Reddit mentions: The best industrial indicators

> It may all be junk

If it works, and you don't have something better, then it's good enough. You don't need name brand anything, particularly when you're starting out. If you find something isn't up to snuff, replace it when you actually need to.

> A bunch of the tooling (mostly the taps) have some rust

If it's just surface rust then don't worry about it too much. If it doesn't rub off by hand, don't go making matters worse by trying to "polish" it with anything aggressive. Just add a light coating of a thin oil to stop it from rusting more. Taps, drills and the like are considered consumables. Properly cared for they can certainly last for years but if you are using them, eventually you'll need to replace them.

> Some end mills are obviously chipped, but otherwise I'm not sure how to tell which are sharp vs. not. Is it as easy as "this cutting edge looks dull"?

Pretty much yeah; although you don't usually need "razor" sharp; and in fact some materials cut better with a slightly dulled edge (brass comes to mind). Don't worry too much about discoloration from heat either unless it's real bad. A light tan on HSS tooling that's been put to use isn't a big deal but if its closer to dark brown / blueish / purply (and you're positive it's not coated or have carbide) then it's probably shot.

> Where do people get raw stock?

Depends on the project. If Its something that needs to look pretty I'll get fresh material from somewhere. If it's just a few pieces I might go online (Metals Depot usually isn't bad on pricing but it depends on what you can get locally). If I need a lot (weight wise) I'll call up some of the local fab shops and see if they have drops or will let me add onto an order of theirs for a discount.

If it's something that looks don't matter (for myself, structural etc) I'll troll the local metal salvage yard. Price per pound they can't be beat and you can get some crazy stuff you wouldn't otherwise be able. The downside is it's a lot of work and very inconsistent. When I make the trip out I tend to grab things I don't actively need but think I might at some point (case in point, I had about 150lbs of 2" plate sitting in my pile for almost 2 years before I found a use for it, but had I needed to buy it "new" it would have been prohibitively expensive).

> What kind of material should I start with.

Whatever is cheap that gets you comfortable with the equipment. Unless you're working on a project that calls for the "good" stuff, the cheapest simple mild steels and aluminum will be your bread and butter. Brass is also very easy to work with but tends to be more expensive (local market dependent of course). You could also look into various machining plastics (Delrin, hdpe, uhmwpe ec) but not having bought any myself I don't know how those run price wise.

Tool steels (O1, A2, S1 yadda yadda) are nice in that you can make your own tooling with it, but unless you ALSO happen to have a heat-treating oven that can reach and hold +/- 1800F you're having to farm out the heat treat to another shop; and sadly it's usually more cost effective (both time and money) to buy what you need; unless you love the "I made it" aspect.

Before you get too heavily invested materials wise you need to research appropriate feeds and speeds for your tooling and material. There is a decent amount of "wiggle" in what you should be running at, almost an art in knowing how to adjust for your exact piece of material and tools but it's a critical bit of knowledge if you expect to get a decent quality finish without a lot of manual sanding and polishing.

> anything else critical that I'm missing

I didn't see an indicol (offbrand is fine so long as it fits your gear) in your pictures but I could have missed it. You'll need an appropriate indicator as well. You'll need those to accurately tram your head in (making sure it's perpindicular to your table) as well as indicating your vises in (parallel to your tables axis). You can work around it, and indicate other ways but you'll (eventually) need the indicators anyways and the indicols themselves are useful in other ways.

I own a Craftex CX-601, which is a very similar machine to the one you've decided on.

On the vice, I would recommend either buying a vice that someone else owns and can confirm is good...or only buy one you can see in person. I bought a 5 inch Taiwanese vice, and I'm pretty disappointed with the quality of it. It was on-sale, and I figured it would "do fine" while I looked for a Kurt or other super nice unit on Craigslist. Turns out it does "do fine", but the moveable jaw was shimmed instead of machined square. Not good. On my table a 5in vice is a good size, but I probably could have gone with a six. Consider upsizing yours to a 5in vice.

It's worth looking to see if you have any tool shops nearby that carry milling machines, even ones of a different brand. Armed with your machine's measurements you can find a "similar" sized bed on a floor model and see what a 4, 5 and 6in vice will look like. That's what I did before ordering both my mill and my vice size.

All the clamping kits are basically the exact same in the box, probably from the same company. Shop around, you can save even more money:
http://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-Slot-CLAMP-CLAMPING/dp/B007DMLBRE?ie=UTF8&keywords=clamping%20kit%201%2F2%20t-slot&qid=1458758346&ref_=sr_1_6&sr=8-6

http://www.harborfreight.com/58-piece-combination-step-block-and-clamp-set-3-8-eighth-inch-16-nc-studs-1-2-half-inch-clamps-5952.html

I own that end-mill set, very happy with it.

You have two edge finders listed, a Mitutoyo edge finder and a Fowler edge and centre finder. You only need the one combo unit, and this Mitutoyo is cheaper: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-050103-Center-Finder-Diameter/dp/B002SG7PPM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458758586&sr=8-1&keywords=edge+and+center+finder

You are missing a holder for your horizontal dial indicator, which I'm presuming you're ordering for squaring up your head to the table, and your vice to the table. The magnetic base you have is great for checking run out of the spindle, and movement of the work, but not ideal for squaring up the head. I started with a clamp like this:
http://www.amazon.com/HHIP-4401-0401-Universal-Indicator-Holder/dp/B01BHHY92E?ie=UTF8&keywords=universal%20indicator%20holder&qid=1458759060&ref_=sr_1_21&sr=8-21
Which I wasn't too happy with. It works, but it's pretty easy to upset the clamp alignment and you have to start over. I have since ordered this unit: https://www.accusizetools.com/egaa-z986-zero-set/ but haven't had a need to re-square my head or vice yet. Doesn't look like it's available on Amazon though.

I notice the mill you're looking at has the option to add the X-axis power feed for $299. If you can stretch the budget, definitely go for it. I figured I would "add one later" and even though I still plan on doing so, man am I cranking away on that handle a whole lot.

It's not cheap, but I find this set of drill bits to be quite handy: http://www.amazon.com/Woodtek-928828-Boring-Machinist-Titanium/dp/B008RE2CSY/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1458759539&sr=8-6&keywords=115pc+drill+bit+set

These are the basics:

Make sure your bed is level. I can't stress this enough. Use the sheet of paper method until you get a "feel" of what a good first layer should look like. It may help to get one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G9K7KCK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and print out a mount for your brand of printer.

Make sure your setting the right temps for your filament. I have an Ender 3 and I run PLA with a bed temp of 50-60c and a hot end temp of 200-210C, depends on the brand of filament. Your mileage may vary.

Calibrate your extruder. It looks like you may be underextruding. There are plenty of online tutorials and videos on how to measure and adjust your extruder. If you have upgraded your extruder to an aluminum one, use the stock spring.

I also may help to enclose yuour printer in a cabinet or closet. Protecting your Ender from drafts can increase print quality. It made a huge difference for me!

Best of luck!

Very cool and informative video. Really neat use of salvaged parts and the guy is intelligent and skilled. However I think he kind of down plays and under estimates the cost of the product and tools he was using and he also mentions the fact that you can buy a lathe (that would almost certainly work better) for a similar price. The big kicker is the other tools. The tools to use and or build this lathe would cost more than the machine itself. I'm going to link you some of the tools you'd want to be able to use this machine effectively (and make it).

This granite block will be the basis for all of your measurements it is extremely flat. You'd probably want to make a stand for it and it is very heavy as well. The 933$ version would be ideal for bigger stuff but maybe you could just make small stuff it's a small lathe anyways so lets say the 235$ version

https://www.amazon.com/HHIP-4401-1812-Granite-Surface-Accuracy/dp/B01LTHIHCK/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=granite%2Bblock&qid=1569402248&s=gateway&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1

Mitutoyo Digital Caliper 120$ The waterproof version is better if you intend to use coolant. I think you could use cheaper no name ones for the ones that he built into the machine but you would need one good one.

https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-196-30-Advanced-Measuring-Resolution/dp/B00IG46NL2/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=mitutoyo+digital+calipers&qid=1569402063&s=gateway&sprefix=mitutoyo+digital&sr=8-3

Range dial indicator (runout gauge). He used one in the video and you'd be using one a lot. 219$

https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-64PKA075-Indicator-Magnetic-Plastic/dp/B007XZIT5I/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?keywords=runout+gauge+mitutoyo&qid=1569402528&s=gateway&sr=8-4

Micrometer set with standards. 354$

https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-103-922-Micrometer-Standards-Graduation/dp/B0006J42OA/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?keywords=mitutoyo+micrometer&qid=1569403065&s=gateway&sr=8-5

That's just getting started. Now you might be able to find some of this stuff used but I'm not sure if I would trust it. You wouldn't believe how careless people treat tools that cost several hundred dollars. If you did go used I'd try to find someone getting rid of their personal tools, not shop tools.

This isn't to discourage you though. I just want people to realize it's not easy or cheap. I'd start out with a lathe for wood and make stuff on it that doesn't need the tight tolerances.

Check out this guy. https://youtu.be/yCaGW9z4blM

You're right that automation, when done right, is generally more reliable and desirable due to precise repeatability. But the issue here is that the current ABL sensors/systems, from an engineering perspective, are not done right.

A properly engineered auto bed leveling system would actually turn the screws and physically level the bed. But the existing ABL sensors don't do that. They take readings and compute in firmware the orientation of the bed, and cause the Z axis to constantly adjust during the length of the print to compensate. This method opens the door to other issues that are unique to an ABL-enabled system:

• The sensors themselves can be thrown off by something as simple as a change in humidity levels, and their accuracy is hindered by a glass bed if your printer uses one or you wanted to try one.
  
• The microsteps required of the Z axis stepper(s) to perform the required very fine movements are not as stable as full steps, which could introduce noise in your Z layers.
  
• Even when they work, with a bed that is actually unlevel your models will be provably skewed. The sensor doesn't magically build up a couple of uneven first layers to build up a truly level base for the model to print on top of for the rest of the model's height. It just runs the same extruding G code as computed by your slicer, with skewed Z values to match the skew of the unlevel build plate. The more off-level your build plate is in reality, the more skew your completely printed model will have on all layers. To mitigate this effect you still need to manually get the bed into a generally level state before starting. There's no getting away from it.
  
  I don't think I have any "superstar talent", as you put it. I just use a feeler gauge to set a known distance from the nozzle to the bed in one corner, and zero out a digital dial gauge that I have mounted to my extruder carriage during leveling. Then I just move the extruder head around each corner of the build plate, adjusting the bed screws until the dial gauge reads within +/- 0.01mm (the tolerance of the gauge itself) of zero on each corner. It is a perfectly repeatable process, and takes no more than 2-3 minutes to get a perfectly level bed. (Edit: This is my method using those tools because I'm a perfectionist, but good results can also be had with the tried-and-true and dirt-cheap "paper between nozzle and bed" method). On a properly rigid system with good compression on the bed leveling springs, I only have to level once a month at most...and that's usually when I've changed something in the system that invalidates my previous leveling anyways.
  
  All this to say...I just believe your initial post was overly hyperbolic. It sounds like you had a bad experience, and if ABL worked to solve that problem for you, great! But to use your singular experience as a reason to emphatically suggest at length that someone new to the hobby should not even consider any printer that comes without ABL, especially when there are countless more people who have entered the hobby just fine without ABL? That's a bit much.

Another vote for bestest indicators

I used mitutoyo, interrapid, and bestest. Bestest is truly the best. Good repeatable action and easy to rotate bezel.

I have a mitutoyo Trutest .0005 .06 range and my only gripe would be the bezel. O-ring sealed makes it easy to replace and cheaper but rotating it is more stiff than the metal bezels of even Chinese brands.

Interrapid's swivel stem is neat but I don't care for it. .06 thou range seems to be something special but I haven't found it particularly special.

-------


Standard purchase along side an indicator would be..

MightyMag
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00095V0NC

And the flex arm I mentioned in an earlier post.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B019LRULQA

You might try this video, it gives one (of about a million) way to get a nice level bed. He's not a fireball, but does a good job!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkZUAyTxU1Q&t=99s

BUT - You still should take the time to do it with a Dial Indicator, as I posted above. :-)

Also a chance to teach your son how they work - here's a cheap one on Amazon if you haven't got one:


https://smile.amazon.com/Navigator-Indicator-Graduation-Strengthen-Hardened/dp/B07797M76L (has a longer arm then some ...)

or a Digital one for a couple $ more:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B075K4SL4P

There's a mount for it in the post.

PP

I had the same issues, someone gave me the advice of stop using the paper/card/whatever and go buy a set of feeler gauges like this one and a very inexpensive dial indicator. Use the 0.10mm feeler gauge to level it, I tend to go a little low on my leveling as in you can tell the nozzle is grabbing but not enough that you can't move the feeler with your fingers. Depending on what indicator you use (search Thingiverse for CR-10 dial indicator for a good list) print out a holder that fits your model. Once you have that level with the feeler again but only do one corner, set your Z to 10 and set the indicator to zero, go to all four corners and level them to the zero corner you set. Always make sure after you are done to go back to the "zero corner" and reset it, moving the other three corners may throw off the original.

This has helped me with so much frustration in the past. I had maybe one good print until I found this, now I have almost no failed.

tl;tr watch this, he does a better explanation

That is pretty cool, I might end up doing this. The dials are nice and cheap on Amazon too.

Amazon vendor All Industrial seems to carry at least some Aerospace tools. Here's a link to their items in the Measure, Test & Inspect category: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_0?srs=7893058011&fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A16310091%2Cn%3A%2116310161%2Cn%3A256409011%2Cn%3A4989299011&bbn=256409011&ie=UTF8&qid=1521519091&rnid=256409011

Hope that helps.

Edit: here is a caliper/micrometer set. Unavailable, for your convenience. If nothing else, you can set up a camelcamelcamel watch for them. https://www.amazon.com/Inspection-Tool-Caliper-Outside-Micrometer/dp/B015NMFYR8/ref=sr_1_18?s=industrial&srs=7893058011&ie=UTF8&qid=1521519189&sr=1-18

Edit 2: allindustrial.com is their website but I don't see any calipers with the V on them.

Final edit, I promise: Check items 51900 and 51902 on the allindustrial website.

Here’s the least expensive one on Amazon.

But if you’re going to throw money at this issue, wouldn’t an automatic bed leveler be the best approach?

i basically did the same thing in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axu_Ix-nPTY

Measurement tools used: 0.001mm Resolution Dial Indicator& Indicator Mount

​

this measurement process should work with semi-floating rotors only. fully floating race rotors would have too much movement to measure properly i think.

I will also make sure to clean the caliper pistons frequently so the pistons retract correctly and prevent over heating rotors. I've actually never cleaned them in the past.

Many people have success with dial indicator. But I can't figure out a way to mount it that works well. Neoteck DTI Digital Dial Indicator 0.01/.0005'' Digital Probe Indicator Dial Test Gauge Range 0-25.4mm/1'' Dial Test Indicators Electronic Indicator Gauge https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JYCVHLK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_.gYFyb3FZ6GB7

I got something like this, mounted it to the print head and leveled the bed that way. It became significantly easier, once it's leveled you just need to dial in the offset, which might be slightly difficult depending on how your bed supports z height changes.

You can get better than .005" via feeler. The easiest 'kit' is just a $12 dial indicator.

With that, you need a 2x4 scrap to attach it to, some runner width scrap for the miter slot, and a 2"x12" scrap to simulate your blade. (The stick method gives you another 2" accuracy on each end to reduce your error.)

It's ugly, but works like a champ. - http://imgur.com/a/sIR04

Once you have your blade aligned, check your fence next. That's often a large cause of pinching problems.

For the absolute cheapest, you can get them for $15 on Amazon, $12 at Walmart.com, $11 on eBay and so on, and there's always Harbor Freight parking lot sales if you have one local to and you get lucky. I've no clue what you'd be risking by scraping the bottom of the barrel, but the reviews on the amazon one are good, at least.

These aren't for measuring, but things you will want for doing set ups. (changing tools/positioning parts)
Edge finder.
6" Scale (Fancy ruler)
Allen wrenches (both metric and SAE)
Crescent wrench
Needle nose pliers
Combination Square with protractor to measure angles

You may want a test indicator with holder if you are going to do CNC mill work. Save your money until you know if your shop furnishes indicators or not.
Like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-JEWELS-INDICATOR-UNIVERSAL/dp/B000MCG2UI/ref=sr_1_14?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1427663936&sr=1-14&keywords=test+indicator

I don't recall any of the Finders I've had at the makerspaces I run not allowing prints because of bed leveling issues. In fact, I often will adjust the bed while prints are running if I am not happy with what the auto-leveling software settled on. Usually, it is because the bed needs to be backed away from the nozzle a little bit.

If you want to get real precise with it, I use a dial indictator on my flashforge creator pro that mounts on the X-Axis rods with a 3D printed holder allowing you to level the bed until the dial indictator shows all points on the bed are level. I'm not sure if there is already a model for the finder that exists for this purpose. It'd be pretty easy to make.

Don't be tempted by the $25 knockoff nogas either - get the real deal. The fit and finish on actual Noga indicator bases is really good, and almost all the knockoffs have slop and wiggle that you shouldn't have to deal with when inspecting.

While it's not commonly recommended, you can buy knockoff indicators if you have the equipment to properly check them. You should get in the habit of checking your inspection tools back to calibrated standards anyways, so in this respect a $30 chinese indicator and a $350 interrapid end up doing the same job. The better ones will likely last longer or have more desirable features (replaceable/removeable dovetails for example) but you can 'get by' with used or cheaper indicators.

Personally I rock this Noga indicator base and then this Brown & Sharpe DTI but you can't really go wrong with any noga in the size range you need. You'll probably want a 1" travel drop indicator, a 0-.030" (.0005 graduation) indicator, and then maybe a 0-.008" (.0001 graduation) indicator depending on what you do.

THIS. DeepSkull is dead on here with the cheap indicators and expensive indicator holders. I've got both expensive and cheap indicators. And I've got both cheap and expensive holders. On a little hobby machine (and especially when starting out in machining) you won't often see a difference in cheap and expensive indicators. You will definitely see a difference in cheap and expensive indicator holders.

I've used a few, and NOGA's are my favorites. The longer the arm, the better. I also prefer having a fine adjustment on the base and not on the arm. Doesn't wobble while you adjust it if its on the base.

Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/NOGA-Standard-Holder-Magnetic-Base/dp/B001VY07VQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1494561300&sr=8-5&keywords=noga+indicator+holder

Yeah, I feel your pain in trying to get a level bed, and at just the right height. Seeing as you have the same printer, you might be interested in getting one of these https://www.amazon.com/AccusizeTools-0-001-Dial-Indicator-P900-S102/dp/B00SG6CIVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484159862&sr=8-1&keywords=accusize+dial+indicator And mount it with this http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1998242

Makes it quick and easy to see how much variance there is on the bed height. I run some simple g-code that moves the probe around a 10x10 cm square centered on the build plate.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VY07VQ/

$87.99 + $8.16 shipping on amazon (ha I bought this one when it was amazon prime eligible). I use it every day

Oh I just saw you said 2 fine adjustments...

Noga mag bases are pretty hard to beat; they have two kits that include a rebranded Mitutoyo test or dial indicator (depending on the arm size)

NF61003 ($138 US)

DG61003 ($103 USD)

Depends on what you have and the level of accuracy needed.

Personally the easiest is an audible edge finder.

https://www.amazon.com/Brown-Sharpe-599-792-20-Audible-Diameter/dp/B0006J3DOA/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?keywords=edge+finder&qid=1570373019&sr=8-11

I've wondered why he hasn't made a coaxial indicator yet, seems right up his alley.

A few days ago I see an older vjo of his and it has a "aerospace" coax in it and now I see the 6" stylus from it in this one.

The stylus came from a kit like this.

My guess is that his next project is that surface gauge he was talking about forever ago.

I would get an indicol holder like this for a bridgeport.

Hotop Stainless Steel Feeler Gauge Dual Marked Metric and Imperial Gap Measuring Tool (0.04-0.88 mm, 32 Blades) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XHXJG31/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_XaZiDbHTRWA8H


Triton 1" Dial Indicator 0.001" Graduation Travel Lug Back White Face https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016R3GLB0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_4hZiDbGTVH01E

And I use a .090 2.2 mm


Use the dial indicator to “rough in” the bed and the feeler gauge to check the bed and fine tune.

You can get them off of amazon for cheap. this one is the one I designed this clip for.

Some of the best advice I received was to simply use a piece of paper and level your bed only at the leveling screws.

After you are close print one of these.
depth dial holder doohickey

And buy one of these to go into it.
dial indicator

After that you can throw away that annoying piece of paper.

To sweep in circular material, bolt hole patterns, etc. This is a fairly cheap one. You can use an indicator to do this also. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002YPA9JG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1394074669&sr=8-1

To sweep in your material to your cutter. Fairly high-end indicator, very precise. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0006J51CW/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1394074788&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70

To sweep (tramming) in your head to your table. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007EMPHVE/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1394075050&sr=8-1

Those are a couple basics for machine shop 101

here is the mount
and here is the sensor.