Reddit mentions: The best christian leadership books

If you have any interest in books (sorry--that's my jam), Mormon Feminism: Essential Writings is a fantastic collection of essays, sermons, some blog posts, and other writings by Mormon women about feminism. It has the benefit of being easily digested in small chunks that stand alone pretty well, so you can skip sections that don't interest you as much or jump to some areas that really speak to you.

I actually think the book Women at Church: Magnifying LDS Women's Local Impact might be another great option for what you're looking for. It's by a very believing Mormon woman who until a few years before writing the book had worked for the church (I think in PR if I remember right) and it basically has two halves: first, explaining to Mormon men (and many women) who don't see any problems with sexism in the church why faithful members feel that there really is (and they're not crazy); and second, laying out suggestions that could be implemented at the local level that wouldn't be against any church policies but which could alleviate some of the problematic aspects of Mormon culture w/r/t sexism.

A few other book options to consider: Mormon Women Have Their Say Essays from the Claremont Oral History Collection; Mormon Women: Portraits and Conversations (covers everyone from a Utah housewife who started a major charity to a woman who fought the Marcos regime as a communist guerrilla in the Philippines!); Educated: A Memoir (a memoir about growing up in a seriously dysfunctional Mormon family but going on to achieve awesome stuff); literally anything written by Chieko Okazaki (or even listen to some of her talks in General Conference to the worldwide church)--she is beloved by literally every Mormon woman I've ever met, liberal or conservative; and Carol Lynn Pearson has written some great stuff about women and Mormonism, like The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women and Men and (if you're into one-woman plays) Mother Wove the Morning. Many of these have Kindle editions if you don't like hard copies.

Anyway, hope some of that might sound interesting to you. Good luck!

If you haven't studied "anti-Mormon" sources, you can't claim you aren't any of those things, because that's part of it. The constant reminders to only get your information from the church. That is one of the biggest elements of indoctrination, brainwashing, and sheltering.

They're preventing you from doing thorough research and frankly, it's not our job to digest all of for you. The problems with the church are so numerous there is no way anyone is going to be able to lay them all out for you in a comment on a reddit post. Asking us to tell you why we left is not evidence you weren't indoctrinated if you refuse to go do the study yourself.

Most active members have no idea just how much information there is and that no, it is not spun. Here's a little bit of the history on why and how the real history the church is now trying to manage finally came out. There is a couple in Provo who have a Christian ministry basically dedicated to taking down the Mormon church. Around 1990 they published a pamphlet that talked about some serious stuff the vast majority of members didn't know, like Joseph's Smith polygamy. Normally the church wouldn't respond to these things, but they felt the claims were worrisome enough (getting questions from members) they needed to publish a response, so they invited two BYU historians into the archives (you know the ones in the mountain) to study ALL of the historical documents they had and write a refutation debunking the Tanner's claims.

For about two years Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel studied every document and took photos of each one, with the church's blessing. Problem was, not only did what they find back up the Tanner's claims, but the actual history was much worse (things like Polyandry). They did write a rebuttal, but it was rejected by the Q15 and they were told not to publish anything at all, ever. More than twenty years later the essays on lds.org the church finally published to at least be a little bit honest are right out of Vogel and Quinns essays. By being a little bit I mean, if you not only read the essays, but then follow the footnotes, well. It's not good. The Saints book is the same way. It doesn't out and out lie, but talk about out of context and leaving out very important information if it's too faith challenging. It's still not fully honest. Not even remotely. Shouldn't the church have to be as honest as they expect the membership?

Being historians, not publishing and keeping it all a secret didn't sit well with them and they published anyway. In fact, Dan Vogel made all those facsimiles of all those documents, thousands and thousands of them, available to any other scholar wanting to pour through them and publish their own findings. For their trouble they were excommunicated as part of the September Six (google it).

Many (maybe most on church history) of the anti-Mormon books out there directly source these documents and you can even get them yourself. Dan Vogel published all of them in several volumes called, "Early Mormon Documents." The goal was to publish all the source material he and Quinn had collected without editorial comment. I'm not sure how much more objective it can get or how any Mormon can claim the stacks of books that came out of these are not sourced or dishonest.

If you want a summary list of the major issues, and it's a long one, you should download the free pdf version of the CES letter on cesletter.org. Then read the rebuttals over on Fair Mormon. Then read the rebuttals to the rebuttals.

When I left, a nice summary didn't exist, so I had to read books and boy did I read a lot of them. I happened to start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is well sourced out of the RLDS archives, but I also read Grant Palmer's, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Incidentally, he was another BYU professor excommunicated for publishing the irrefutable truth. Keep in mind, these people were active members. They were not trying to tear down the church. They simply felt it was morally wrong to continue to have blatant and significant inaccuracies in teaching manuals, in conference talks, in Seminary, in well......everything.

My reading list (those I can remember at least):

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

Mormon America: The Power and the Promise

If you still think everything other than what is directly published by the church are anti-Mormon lies or tricks, well I can help you there at too. How deep have you gotten into Journal of Discourses? It's almost worse than anything written by an anti-Mormon. So much worse than a couple of troublesome quotes. I also re-read the D&C while reading Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith in tandem. It was a lot harder to swallow that way to say the least and both of those are obviously considered faithful study.

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If you want to claim you aren't brainwashed or indoctrinated you have to do the work. Saying "I posted on Reddit and no one convinced me," or the other favorite, "people much smarter than me have already studied all that and say its fine," are not valid arguments. They're lazy cop outs.

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Good luck on your search for truth. I encourage you to study it out from ALL sources, including faithful sources you haven't yet studied.

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edited to add: Forgot one of the most important. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith

edited edited to add: If you want something a little more biased for the church you can even just read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. If you're going to read the D&C and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the same time as I did, I recommend at least reading this one first. It's going to be much clearer if you've read at least one of the biographies and Rough Stone Rolling was published by Deseret Book.

>Should I show next week?

Absolutely. And the next week and the next and the next. This is why I always recommend to those starting a small group, do something you'd be doing anyway.

So if no-one shows, use it as prayer time, bible reading, devotional, etc.

>And no one shows, how late do I stay?

Whatever time the group is set to start and finish at. Seems odd, I know, why not just bail once it is clear no-one is going to turn up, but a small group is a commitment and people need to know if you say 7-8, you mean 7-8, not 7-7:10.

Think of that time less as a commitment to the group and instead as a commitment to God, you're devoting that time to Him.

Always close out by saying a prayer over an empty chair. Pray for God to bring someone to fill it, someone that you can introduce and invite to the group. Do this with the group once you have one, make them involved and a part of the growth of the group.

Grab a copy of Dave Early's 8 Habits of Effective Small Group Leaders (cheaper ebook version), I got introduced to it recently but it is now required reading for our small group leaders and it'll really help, I promise.

That's a topic big enough for a two-volume treatise, but in the context of my comment, here goes:

Leaders in SLC have little interaction with lowly members like me, but listening to their semi-annual talks, the emphasis is overwhelmingly geared toward believing and acting in certain way that outwardly shows devotion, and never being satisfied with your current standing with God, as opposed to being happy with who you are and being assured that the church is place for everyone.

As for the local leaders, for a long time I told myself that as long as I was wanted within my local congregation, it didn't matter what the leaders in SLC wanted. When I began limiting my attendance and participation, local leaders of my congregation did not seek me out socially at all, nor were they at all reassured when I told them that things in my life were going well. They were too caught up on my various "statuses" which are tracked by the church headquarters: whether I was attending all my meetings regularly, whether I was paying tithing, whether I had a temple recommend.

The nail in the coffin was when my most immediate local leader, known as the "Elder's Quorum President", begged me to agree to teach the Elder's Quorum lessons. I told him that I didn't care for the content of the lessons, to which he replied, in an exasperated tone "well will you at least attend? We're down to only about four people each week!"

In other words, he was apparently far less interested in my unorthodox insights, or in my extensive experience as a teacher, than in having just another warm body in attendance. This was evidenced by his unenthusiastic request that I teach lessons contrasted with his impassioned plea for another ass-in-the-seats, so to speak. That was the moment my last lingering interest in formal involvement with the community evaporated.

I experienced similar conversations with my local bishop and his counselors, but the above example was the most obvious one.

>Basically I was asking: "Since every single Lutheran Church where I live ordain women, and I don't feel like putting myself under the authority of women, can I don't go to a Lutheran church instead, where the Sacraments may or may not be administered to you guys' satisfaction?"

I have no idea where you live, but I have a VERY hard time believing this one. I know people who live here in the US who drive over an hour to get to an LCMS church. Is it a peculiar dedication? Yes, and quite admirable. I would be happy to even find a church for you, but I would need a location from you.

As to the question of interpretation, NO. Individuals do not interpret scripture. We place ourselves at its feet and learn from it, exactly as Peter lays out: scripture isn't meant for each man's interpretation, but rather it is an inspired text that speaks clearly where it needs to.

As to Apostolic Succession, it is "claimed because the laying on of hands is still part of our ordination, and our pastors have claim this back to the reformation, and therefore beyond. This is merely to say we are an apostolic church, as we confess in the creed, "one holy, christian, and apostolic church."

When it comes to the topic of ordination, the synod, through its use of the seminaries, chooses who is fit for ordination. However, Augustana 14 states very plainly that it is the call by which a Pastor is rightly able to live out his role as ordained. To state succinctly, it is a hybrid between ecclesiastical order and congregationalism, although that descriptor isn't the best. To gain a full understanding of this, C.F.W. Walther's Church and Ministry will be enlightening.

Here are the best sources on the history of female ordination in the Brighamite tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement. You'll probably find many references here to journals and other avenues of further research.

• Newell, Linda King. "The Historical Relationship of Mormon Women and Priesthood." Dialogue 18, no. 3 (Fall 1985): 21-32
  
  
• Newell, Linda King. "A Gift Given, A Gift Taken: Washing, Annointing, and Blessing the Sick Among Mormon Women." Sunstone 22, nos. 3-4 (June 1999): 30-43. (A reprint from the Sept-Oct 1981 issue.)
  
  
• Quinn, Michael D. "Response." Sunstone 6, no. 5 (Sept/Oct 1981): 26-27. (Response to 'A Gift Given, A Gift Taken')
  
  
• Quinn, Michael D. The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power. Signature Books, Salt Lake City (1994): 36-37. (I can't currently verify this citation as Mithryn is borrowing my copy...)
  
  
• Stapely, Jonathan A. & Wright, Kristine. "The Forms and the Power: The Development of Mormon Ritual Healing to 1847." Journal of Mormon History 35, no. 3 (July 2009): 42-87.
  
  I'd also recommend the chapters on the creation and activity of the Nauvoo Female Relief Society in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Avery and Newell. The book covers quite well just how powerful the organization was and how Emma used it as an effective tool against her husband's polygamy. They also cover when the organization stopped, leading to the great mystery in Mormon history of who made the actual decision to stop the Nauvoo RS from meeting. There's no known answer, and the person claimed by various people says more about that person's viewpoint than it does about history.

The Other Side of Pastoral Ministry by Daniel A. Brown. It was a major influence on me when I was a charismatic evangelical pastor (as the author is) and it's still as relevant now that I'm an Orthodox deacon.

Bottom line: Statistically the average family stays a member of a given congregation for around seven years. (That includes the lifers and the butterflies who never settle.) We all want to grow the Church: Will you settle for an increasing number of butts in pews or an increasing influence in your community? Is that the meaning of a commission to make disciples?

Or will we concentrate on the individuals whom God has given us, bless them personally, and ensure that their time under our spiritual care is highly profitable to their soul, that they are more conformed to Christ than ever before, and that the person who moves on from our congregation or city is not the person who arrived?

This book doesn't major on ridiculously pat answers or bullet-lists. What it does is unpack the approach a pastor needs to have if his goal is to pastor - i.e. be a shepherd - in the flock God has given him. Anybody can be a preacher, trainer, teacher, administrator, or a face on a big screen. All you need is talent. But a pastor is someone who invests his time, heart and soul in developing Christian character in his congregation, one human being at a time.

The ECC made this shift to honor and embody the scriptures, not to pacify the world. There's no way the ECC is going to reverse that doctrinal position, even to pacify fellow believers who make the statements you just said.

Note: Sarah Sumner makes a collection of excellent rebuttals to this in Men and Women in the Church.

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My own view is that the wording in 1 Timothy 2 suggests rather strongly that Paul was correcting a specific heresy: that Eve was created first, that therefore Adam was eternally subject to a vertical "student-teacher" (or even "prophetess-brute") relationship with Eve, and that Man should relate to Woman accordingly.

This especially makes sense given the locale (Ephesus), the center of Artemis worship. Paul consequently refutes this teaching and establishes that women are to learn (just as men are), not to set up "Woman" as the "Teacher of Man."

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Likewise, since in the Greek there is no indefinite article used, it is arbitrary to translate the passage "I do not permit a woman to teach or authentein a man," and could just as easily be translated, "I do not permit Woman to teach or authentein Man." This actually makes more rhetorical sense since it uses Man and Woman as archetypes in the same way Adam and Eve are treated (as archetypes for all men and women) in the same passage.

Notice my response is to depend on honoring scripture -- in all detail, original language and context -- not to base this on "what the world around us will think" or a warm-fuzzies love concept.

You're not alone! I've deconstructed a lot of the ridiculous fundy beliefs that I was raised with but Jesus is far too compelling to let go of. It's amazing how much bad theology isn't clearly reflected in scripture (which is also plainly fully of errors). You may find some support and refuge in places like:

The Liturgists Podcast and community

Books like Shameless or Jesus Feminist or God and the Gay Christian

Progressive churches (which you might locate more easily using Church Clarity)

Subreddits like /r/openChristian or /r/gayChristians

I'm sorry for all the ways that the church and cultural Christianity has been confusing and hurtful. If you ever want to chat some time feel free to send me a message. <3

Freedom and Boundaries by Kevin DeYoung is a good place to start.

Women in the Church: An Analysis and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 by Andreas Köstenberger and Thomas Schreiner (two PhDs from Southern) is good for an in depth examination of that specific passage.

Jesus, Justice, and Gender Roles by Kathy Keller comes from the perspective of a woman who wrestled through this issue and examined all the relevant Biblical texts closely.

Women's Ministry in the Local Church by Ligon Duncan and Susan Hunt, is good for exploring the positive side of a woman's role in the church, while sticking with the orthodox position on ordination.

Great book I'm reading right now and many in my church.

God Space by Doug Pollock. It's super helpful for post-Christian ares of the country, but it would also work in still Christianized parts of the country, too.

Basically, it goes over how to create a space where people (unbelievers) feel comfortable talking about spiritual things.

If you're interested in some other perspectives, you may like Jesus, Feminist by Sarah Bessey, or A Year of Biblical Womanhood' by the inimitable Rachel Held Evans.

Pretty much every Christian leader I respect is a committed feminist. Not least my wife, who is an exceptionally gifted elder, teacher and pastor.

[This](Communicating for a Change: Seven Keys to Irresistible Communication (North Point Resources) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590525140/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_yWKLxb1SY2VNY) was the best I've read! I highly recommend it if you are looking to deliver a powerful sermon that your audience will remember and apply throughout the week.

If you want an actual Orthodox point of view on this, instead of a Catholic view of the Orthodox view, read The Primacy of Peter. It contains the referenced article by Fr. Nicholas Afanassieff. Further reading might include You are Peter, by Olivier Clement, and Eucharist, Bishop, Church by Metropolitan John Zizoulas.

There's also the excellent His Broken Body by Fr. Laurent A. Cleenewerck, which should basically be required reading for anyone remotely interested in the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

There's also Primacy in the Church (Volume 1), which will be coming out on Jan 31st. It contains the essay often recommended by /u/LeonceDeByzance, The Meaning and Exercise of “Primacies of Honor” in the Early Church by Fr. Brian Daley, SJ, which I haven't had access to until now, and am quite interested to read. The rest of this anthology looks similarly excellent.

That's a great idea. In addition to Quran, I've started reading Leadership Lessons from the Life of Rasoolullah. I'm just 2 chapters in, but it's very educational so far.

It's freely available on both Amazon and the Play Store.

What books would you recommend?

I'll be honest - I haven't always been the biggest fan of President Nelson. His talks seemed very simple, and honestly didn't do much for me.

I was stunned when I heard his talk. When he laid out that he was going to discuss women and the church, I was very hesitant. It's always a dicey area when men, especially men in powerful leadership positions, talk about women and the church. One friend of my said "I just wish my leaders would listen to me express how I feel as a woman in the church instead of trying to 'fix' me."

And then he shocked me:

> My dear sisters, whatever your calling, whatever your circumstances, we need your impressions, your insights, and your inspiration. We need you to speak up and speak out in ward and stake councils.

This might seem like any two sentences for a leader to say regarding women and the church, but I don't think many people comprehended the effect. While not uncommon, there are times when the ideas and input of women have been disregarded (see Neylan McBaine's wonderful "Women at Church") Essentially, what President Nelson did was give women a trump card. If a woman does receive pushback for a legitimate idea, all she has to do is reference this talk, reference that statement, and say "I'm just doing what President Nelson counseled me as a woman to do."

I'm not saying there is systematic mistreatment of women throughout the church. There are inequalities. But no the oppressive totalitarian rule that some portray the church to have. I do, however, think President Nelson's talk was a direct response to what valuable and legitimate voices like Neylan and others have been articulating.

> Since angels (as spirits) are do not marry or have sex, as Jesus said, and God is a spirit, wouldn't God be neither male nor female, or a combination of both?

Well, if he's going to be incarnate, he's got to have some specific physical characteristics. If we knew he were intersex, you know there would be intersex folks lording it over the rest of us.

(To rile up conservatives, try saying the words "Jesus" and "parthogenesis" in the same sentence, because that implies Jesus would pretty much have to be intersex, trans, or something, or that Mary had some interesting chromosomal stuff going on.)

> Why would a sexless God forbid women from leading or teaching in His church?

Many of us believe that is a misunderstanding. Behold works like this.

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The book mentioned in the article is free as an eBook on Amazon. It’s a real solid read, especially for the price of free.

The book "The Crucifiction of Ministry" by Andre Purves I found really good.

It's sort of written toward burned-out ministers (which I'm not). But I nonetheless found it fascinating and made me think more about what my pastor does everyday.

As a man, I won't presume to speak authoritatively on this topic. I will say that when DW and I were TBM, our radical feminism was kept in check by the logic of Valerie Hudson Cassler, who is active LDS and a public feminist. My wife and I no longer buy VHC's arguments, but maybe reading her will give you insight into this mindset. I'd recommend her articles at squaretwo.org (such as this one), her book Women in Eternity, Women in Zion, and talks she's given at FAIR.

You might also consider reading and listening to Neylan McBaine (here, here, and here), Julie Smith (esp. her chapter in this book), Rosalynde Welch (here), Ashmae Hoiland (here), and Joanna Brooks et al. (here).

I know that's a lot, but I find feminism endlessly interesting. I don't think you'll be disappointed if you put in the work to better understand these complex issues.

My favorite books have been where both sides of an issue are able to write out their beliefs, and then critique others. If that kind of book interests you, I highly recommend Two Views on Women in Ministry. There are four authors that first present their side and reasoning for their position, and then the others critique them. They then rotate. I also found Women in Ministry: Four Views. I haven't read this one, but if it's anything like the first book, it ought to be right down your alley.

The Leadership Dynamic: A Biblical Model for Raising Effective Leaders https://www.amazon.com/dp/1581349432/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_CMyJBbM5BNXNZ

Michael Quinn wrote a book about this- "Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power." It's expensive but our library (in SC) had it. Also the recent (fantastic) interview of Christins Jeppsen Clark on Mormon Stories Podcast gets into some details of how excommunications happen, how GAs operate. (Her dad was a close friend of Packer and a GA.)

And then there's this book, about which I hear great things.

Two quick thoughts:

1. Your large space can be a ministry all unto itself. There are many creative ways where that space can be used either for your surrounding community or neighbors or used/rented by them.
   
   
2. Check out Eddie Hammett's book "Reaching People Under 40 While Keeping People Over 60".

This book is a good book to read.

Further reading, if you're interested.

They should be able to be ordained deacons.

Get a library going.

Book

Book

Book

These are just a few. Madigan and Olsek are probably the most intense.

Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of the Latter-day Saints, 1830-1900

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

A very in-depth and fully documented look at the early church can be found in D. Micheal Quinn's Origins and Extensions of Power books.

This one, this one, and then this one. In fact, read those even if you don't go.

I was reading posts in the archives on this sub. I believe it is referenced from The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power by D. Michael Quinn

“Sept 7, 1859 - Salt Lake City clerk records sale of twenty six year old "negro boy" for $800 to William H. Hooper. Until federal law ends slavery in U.S. Territories in 1862, some African-American slaves are paid as tithing, bought, sold and otherwise treated as chattel in Utah.”

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you...And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(1) They shall sound like they say truth

And through covetousness shall they with afeigned words make merchandise of you

(2) Through covetous behavior (such as building a mall, planting tobacco, becoming governor or mayor, heck crowning yourself king, putting loans on memberships heads, changing a non-profit church into a for-profit corporation, paying off personal lones, etc.) they will turn the members into "Merchandise"

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness

(3) People who turn the grace of god into lust which might include 14 year old brides, and two sets of 16 year old sisters married two days apart from each other (link is only to one set)

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

(4) They'll speak evil of politicians and the government. Luckily the church has NEVER spoken ill about federal marshals, or political leaders.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not

(5) Such as decrying homosexuality or DNA evidence without ever studying it.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

(6) Again they prophesy for money such as Balaam did; and if you sit on the board of directors of 14 private companies as soon as one becomes prophet, one might see that as being similar to Balaam. Gainsaying of Core means that they have influence over the membership but fight actual prophesy.

clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

(7) They will be prophets who don't prophesy (when was the last time a GA prophesied a prediction of the future), seers with no seerstones, revelators who don't reveal. Business men in Prophet's clothing.

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

There you have it, a clear explanation that the current Brighamite church is apostate, straight from Peter.

Feel free to wrest the scriptures.