job was a SIGINT Analyst at the NSA - I worked on a Navy watch, and if you want what amounts to a TRUE inside story, check out Blind Man's Bluff.

Can't say much more than it was a fascinating look into my career field, and a very many things checked out compared to my daily experience!

Body of Secrets
is pretty good as well.

Non-fiction, but Blind Man's Bluff is great!

Actually, nope! Here's the quote (go to the vimy section):

http://canadianmilitary.page.tl/First-World-War.htm


Can't pull it up cause I'm at work, but it is used in Tim Cook's amazing book (part 2/2 in his series): Shock Troops.

https://www.amazon.ca/Shock-Troops-Canadians-Fighting-1917-1918/dp/0143055933

Here is part one (at the sharp end) for anyone interested:

https://www.amazon.ca/Sharp-End-One-Canadians-1914-1916/dp/0143055925/ref=pd_bxgy_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=NG58JWQANN4YGV6KV4PM

I wonder why you think a bunch of politicians can tell the army how to do things when they've been refining the art of war for >2000 years. You're implying that something must change? Well, why? How does it benefit the military to change tested and tried tactics? The environment you speak of shouldn't change (well, actually it should change and armed forces the world over are learning they've relaxed standards too much to cater to gender quotas). Next, we'll be told special forces units should change their "environment" to cater to women. Not going to happen. Why should the armed forces have to change? We're talking about life and death here and you're talking about discrimination smh.

Luckily, your training will be significantly easier than it once was and you won't have lug any big bodies around, fuck you'll barely have to do push-ups anymore. Also, women won't be taken into combat and have to experience that either. Thank god! I want you to youtube 'Canadian fire fights Afghanistan'. Tell me all the women you see in those videos and ask yourself. Is this the patriarch in action or is this reality of warfare.

Good luck with your courses. I'm sure you'll cut yourself out a fine career, sincerely. If you're looking for a neat book on the CF in Afghanistan, check out Contact Charlie. I lost a friend they mention in that book and they mention the loss of Capt. Goddard (the first Canadian female lost in combat). Serious shit in 2006.

https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Charlie-Canadian-Taliban-Afghanistan/dp/1554702763/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491698700&sr=8-1&keywords=contact+charlie

Such an amazing story. If people find this interesting, definitely read Blind Man's Bluff. This novel is written based off countless interviews of former submariners & others involved with US submarine espionage during the Cold War. USS Halibut is discussed in great length in there.

>Pretty sure anything short of a sentence that includes "smuggling nuclear weapons to ISIS" is not going to be any worse than I think...

Funny you should mention that. Let me introduce you to The Most Dangerous Mobster In The World: Semion Mogilevich He is the boss of the Russian mafia.

The Russian mafia should also not be confused with a mere crime syndicate. It is an organization comprised of state actors, oligarchs, and specific groups of individuals working collectively with the authority of the Russian government — a “mafia state.” At times, it is difficult to tell where the mob ends and the government begins.

According to the FBI Mogilevich's criminal activities including trafficking in nuclear materials, drugs, prostitutes, precious gems, and stolen art.

Mogilevich's second-in-command and business partner was Vyacheslav “Yaponchik” Ivankov. In March 1992 Ivankov became Godfather of the Russian mob in America.

Robert Friedman wrote a book in 2000 about the Russian Mafia called Red Mafiya. In it he wrote,

> Despite Ivankov's flagrant, multinational criminal activ­ities, during his first years in America, the FBI had a hard time even locating him. "At first all we had was a name," says the FBI's James Moody. "We were looking around, looking around, looking around, and had to go out and really beat the bushes. And then we found out that he was in a luxury condo in Trump Towers" in Manhattan.


> But almost as soon as they found him, he disappeared again leaving nothing but vapor trails for the FBI to follow. "Ivankov," explained an FBI agent, "didn't come from a walk-and-talk culture," like Italian gangsters who take walks to discuss family business so they can't be bugged or overheard by the bureau. "As soon as he'd sniff out the feds, he'd go into hiding for days at a time," a trait that made him harder to keep tabs on than Italian mobsters.

> "He was like a ghost to the FBI," says Gregory Stasiuk, the New York State Organized Crime Task Force special investigator. Stasiuk picked up Ivankov's trail at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City, the Trump-owned casino that the real estate magnate boasted was the "eighth wonder of the world."

> The Taj Mahal had become the Russian mob's favorite East Coast destination. As with other high rollers, scores of Russian hoodlums received "comps" for up to $100,000 a visit for free food, rooms, champagne, cartons of cigarettes, entertainment,

Ivankov's personal phone book included a working number for the Trump Organization's Trump Tower Residence, and a Trump Organization office fax machine.

I will keep reposting this about Giuliani.


This is a passage from Robert Friedman's book: Red Mafiya: How the Russian Mob Has Invaded America(published May 2000)


By the dawn of the new millennium Russian mobsters were lavishing millions of dollars in contributions on Democratic and Republican politicians. In New York City, commodities mogul and alleged wiseguy Semyon (Sam) Kislin has been one of mayor Rudy Giuliani’s top campaign supporters. Kislin, various relatives, and his companies, raised or donated a total of $64,950 to Giuliani’s mayoral campaigns in 1993 and 1997. A Ukrainian immigrant well known among the Russian Jewish community in South Brooklyn, Kislin has also made generous donations to Democratic Senator Charles Schumer as well as other state politicians. According to a confidential December 1994 FBI report and underworld sources, Kislin is a member of the Ivankov organization. These sources say that Kislin’s New York commodities firm has been involved in laundering millions of dollars, and co-sponsored a U.S. visa for a man named Anton Malevsky, who is a contract killer and head of one of Russia’s most bloodthirsty Mafiya families. Kislin’s donations to charities and politicians bore fruit in 1996 when he was appointed to be a member of New York City’s Economic Board of Development Corporation. On December 2, 1999, Giuliani reappointed Kislin to the board, stating in a letter that his “service is deeply appreciated.” Kislin has denied any ties to the Russian mob, insisting at a December 1999 press conference that “I have done nothing evil.”

Have you ever read Blind Man's Bluff? I found it to be absolutely fascinating.

Check out operation ivy bells. Then check out the book blind man's bluff. Such a great read, and it will blow your mind some of the things that are done around the world.

This book is a great book that has testimonies from many marines and people from other branches of the military. It talks about dehumanization, the incident at Abu Ghraib, sexism and many more.

I think this is the book I read! I obviously didn't know what mincemeat was when I checked it out or I think my 4th grade self would have felt pretty strange, ha.

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If you have the chance, or the time, read the book Blank Spots on the Map: The Dark Geography of the Pentagon's Secret World. Its written in 2009 but is still very very relevant today, and goes into great detail about a lot of these locations around the world where the CIA would conduct covert activity.

As you said, there was always more than Gitmo. Gitmo was just the literal tip of the iceberg (the part of that dark world that the public could see) but there was so much more than no one knew about, which this book really opens up.

Somewhat off topic but there is a good book about this called Blank Spots on the Map http://www.amazon.com/Blank-Spots-Map-Geography-Pentagons/dp/0451229169

Read the FT links then.

A few points that are well known:

• Trump has never said one negative thing about Putin
  
• Trump used to say he had a relationship with Putin: In 2013: "I do have a relationship, and I can tell you that he's very interested in what we're doing here today. He's probably very interested in what you and I am saying today, and I'm sure he's going to be seeing it in some form." In March 2014, he said: "You know, I was in Moscow a couple of months ago. I own the Miss Universe Pageant and they treated me so great. Putin even sent me a present, a beautiful present."
  
• Paul Manafort worked for Putin's puppet in Ukraine then moved to Trump Tower
  
• Michael Flynn worked for Putin's television station
  
• Donald Trump Jr said that a lot of Russian money had gone into Trump operations
  
  A few that are lesser known:
  
  
• In the early 90s, when Russian mobster Vyacheslav Ivankov came into the country to "manage and control Russian Organized Crime activities in this country", the FBI lost track of him. They finally found him living in Trump Tower. He disappeared before they could grab him, reappearing at Trump's Taj Mahal casino, per the book Red Mafiya.
  
  
• Trump partnered with Bayrock Group, which was based in Trump Tower, and run by a former Soviet official named Tevfik Arif and a man named Felix Sater, who is son of a Russian mob boss.
  
  
• Russian mobster Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov ran gambling rings out of Trump Tower leading to arrests in 2013
  

Point, but am I correct in assuming that you'd still have to send a diver, or at least an ROV down to physically tap the lines? They'd notice a ship just sitting there. I suppose you could task a nuclear sub to do it. It was done during the Cold War, but it's hardly cost effective.

The story of Halibut is included in the excellent Blind Man's Bluff.

The US figured out how to tap into analog undersea phone cables using induction to avoid physically cutting into the cables back in the early 1970's. As others have pointed out, this article covers some of the details. The book Blind Mans Bluff covers more details on how we did it and how it continued at least into the Reagan era. If the CIA/NSA/etc. has been tapping undersea cables for 40+ years now then they're probably pretty darned good at it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/006097771X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1415992265&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SY200_QL40

Cheers!

https://www.amazon.ca/Sharp-End-Canadian-Soldiers-Story/dp/1553657535

I enjoyed reading this book, he speaks on his time in Bosnia and Rwanda.

Guys, your love with this story only proves that either you are too ignorant or you think others are that way. There is a renowned book containing all the gory details on this topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Secrets-Ultra-Secret-National-Security/dp/0385499078

If anyone is interested, here is a good book about it:
Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1891620088/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I liked Operation Mincemeat. If can think of anything else -- especially anything related to what you mentioned -- I'll let you know.

Then you may like this book.

Well, the reason it's epic is because it IS based on true events.

1. Canadians did fight in Vietnam (many Canadians who lived in the US at the time were drafted into the US military and ended up fighting in Vietnam).
   https://www.amazon.com/There-Canadian-Vietnam-War-Brown/dp/0771016948
   
   
2. The North Vietnamese had planes. Those planes were kinda old (for the most part).
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-17
   
   
3. There were Russian and Chinese advisers stationed in North Vietnam. Advisers are kind of like volunteers. Also, back then, Egypt was backed by the Soviets.
   https://www.rt.com/news/ussr-secret-vietnam-soldiers-speak-out/
   http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Russia_relations
   
   
4. The French were involved in Vietnam. Belgium is kind of like France.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dien_Bien_Phu
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium
   
   
5. North Vietnam was bombed in bombing raids.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker
   
   
6. Zeppelins were used in bombing raids.
   https://www.wired.com/2014/10/world-war-i-zeppelins/
   
   
7. Ho Chi Minh eventually died.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh
   
   
8. There is a form of Vietnamese Kung-fu.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vovinam
   
   It's all true!

Fair point. But before it was troops + mercenaries. Now it's less troops + mercenaries, which is cheaper (which is the point of the thread).

You also reminded me of this book, which points out that as large as the Pentagon budget is, there's apparently a "shadow" budget as large or larger funding covert operations.

No, the rooms are in the buildings at either end where the cable lands. Those are the ... official? ones. But they can tap it even without your cooperation if they want to, as this book revealed around 16 years ago. They just prefer not to. Maintenance is easier, I guess.

Currently reading a book called "Blind Man's Bluff" , describing the ultra secret undersea spying using subs, very interesting describes what these early submariners had to go through and accidents that happened. Very well written.
http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/1891620088

He spoke at my school during my grad studies and rarely have I been so enthralled and entertained. Not only is his work truly compelling, urgent, important contemporary art, it also intersects politics, power, history and the nature of knowledge in a way that few others' do. I highly recommend his book, Blank Spots on the Map, as an introduction and primer to his work.

I can brag that I had dinner with him, but unfortunately (perhaps fittingly) no pictures exist.

certainly not an end-all be-all, but i just picked up The Ultimate Guide to US Army Survival: skills tactics and techniques. Missing some stuff, but its a compilation of all the army survival manuals, so it's not a bad source. too big to carry in survival gear though. http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Survival-Skills-Tactics-Techniques/dp/1602390509

Blind Man's Bluff

Mexican drug cartels- show me where any authority has gone after their banking, or al-Qaeda's banking. Provide some links please.

Israel is a passport mill too. I've got one, don't you? You don't have to be Jewish, you just have to say that you are - much like a Russian passport. Israel is the Red Mafiya's home away from home.

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Red-Mafiya-Russian-Invaded-America/dp/0316294748

read it online here: http://robert-friedman-red-mafiya.blogspot.ca/

European passports are more expensive than most. Bulgaria's are the cheapest, but that doesn't mean other countries can't undersell Sofia.

You're the crazy one if you've only got one passport in this age of globalism.

After loads of reading on the bus to work every day, here follows my reading list for military aviation:

Modern

• Viper Pilot - memoir of an F-16 Wild Weasel pilot who flew in both Iraq Wars
  
• A Nightmare's Prayer - memoir of a Marine Harrier Pilot flying out of Bagram.
  
• Warthog - Story of the A-10C pilots and their many varied missions in Desert Storm
  
• Hornets over Kuwait - Memoir of a Marine F/A-18 pilot during Desert Storm
  
• Strike Eagle - Story of the brand new F-15C Strike Eagle pilots and their time in Desert Storm
  
  

  Vietnam
  

• The Hunter Killers - look at the very first Wild Weasels, their inception, early development, successes, and failures
  
• Low Level Hell - memoir of an OH-6 Air Cav pilot
  
  

  WWII
  

• Unsung Eagles - various snapshots of the less well-known but arguably more impactful pilots and their missions during WWII (pilot who flew channel rescue in a P-47, morale demonstration pilot, etc.)
  
• Stuka Pilot - memoir of the most prolific aviator of Nazi Germany (and an unapologetic Nazi) who killed hundreds of tanks with his cannon-armed Stuka
  
• The First Team - more academic historical look at the first US Naval Aviators in WWII
  
  
  

  Overall/Other
  

• Skunk Works - memoir of Ben Rich, head of Lockeed's top secret internal firm and his time working on the U-2, SR-71, and F-117 including anecdotes from pilots of all 3 and accounts of these remarkable planes' exploits.
  
• Lords of the Sky - ambitious attempt to chronicle the rise and evolution of the "fighter pilot" from WWI to the modern day
  
• Red Eagles: America's Secret MiGs - the story of the long-top secret group of pilots who evaluated and flew captured Soviet aircraft against US pilots to train them against these unknown foes.
  
• Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage - story of the US submarine fleet starting at the outbreak of the Cold War and their exploits
  
  
  
  

  Bonus non-military aviation
  

  I highly second the recommendations of Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon, and Diamond Age. I would also recommend:
  
  

• Neuromancer - defined the cyberpunk genre
  
• Ghost in the Wires - memoir of prolific hacker Kevin Mitnick
  
• Starship Troopers - nothing like the movie
  
• The Martian - fantastic read
  
• Heir to the Empire - first of the Star Wars Thrawn Trilogy and the book that arguably sparked the growth of the Extended Universe of Star Wars
  
• Devil in the White City - semi-fictional (mostly non-fiction) account of a serial killer who created an entire palace to capture and kill his prey during the Chicago World's Fair
  
• Good Omens - dark comedy story of a demon and an angel trying to stop the end of the world because they like us too much
  
• American Gods - fantastic story about how the old gods still walk among us
  
• Dune - just read it
  

Have you read "Blind Man's Bluff"?

https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006097771X

He's probably in it....

No problem. Some of the books on the nuclear subs, Cold War espionage, etc etc are actually quite cool if you haven't read them. Here's a good one.

You talk to your local google datacenter over HTTPS (let's say). It hits their front door, they decrypt it there, and to service your request they may need to transport data from other google datacenters. Those requests are (currently) unencrypted, although they are traveling over private data lines and not the public internet. Somehow NSA is getting in the middle of that communication and intercepting the unencrypted (although supposedly private) traffic. This would also apply to replication traffic to support disaster recovery in case they lose a data center, Google needs copies of your data in more than once place in their infrastructure. So that's an opportunity for NSA to get your entire set of data going back as far as google has it, potentially.

So the real question here is how is NSA getting in the middle to attack these private links. One way would be they are either getting cooperation from or just outright breaking into the carriers of this private traffic and intercepting it. They'd literally just need access to the fiber traffic in a way to split the beams off to get their own copy - they've been caught doing this before. Also anyone who's read Blind Man's Bluff can see there's other crazier ways to break into trans-oceanic communications links.

Don't forget:

• Operation Mincemeat about how the British deceived the Nazis into thinking that Allied forces were planning to attack southern Europe by way of Greece or Sardinia, rather than Sicily.

Keep in mind sonar is not my specialty, everything I know is effectively 20 years of hearsay. That being said, I do not know of a single time that the surface guys were able to find us without us giving them an unfair advantage. A submarines mission is to hang out, be quiet, and gather information without being detected. It's all about being hidden and unseen. The name is the Silent Service after all. If you want more info you should read Blind Man's Bluff. However, a submarine is one of the weakest and most vulnerable unit's so that when it comes to a shootout a submarine is sort of a single use weapon.

You might want to read Blind Mans Bluff, it contains a bunch of stories about American / Soviet Cold War Submarine Espionage.

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006097771X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330708009&sr=8-1

I had an awesome recently published book on submarine warfare, that had a story very much similar to this in it. (Unfortunately I have given the book away) edit: this is the book http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006097771X/ref=pd_sim_b_5

An American sub had gone down, in the 1950's - 60's and no one knew why, they suspected a bad torpedo, with a reason like that article, but the bosses didn't want to know as it would put them in a bad light.

So this might be based on fact.