Reddit mentions of What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality

For the Bible Tells Me So - a documentary introducing how the Bible has been completely misunderstood and misused to condemn LGBT people.

What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality

Hate Thy Neighbor: How the Bible is Misused to Condemn Homosexuality

Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality

Many of my friends/family members/acquaintances from my hometown are severely homophobic fore religious reasons. After responding to countless letters saying more or less the same things as your friend, I've started just copying and pasting the same answers, with minor changes depending on the circumstances. Here's the most recent version of my standard reply. Feel free to use any/all of it.

> [Friend's name] you might be interested to know that god does not, in fact, oppose gay marriage (or gay rights, or gay people in general). If you're interested in learning what god actually says (as opposed to what bigoted pastors say), I suggest reading "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by Dr. Daniel Helminiak (www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X). If you don't have time to read an entire book, you could check out a much shorter article by Dr. Mona West, "The Bible and Homosexuality" found at http://mccchurch.org/download/theology/homosexuality/BibleandHomosexuality.pdf or any of the other articles hosted by the Metropolitan Community Church: http://mccchurch.org/resources/mcc-theologies/. These are written by biblical scholars (i.e. people who actually know what they're talking about) and their perspectives are incomparably more valuable than those provided by poorly trained ministers.

> If you prefer a movie to a book, you could try "One Nation under God" or "For the Bible Tells me So" both of which are available streaming on Netflix, or "Prayers for Bobby" which airs occasionally on the Lifetime channel and can probably be found at a local video store. Any one of them should be able to give you a much clearer understanding of god's opinion on LGBT issues.

> Lastly, if you want to skip reading or watching, and prefer to talk to a real person, try the ministers at [local LGBT friendly churches]. I can guarantee that they are better versed in biblical perspectives of LGBT issues than most of the rest of the churches in [my hometown], and I know they would be very happy to talk to you.

1. Don't feel Guilty.
   
   1a) Sodom Story: The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was in-hospitality. Jesus says so himself, Luke 10:8-12. Same applies to the Rape of the Levite's concubine in Judges 19.
   
   1b) The Passages in Leviticus 18 and 20 are about the Hebrew Purity code, they are not talking about sin, but ritual purity to enter the holy of holies where God was with His people. It's about violating the "norm". No Pigs because they have split hooves, and hooved animals aren't supposed to have that. No Shell Fish because they are fish that don't have scales/gills. Things that are atypical are considered abnormal, and thus unideal, thus "abomination". But, That word doesn't mean sinful. Same with gay sex, it's a violation of the ideal of male-ness. Men Penetrate; they don't get penetrated. So those verses don't have anything to say to today's world, as when Jesus died the veil on the Holy of Holies was torn, granting everyone access.
   
   1c) Romans 1: Is an argument about idolatry, not sexuality. He's using sexuality in this case as an example of the deviation from the norm, not as sin. The word unnatural here is actually applied to an action of God in Romans 11, so it doesn't mean sinful. This is Paul appealing to Jewish sensibilities to some extent, applying the logic from the Leviticus passage.
   
   1d) Vice Lists: 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1. The word use 'arsenokoites' isn't used elsewhere. We don't know exactly what it means. But given it's context, we think it is talking about some kind of economic exploitation involving sex, not homosexual sex. So pimping for instance. Probably talking about the men who controlled the temple prostitutes and the men who used them.
   
   1e) Jude 5-7: Says sex with angels is a no-no. The attempted rape in Sodom was of angels, not men.
   
   
2. depending on where you're from, you may have rights against being kicked out.
   
   Hope that was helpful.
   Books:
   
   Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality
   
   
   What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality
   
   Homosexuality and Christian Faith
   
   fyi, I have a Masters in Biblical Studies and Theology from one of the top seminaries in the country/world. And I'm a gay Christian. You can be Faithful and gay. =)

If you really want to take a Biblical approach to homosexuality you can read this and be a little prepared.

That being said you're 16 and still under your parent's house and on their dime. I'd stick out the 2 years and wait till you were out on your own and secure before you tell them. It won't be easier it will mean you won't be subjected to some of the "pray the gay away" bullshit.

You are created by God in his image and loved just the way you are. He created everything about you: your thoughts, your doubts, and your feelings on who you love. :)

This book really helped me when I was younger, and I highly recommend it.

The first moment, I remember was like my third day of greek class when my professor mentioned how the greek word translated homosexuality doesn't necessarily represent the concept writers, such as Paul, would have been conveying. He talked about a couple of the passages.

I read a book some time later by Mark Achtemeier called The Bible's Yes to Same Sex Marriage. He was a conservative theologian who used to travel around speaking against homosexuality. He had a pretty big change of heart, which gives me hope, and now he goes around speaking against what he used to do and advocating for those in same sex relationships and their full inclusion in the church. Another book, titled What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality is another book I recommend. It's pretty similar to the other book.

There is another book, I can't remember the name right now. But, it is a history of the concept of sexuality. It was based of Foucault's book on the subject. In short, they do a more expansive survey of the development of sexuality. Saying that homosexuality, as we understand it, is an 18th century development. So it would be difficult to maintain truly, that biblical writers would have been disapproving of same sex relationships as they exist today.

Lastly, there is a book called Struggling with Scripture. They write a book about wrestling with interpretation of scripture and use homosexuality as an application point. They kind of, in my mind, synthesize the material between the first three books I mentioned to think about how do we understand biblical texts in light of a changing culture. And give a good balance about how to see the scripture as authoritative texts but also how to think of them in our cultural context.

So, that's a small bit of what I have read. I've shown and told these arguments to many who have asked me. I know a number of people, mostly younger, who have had a similar change as I have. I've had many conversations where we are just talking past each other or who think I'm twisting the Bible. Those are always unfortunate.

What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, by Fr. Dan Helminiak Ph.D.

That's one place to start. It's well worth the eleven bucks, but the Amazon page also summarizes a few key points from the book for free.

You sound like you have some serious cognitive dissonance going on right now.

Talking about it with the Internet is a great first step. It shows that you're looking for help and want to make a change. But /r/askgaybros is not going to be enough all by itself. You need to do some serious thinking and evaluate your three options for ending the dissonance: (1) to prioritize God over your own happiness, (2) to prioritize happiness over religious dogma, (3) to change your conception of God and/or your own gay identity so that they are no longer in conflict.

This will not be easy. None of those options will feel "authentic" or "right" at first. (1), in particular, has serious shortcomings and will probably endanger your long-term mental health. (2) is slightly less dangerous but will be very, very hard in the short term.

My advice: pursue (3) for now. Talk to a gay-affirming Christian therapist. Talk to your "this guy" with whom you're falling in love. Talk to your parents. And then listen. Notice how all of these people still love you and think you're valuable and loveable and a good person.

If you want a more Bible-based approach to (3), pick up one of the many, many books out there about homosexuality and the Bible. (I bought this one, about 4 years after when I most needed it.)

And of course, if you fail to find a way to let yourself be happy by pursuing (3), pick a point at which you'll cut your losses and choose (2).

Read "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" and, if you're still inclined, you can happily be an openly gay Christian. I was for many years (before coming to, umm, additional conclusions).

In a nutshell, the translations (other than Leviticus) don't really support the anti-gay sentiments that have been attributed them in the last century. In fact, they are more closely associated with idolatry than sexual sins (i.e., local priests were hiring male prostitutes to assist them in sacrificing seed into bonfires for the Fire God, Molech...that kind of thing).

And if Sodom was all gay, why did Lot offer his daughters to the crowd to rape? Because the crowd wasn't entirely male. The Hebrew word for crowd changes to a masculine declension when a single man is present. Plus Christ supposedly even said, "The sin of Sodom was inhospitality." Inhospitality was the code of the desert, when life was so awful that if you weren't kind to a wandering stranger, you were a terrible person worthy of severe punishment. Turns out "sodomy" is a sincere misnomer and really doesn't even just mean "anal sex" in a legal sense, which should be telling (but noooooooo...).

UPDATE: Even Leviticus has to be reviewed in the context of keeping the tribe of Israelites procreating. Human sexuality was viewed as a mechanism, not as an innate construct. Freud and sexual psychology/physiology were hardly understandable at the time.

TL;DR: you CAN cling to your Christian beliefs and be gay. It's the idiots who cling to what their idiot pastors tell them is the word of God who are in the wrong. FYI: I'm an atheist now and unable to "backslide," as they say.

What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality is a great book, but it may put her on the defensive too quickly to really read it. It can be a good second book if you are doing a continuous swap, however.

When I initially came out, I was religious (Lutheran), and I actually came out with the help of my campus pastor in our Lutheran Student Community. I continued active participation in my religious community, and most of my pastors after that time were aware of my identity, so don't ever feel as if there's no place for you in religious communities. In the US, at least, mainline protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican/Episocopal, Presbyterian, UCC) often tend to be much more accepting than so-called "nondenominational" or Evangelical churches, but there aren't hard and fast guarantees.

(Just as full disclosure, I'm no longer religious, but it has nothing to do with my coming out, and much more to do with other philosophical changes and ideas.)

There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, so I really don't feel the need to repeat it. I do, however, want to share few resources that might be helpful:

• Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality - This book by Andrew Sullivan is probably my favorite work about homosexuality and being gay. If you have a chance to read nothing else, this would be my recommendation. It presents four arguments from four different perspectives for and against homosexuality, then addresses what Sullivan feels are their flaws and where they are misapplied. Sullivan then attempts to synthesize his own philosophy of what it is to be gay. It's something that is a bit of a cliche, but this book really did change my life. (Sullivan is a gay Catholic political conservative — the real, intellectual kind, not the reactionary kind — who is married to a man, and while I don't always agree with him, I adore his writing and value his perspective.)
  
  
• What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality - This is a very good book covering the theological angle, looking at passages in the Bible, and analyzing the various translations and apparent meanings of the handful of passages that ever touch on homosexuality. I read this when I first came out. Eventually, when you come out to your family, this may be a helpful resource for them, as well. (As others have said, until you are financially independent, you should probably not come out to them.)
  
  
• God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships - I've not read this book by Matthew Vines, but I have heard very good things about it. It may be helpful both now and down the line.
  
  In your situation, I understand it may be hard to get these books or read them, but if you can do so privately and safely, I'd highly recommend them as avenues for exploring your identity and giving you a theological and philosophical frame to think about your identity from. I'm not sure if you're worried about disapproval or punishment from divine or human sources when you say, "I'm afraid my own religion will punish me for something that I can't control," but in either case, you may find these helpful.

I know you submitted this post about a month ago, but I might as well give you some advice, since I went through something very similar at the start of my college years.

I suggest acquiring some good reading material and passing these books around your family to help them better understand your perspective and same-sex relationships in general. The book that I appreciated reading the most at the time of my coming out was What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality by Daniel Helminiak. It helped my entire family understand what I was going through, and it cleared up a few misconceptions that they had about the gay "lifestyle."

There are a plethora of other books out there if that one doesn't do the trick. I hope you find peace of mind and spirit. God Bless.

Yeh, that author, Daniel Helmeniak wrote one of the first pro-gay Christian books What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. Apparently he continues to be a vital thinking man/theologian.

Could I recommend two books to you? One is by a devout Catholic (and former long-time political blogger, former editor of The New Republic) Andrew Sullivan. In his book Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality he discusses at length what he calls the prohibitionist view, which is his classification for most of the religious statements and philosophy on human sexuality as regards gay people. As a kid (well young 20-something) from a religious background (Lutheran) who was coming out as gay, it was one of the most influential books I have read in my entire life. It was quite literally life-changing in the way I thought about myself. In spite of it being 20 years old, it really holds up, and it's one of the best serious texts dealing with the matter of how society regards gay people and our relationships.

Another really good book is What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality which is written by a now-former Catholic Priest (he was still a member of the clergy when he initially wrote the book). It talks about the biblical verses (the so-called "clobber passages") that are often cited against gay people and tries to frame them in a social and cultural context (as well as a linguistic one) for the time they were written. This has less bearing on the natural law arguments which the Catholic church makes, but it's not without bearing, either. And it's not as if the Church has never changed elements of its moral philosophy over time. I'm aware that matters of Doctrine ^^EDIT: dogma are not up for debate or change, but the statements on human sexuality, as far as I am aware, do not fall into that category.

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> All that's a round about way of saying, we don't say that to try and hurt people, we do it because we think we are helping people. Now, maybe we are all wrong, but none of our criticism comes from a place of malice.

I will say that for a large number of Catholics, this is almost certainly true, but I think you would be hard pressed to deny that there are a great many religious people and prominent leaders, including Catholics, with a lot of animus for gay people, whose actions do not convey so much as a modicum of "love" or a tiny glimmer of "care". It's not a majority of Catholics, at least not in the US, as a majority of Catholics in the US are supportive of marriage equality and have been for about half a decade, now. But there's definitely a significant plurality that cannot be ignored.

Ohai person whose story closely resembles my own. :D

P.S.

I'm going to suggest two books:this and this one comes from a liberal standpoint and the other is conservative.