Yeah the majority of PUA material out there is contradictory and is missing the underlying principles which explains why and when certain methods and techniques will be successful or applicable. Normally people become successful from PUA material, not because the material was necessarily good advice, but simply because they derived confidence from having it and believing in it, took action, and women were attracted to that confidence. This was the actual secret behind anyone who became successful from reading "The Game," myself included.

Its often not what the words you say, or the actions you take, but the intent behind them. For example, let's break down giving compliments by citing another passage from the above book:

"Do not buy drinks, give insincere compliments, or perform actions whose sole purpose is to make a woman like you. Doing any of these things is the equivalent of trying to buy a woman’s affection. It also creates a feeling of indebtedness. No one wants to feel indebted, especially to someone that they don’t know. While the transaction of material possessions is clearly apparent, we often barter on a more subtle level through the giving of verbal compliments and affirmations.

Do not simply tell a girl what you think she wants to hear. Firstly, she knows when you are doing so. And secondly, she will respect you more for having your own opinions. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing on a subject. A woman will enjoy speaking to someone who challenges her, and is not simply agreeing with her in an attempt to win her over. Let there be some natural tension from controversy, which can generate emotions and make the conversation more interesting. When a woman knows that you are only trying to say what you think she wants to hear, she will lose respect and trust in you. When you speak your mind freely to a woman, she will be attracted by your honesty. She will feel that she can trust and use what you say to accurately discover who you are as a person.

Women know that guys of actual value do not need to try hard. Showering a girl with unsolicited and undeserved compliments, favors and gifts makes it look like you are overcompensating for something else. It shows that you feel that you must provide incentives for a woman to be interested in you. This comes from a deep-seeded belief that you are not good enough as you are. A high quality man does not need to buy a woman’s attention or affection, as he knows that he himself is enough.

Reflect deep inside and ask yourself: “From where is this action derived?” Does it come from a place of true altruism and a desire to provide value? Or are you actually bartering for something in return, such as a positive emotional response? Are your words sincere, or are you just telling someone what you think will make them happy?"

-Fundamentals of Female Dynamics

I am obsessed. Here is my current collection:

Most of these you can find on thepiratebay / etc, but I own a hard copy of all of these except for The Mystery Method, which I read probably 5 times before I found Magic Bullets (actually don't own that either, just the pdf). I'll add to this list if I think of more.

Must Reads:

Magic Bullets - Savoy ==>> [Torrent] it's expensive!

• This book is so excellent. It's like a PUA encyclopedia. It walks you through the process, and cites every major text along the way.. none of this "my way works best" crap, but not afraid to make judgments either. For pickup books that employ some form of the M3 Model (however loosely.. which I think means: everyone except Ross Jeffries), this is the authoritative text. If you have an approach that is proven, important, and credible, then it is probably cited in this book.
  
  Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion - Robert Cialdini
  
  
• I got this book because it is #1 on this list. Turns out, it is the modern version of Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People (see review below).. only this time, it's by someone who knows a thing or two about applied psychology (which either didn't exist back then, or was too under-developed to matter). This guy freaking went undercover as a used car salesman, working with fundraisers, etc. Interestingly enough, I bought this book in the same order as The Game, and in chapter 1 Strauss mentions reading Cialdini's book to prepare for a trip to Belgrade with Mystery, which was his formal introduction into the PUA community.
  
  The Art of Seduction - Robert Greene
  
  
• I'm not done with this one yet, but I will say this: if you have a conscience, don't read this. It really is a fascinating study of seduction, but it does focus on seduction as a tool to victimize people.. That said, unlike your typical pick-up type book which does not bother to categorize gamers' personality types, this book categorizes different "types" of seducers. This is extremely helpful because you can figure out what type of seducer fits you best, and what things you need to focus on to improve your game.
  
  How to Win Friends & Influence People - Dale Carnegie
  
  
• This book has sold over 15 million copies. It was originally written in 1937, but has been revised once or twice since it became the best selling self-help type book of all time, which it probably still is. He walks you through the basic principles of how to motivate people.. what works, what doesn't.. etc. Fun, easy, captivating read. It looks thick, but I think I unintentionally read it cover to cover in one sitting the first time I read it in college.. so it's a quick read.
  
  
  Should reads:
  
  The Game - Neil Strauss
  
  
• I think this is one of the best selling pick-up type books. I liked reading it, but it was less of a tutorial book and more of an autobiography.. it does get the job done though. It also is a very entertaining read, and if you doubt that PUA stuff actually works, this will prove to you otherwise because Strauss was a very timid and ugly mofo, but he fucked Jenna Jameson.
  
  The Mystery Method : How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed - Mystery, Chris Odom, Neil Strauss
  
  
• This introduced me into the world of PUA my senior year of college when I inadvertently stumbled upon a torrent of it (I was probably looking for something to jerk off to. How poetic). I downloaded it just to skim through it skeptically, but this book eventually introduced me to a whole new world. This is an excellent staple / beginner's text, even though I now recommend Magic Bullets because it is so much more objective and inclusive of alternate styles and approaches along the way.
  
  How to Get the Women You Desire into Bed - Ross Jeffries
  
  
• Not done with this yet, but Ross Jeffries is a freak (not meant to be insulting to him). I have no doubt that his methods are effective, but they are very different. And he really seems a bit evil, as opposed to merely mischievous like most other PUAs are. I haven't decided how incompatible, if not just different, his methods are with the Mystery / Strauss crowd.. but then again, I have never field tested any of his methods myself.
  
  Truth in Comedy: The Manual of Improvisation - Charna Halpern, Del Close, Kim Johnson
  
  
• A close friend of mine who studied improv in New York lent me this, and I forgot about it until recently -- but it is a very short but brilliant book about comedy. I'm listening now to David DeAngelo's Cock Comedy series, and I realized that almost everything he's saying is straight out of this little text. It's not really something essential for pick-up, which is why I wouldn't put it in Must Reads, but it is excellent nonetheless.
  
  
  Meh, they're alright:
  
  The Pickup Artist: The New and Improved Art of Seduction - Mystery, Neil Strauss
  
  
• You can definitely get some good stuff out of this book, but the whole thing comes across as an excuse for Mystery to brag about how awesome he is. He seriously spends an entire chapter (maybe more) telling a story about him bragging to other PUAs. He does deserve it though, the man is the single most influential PUA ever, if not the most successful in the field.
  
  Rules of the Game - Neil Strauss
  
  
• This is one of those books that you read once a day for 30 days, and write down statements of intent right in the book like "it is my goal to lose my virginity before my next birthday in 3 months." Probably good for beginners, but I skimmed through this after having been gaming in the field for several months.
  
  Haven't read yet:
  
  What Every BODY is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed-Reading People - Joe Navarro, Marvin Karlins
  
  
• This looks really good.
  
  NLP: The New Technology of Achievement - NLP Comprehensive
  
  Easy Mind-Reading Tricks - Robert Mandelberg, Ferruccio Sardella
  
  Palm Reading for Beginners: Find Your Future in the Palm of Your Hand (For Beginners (Llewellyn's)) - Richard Webster
  
  There are also some good videos out there (links are to torrents. these are all several hundred $$):
  
  
  Excellent Videos
  
  The Annihilation Method - Neil Strauss
  
  
• I met a guy who said he was looking around his apartment for things to sell so he could afford the $375 this costs. apparently he didn't think to check thepiratebay ;)
  
  Mystery and Style
  
  
• The videos of Mystery in here are just excellent. It's very interesting to see Mystery actually interacting with other people (not in a set), since he is the god of pick-up.
  
  Decent Videos
  
  Psychic Influence - Ross Jeffries
  
  
• This is interesting.. I'm not much of a Jeffries guy though, mostly because he's the most oddball of the group, and I haven't studied his material enough.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but a lot of these problems can be fixed by taking much longer with the preliminaries. You sound like you're like me and a lot of women. You take a while to get warmed up. And he wants to jump in with oral or PIV before you're even halfway warmed up and ready for it. And then PIV is an express train and once it starts it feels like it's out of your control.

[Note: being wet doesn't necessarily mean you're ready! See: The Mystery of Arousal and Vaginal Wetness.)

This doesn't work for everyone, but it really helps a lot of couples in similar situations:

Get a good folding massage table, some coconut oil, and some nice big soft towels.

Get a good book on sensual or erotic massage.

Start learning and practicing on each other. It feels wonderful and it's a huge education for both of you about your partner's body and how to give them maximum pleasure and how to guide them on giving you what you need.

In particular, it will take the pressure off of him and let him learn how to understand your timing and needs and how to satisfy your body without the distraction of dealing with his own arousal and orgasm. It will give you both the intimacy and the feeling of loving and being loved that you need, without getting frustrated or impatient because the other person's needs don't synchronize with your own.

Plus, the orgasms are amazing and you can have as many as you want! And regular sex gets better as a result, because you're more relaxed and you both understand each other's bodies so much better.

For example, he will discover how long it takes before you're ready for oral, and several good ways to get you there, and because he discovered it for himself, while he was in control and focused entirely on you, it will really stick this time. Once it's a habit, and he's learned your "tells," he can use that during regular sex without even having to think about it.

One final link, a plug for Shakti's tantra website: Extraordinary Passion -- The Art and Science of Modern Tantric Sex. Once you get everything back on track, you're going to be halfway to doing tantric sex anyway, and you're probably going to want to see how much more there is to do. That's the place to go when you're ready.

Good luck! I hope you guys get everything sorted out!

I personally think that you should appreciate women's beauty, however I feel that catcalling would be unnecessary i didn't see any approach done "right", i actually feel that people, specially men should learn some social dynamics specially towards talking to the opposite sex, and by this i don't mean learn pick up and fuck as many girls as possible and shit like that, but because I feel that its important to be able to connect with women in a way. I feel that a lot of rapes, and sexual frustration, and probably prostitution is because men want an easy way out, and don't want to put in the work to approach women, and now you could even go online dating if you don't like it but i think that men become more aware of how to deal with this certain situation, I am working on myself to be able to approach a girl and give her a genuine compliment and to mean it because I say it and say it because I mean it, not to get attention that just because by catcalling people I 'prove im manly' they come off as needy and shit.

Although I feel that people, specially women, if you learned some pick up or rather some more sociability they see that as ungenuine and even more chumpy, but the counter argument i would say is they are not being genuine either, they use make up and they are manipulating their appearance to look more attractive and in a way is manipulating me to think better of them, I am against some of the principles of pick up but the dating science isn't wrong, but its on the right path. I personally think that, like in my case, if you know you suck with women, and you don't want to be in a path of crappiness and neediness, via using prostitution to get laid or roofing people to get laid or rather rape girls, or vast usage of porn, I would say that its good.

I personally would recommend reading Models by Mark Manson because the book is really fucking awesome and it would make you a better man, and perhaps reading the 'further reading' books from that book help you understand the mating system of humans, and to become a better man. I think the book itself is actually really good because it states more than just to get laid is to find quality women to be fullfillled and be more happier with women, and in a way is actually attacking the dating science in a way by attacking The Mystery Method which all pick up could be summed up by that single book. In a way I would recommend both and take the best from both because neither of them is 'wrong' but niether one of them is 'right'. I do agree with Manson's idea of confidence and working in yourself more than in women and being sexualy fulllfilled doesn't require large amounts of women, while I also agree with Mystery's focus on competence vs. confidence because he says that you can't quantify confidence and rather focus on number of approaches and really statistics because that shows competence and successful competence breeds confidence eventually but in a way Manson's idea is better, because he is coming from a place of abundance of women and general happiness, is like saying being 'good' with women is something you are and not do and your looks, money demographics and ect does matter in the equation, over mystery's idea which is coming from neediness, because he refers as girls having 'high value' and by that you are infering that you aren't enough for her so you have to in a way manipulate yourself into making her thinking you are 'good enough' so that it doesn't matter if you look like a fucking troll no matter what if your 'game' is 'tight' it doesn't matter what even if the girl is married or anything really, she will sleep with you and that isn't the case, because mysetery uses a lot of indirect and 'fool proof' tactics that are more convoluted than just expressing your intent and if it doesn't work out move on asap, I'd say that take the best they both are right, and both concepts are correct but im leaning more the natural no scripts type of things and just being freeforming it.
I'd recommend both people getting those two books and they will change your life or at least make you think better and be more aware of how to flirt better. And perhaps reading Double your Dating by David DeAngelo, this one focuses more on dating girls and setting up and getting exposure to women over, is focused on both competence and confidence, and in a more natural way. I'd say get them, you can torrent them if you are so cheap, but defenitely read up on them and see what comes out of it.

So defenitely get Models by mark manson and Mystery Method because you can get a really clear picture on the subject of picking up women, and Double your Dating by David D just the simple ebook don't dig too much into it.

other books, I heard of them, and read some reviews on amazon and they seem to have really good reviews but I haven't gotten them or read them but they seem legit too.

Bang by roosh V

Day bang by roosh v

The manual by W. Anton

the Natural by richard la ruina

Get inside her by Marni Kinrys

they all seem like good resources to start and move on from there... and work on specific sticking point, but i'd say don't believe everything use them as guidelines and not as rules, and take them with a pinch of salt. the reason for this was because when I read the Mystery Method, it was well argued and every contingency is planned for, that I couldn't really find fault with the method, And so I believed all the "high value" bullshit that i fucking felt that i needed to one up everybody and that isn't the case, i was able to rescue myself from that mindset by Models, and I really thought it was genuine and it doesn't rely on too much bullshit and is more natural there is no one upping bullshit. I am not preching seduction community but i feel men should know what they are doing, specially if they suck like me, and be just more aware of things.

Perhaps i'd also reccomend
Gifts of Imperfection by Breene Brown since this book really digs somewhat on the self acceptance/self worth/self esteem part and what pick up artist would call 'inner game' ...
I'd say pick whatever books you want to BUT STOP reading too much into it, i became too paranoid and wanted to read every book on pick up out there and that is not the case guys, hope i helped.

TLDR--read books, become aware, know better, don't be a creep but don't be chump either, get informed guys know your shit,

My SO and I have been together for nearly 28 years and the sex has been terrific for almost all of that time.

However, we actually HAD a DB, during the third year we were together. We discovered that the kind of sex that worked for us at the beginning was not sustainable. During those first two years, we had pretty normal high-intensity sex almost every night. At first, the NRE and the thrill of having passionate sex with a wonderful man was enough to carry me along.

But as the NRE wore off, as I came under more stress from other things, as we both came under a lot more time pressure, and as sex became more of a routine, I stopped getting much pleasure from it. I would get barely aroused and then be left hanging, and eventually even the arousal part dwindled to nothing. It started to feel actively unpleasant and I started looking for excuses to avoid it, even though I loved him with all my heart and really, really didn't want to lose him.

We did a lot of research and experimentation, and solved what turned out to be a multi-sided problem, including communication and stress management. But the most important change was adopting a completely different approach to sex itself. We did sensate focus therapy/sensual massage therapy for months. We also learned to meditate, and then started doing tantric sex on a regular basis.

This has become the anchor of our week. We try hard to block out time every Sunday morning that is just for each other. Within that, each tantra session we do is about 3 to 3.5 hours. It's terrific sex: intense, passionate, orgasmic, loving, joyful, and fun. It's a way of telling each other at an almost cellular level how much we love each other and love giving each other pleasure.

I've written a lot about ways to sustain the passion in a long-term relationship, with an emphasis on edging, sensual massage, and tantric sex. Here are some links that others have found helpful:

• Sustainable sex in LTRs
  
  
• Escaping a Dead Bedroom – our own experience and how we recovered from it
  
  
• What Lesbian Couples Can Teach Straight Couples About Good Sex
  
  If things have gotten stale, sensate focus therapy is probably the best way for couples to reconnect at both the physical level and the emotional level. You can do it with the help of a sex therapist or do it on your own:
  
  
• Sensate Focus Therapy
  
  
• In-depth Diary Of UK Sex Therapy
  
  
• Sensate Focus Therapy for Mismatched Libidos (also for PE and for helping women learn to have orgasms)
  
  Some books you might want to check out:
  
  
• The Joy of Sex
  
  
• Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
  
  
• She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman
  
  
• Erotic Massage for Couples
  
  This is a collection of articles I wrote about having better sex; it includes several articles on erotic massage, including reviews of videos and a website (OMG Yes!!!) that demonstrate excellent technique:
  
  
• A Beginner's Guide to Good, Great, and Amazing Sex
  
  For couples who are interested in going beyond erotic massage, this article is an overview of the secular (non-religious) kind of tantric sex:
  
  
• What is Tantric Sex?
  
  ...and this is a book-length instruction manual that is online and free:
  
  
• Extraordinary Passion: The Art and Science of Modern Tantric Sex
  
  I hope this helps!

“Practical Female Psychology: For the Practical Man” by Joseph South, David Clare and Franco is a book I am currently reading after seeing it mentioned in the comments of a recent post on The Rational Male.

Put simply, it’s the best book on red pill theory I have ever read. Right up there with Rollo’s books. It was published in 2008, so was written by contemporaries of our esteemed elders Pook, Roissy, Roosh, Rollo and others.

It is so good, and yet, in one year of red pill awareness, I had never seen it mentioned or suggested anywhere. So I thought it’d deserve its own post, rather than me casually mentioning it in a comment next time someone asks for book suggestions.

I so strongly encourage you to get it and read it that I’ll allow myself to reprint here a particularly good chapter to motivate you. Hopefully it's ok to do so and will bring some traffic to the authors' amazon page. Before I’d do so, I’d provide a quick lesson learned:

• Frequent other red pill websites than this sub, and particularly the comments sections of blogs. There are some gems out there.
  
  PS: Feel free to debate and oppose the ideas but remember the following are not my writings – just reprinting.
  
  ---
  
  

  Chapter 11 Stages of Manipulation
  

  
  > When it comes to marriage, one man is as good as the next. And even the least accomodating is less trouble than a mother.
  

• Marquise de Merteuil in "Les Liaisons Dangereuses," by Choderlos De Laclos.
  
  We believe that manipulation is an instinctual behavior deeply rooted within female biology. Manipulation is also a learned behavior, due to one's need for survival. From a biological point of view there is not too much of a difference between biologically-rooted and learned behavior. In fact, from the point of view of both modern neurobiology and evolutionary psychology, behaviors repeated and learned over time become deeply rooted in the neurological patterns within the brain, to the point where the behavior becomes largely unconscious. As individuals are prone to choose behaviors which support survival, manipulation has certainly been selected as a desirable survival skill.
  
  Manipulation can be defined as the attempt to influence another person's mind to achieve a certain outcome. Manipulation is very often seen as a negative thing. We, however, are not judgmental about manipulation, and actually consider it a positive feature, which has been designed to keep life continuing on this planet.
  
  In order to best manage relationships with women, the Modern Man should understand that there are various stages of manipulation that a woman will go through during the course of a relationship with a man.
  
  On the biological level, the female of our species is programmed to:
  
  

1. Elicit a strong sexual attraction in one or more strong males.
   
   
2. Feel a strong sexual attraction for such males.
   
   
3. Become impregnated by her choice of male.
   
   
4. Have a male to provide materially for both her and her infant child.
   
   
5. Afterwards, she will subconsciously tend to operate in such a way so as to have her sexual attraction for that male decrease.
   
   
6. Wash, rinse, repeat: she will tend to have more sexual intercourse and more children with other strong males.
   
   We call this process betaization, where the strong, alpha male is rendered beta — which means "secondary" or "subservient" — within the relationship, over a period of time. Quite often, this process occurs gradually and almost imperceptibly to both parties.
   
   Manipulation is widely used by women to achieve:
   
   

• Safety and comfort for her and her children, with their survival being the primary purpose.
  
  
• To thereby influence the man's mind in such a way that he will feel compelled to protect her and her children, especially before pregnancy, during the pregnancy and throughout the children's early developmental years.
  
  Female manipulation can be either creative or destructive, depending on the desired outcome. From the point of view of the man, female manipulation can be considered "good" when it supports life and the man's interests and "bad" when it destroys life and/or damages the man's interests.
  
  Succinctly, the more manipulation is used by a woman, the more it becomes natural and unconscious to her. It is like learning to play a musical instrument: at first it is difficult and one needs to pay conscious attention to each note being played, Then, as mastery is gradually achieved, manipulation becomes more and more unconscious.
  
  Behaviors are slow to develop and also slow to be unlearned. In the modem woman of the industrialized countries, the way instincts are expressed has changed slightly with time, due to less-demanding survival conditions. However, the influence of the female's primal instincts on her behavior remains evident.
  
  It is important for you to learn to recognize manipulation. In fact — as we discussed in Chapter 4 "Female Basic Conflict" — for a woman's sexuality to be satisfied, it is important that her manipulation attempts against her man not be too effective. You must learn to observe female behavior and give the right responses, with the goal of making her happy on the emotional level, as opposed to responding to manipulation attempts on a logical level.
  
  Learning to respond appropriately requires knowing the various stages of female manipulation.
  
  

  Stages of Female Manipulation
  

  
  A woman's attempt to own you mentally will follow certain incremental stages, which predictably occur with mathematical precision. We will now discuss each of the following stages in detail:
  
  

• Testing the Male
  
  
• Seeking Communication
  
  
• Putting him to Work
  
  
• Evolutionary Selfishness
  
  
• Self-Determination
  
  Depending on the woman's self-esteem, there are big differences in the way these stages will play themselves out. If a woman has high self-esteem (HSE), she will test you and manipulate you in a totally different way than a woman who has low self-esteem (LSE).
  
  

  Testing the Male
  

  
  "Let me be a little bitch to him.” A woman knows on the instinctual level — and also on the rational level — that a man can impregnate a large number of women without too many consequences. In our modem age of mandatory child support, this is not always true in practical terms, but biologically it remains the case that the female has a much higher risk and burden when it comes to pregnancy than the man does.
  
  A woman also knows that a weak male will not be able to protect her or her children in any way. Imagine as a man how your thoughts about survival would be different if every time you made love to a woman you faced the possibility of carrying a baby in your belly for the next nine months, followed by the primary responsibility of taking care of the baby for many years to come. Imagine how you would feel if you knew that your partner could leave you at any time and impregnate other women and/or leave for war or for hunting. Get the picture? You would become much more selective in your choices of who to mate with. From this biological reality stems the deep need that a woman has to test the male for his physical and leadership qualities. In our modern society, the need to test for physical qualities and financial stability has become less important than the need for qualities such as leadership, intellectual capacity, and strength of personality; but that would be quickly reversed in the case of war.
  
  One thing is for sure: a woman in this stage will test the male for his skill of being a hunter. This will happen whether you are skilled in hunting animals in the grassy field or company shares in the business field; you can be sure that at the first stage of manipulation a woman will test you.
  
  A woman will always test a male who she is sexually attracted to. For a psychologically healthy woman, survival and sexual desire must always harmonize with each other. A woman who tests men only for survival benefits — such as a man's ability to provide — is denying her sexuality. A woman who tests men only for their sexual appeal, is either planning to live her life without men, or is being self-destructive.
  
  

  Seeking Communication
  

  
  "Open up to me, please."
  
  Once a woman has tested the male, and is relatively sure that he is strong enough to serve her purposes, her concern begins to revolve around making the man serve her exclusively. Many men who are relatively strong and pass the tests of the first stage, fail to understand the meaning of this second stage. This stage is extremely difficult for the average man to detect. It is instinctually and often unconsciously masked by the woman as a purely innocent attempt to "communicate" with the male.
  
  It is a feature of the feminine psyche to appreciate communication above all else, but from an evolutionary point of view what the female of our species is really doing at this stage is using language to befuddle her partner, which will hopefully cause him to serve her and her purposes.
  
  This stage is extremely important to the success or failure of couple relationships. Couple therapy fails so frequently because it tends to disregard the real, evolutionary meaning of this stage. A very common pitfall for couples is when the woman starts to feel that the man is displaying an inability or unwillingness to "communicate properly" with the woman. Modern couples therapy almost invariably places the blame for this supposed lack of communication squarely on the man's shoulders.
  
  In the first stage, the woman has screened out the weaker males; the man was specifically chosen by the woman for a relationship. In this second stage, the woman acts as if she is seeking deeper communication with the man. A strong man will start to sense that an attempt is being made to weaken him, and he will then usually react with certain predictable behavior patterns. He may get angry or he may withdraw.
  
  
  

I have a lot of sympathy for you - I have struggled with loneliness and hating not having a girlfriend and a feeling of having missed out in my early 20s. I've had some success though and managed to improve things a lot so I'll give some suggestions.

Women don't want to date you because you don't have characteristics that are attractive to them. From the way you describe it it sounds like you think there is something fundamentally wrong with you. This doesn't make sense - women aren't looking at some label in your soul that says 'fundamentally unattractive' and rejecting you. They're looking at a bundle of characteristics most of which you can improve.

So what can you do?

First, work on your mental health. Mental health influences everything else - how you come across, how motivated you will be to improve your situation, and how happy you will be when you're alone. Go to a therapist (and keep trying therapists if the first one isn't helpful). See a doctor to discuss treatment such as antidepressants. Read 'feeling good' (on depression) and 'when panic attacks' (on anxiety) by David Burns. Keep trying - mental health is a complicated beast and you have to keep experimenting to find what works.

Second, learn to be ok alone. I know this is exactly the opposite of what you want to hear and I ignored this advice for a long time. There are a few problems with not being ok with being alone. First is that you'll be unhappy when you're alone - and it's very possible to actually enjoy yourself a lot. Also, if you're not ok with being alone, women will detect your desperation and find it unattractive. And finally, not being ok with being alone fucks up your relationships when you're in them. I've constantly had problems in relationships with being too anxious and unassertive because I was afraid of losing the relationship. You've got it backwards, you don't need to solve the relationship problem in order to solve the self image problem you have. It is exactly the reverse - solving the self-image problem is the first step to solving the relationship problem.

So how do you do this? Go read the first 4 chapters of Intimate Connections, by David Burns (I'm a bit of a burns fan). There is a pdf here. He is a therapist and psychology researcher, and struggled with women early in his life so he knows what he's talking about. And do what he recommends about spending time alone. I've followed his advice for the last few months as well as getting therapy and my perspective has changed enormously. I've tried doing lots of things alone and really loved it whereas before I thought I never could. I'd still like a girlfriend but it's no longer this all-encompassing desperate need. And this isn't some kind of self deceptive trick where I'm ignoring what I really want, I've genuinely learnt that being alone is okay and I can be happy.

Third, build attractive characteristics. There are a bunch of characteristics that women tend to find attractive such as: fitness, creativity, intelligence, social skills, humour, etc. The great thing about these characteristics is that it's fun to build them and make life better independent of the fact that there are attractive. To learn more about this read the book Mate and listen to the accompanying podcast where they go into a lot of detail on advice. Unlike most dating advice, the advice in the book is by a psychologist and is based on scientific research.

Fourth, be more social and meet women. There's lots of advice on this in the above book and podcast but the basic idea is do things that you enjoy that involve women and get to know them.

A few other tips:

• Avoid PUA, it fucks with your head. At its worst it's advice on manipulation and sexual assault. But even at its best it exacerbates the problem where you think that everything is about getting a girlfriend. And the advice is like a warped version of reality. True enough to sort of help, but false enough that it causes you problems in the long run.
  
• You don't have to do the above steps perfectly in order, although it's worth really focusing on the alone time and mental health for a month or so at first.
  
• The stuff you mention about feeling like it's screwing up your life plan or that you want a better past is totally understandable. I've had exactly the same thoughts. These thoughts aren't reality and are part of your mental health problem. They are the kind of things that you can work on in cognitive behavioural therapy. And fixing them isn't about deluding yourself. I had a aversion to cognitive behavioural therapy for a while because I thought it was about deluding yourself and thinking positively for no reason. That's not what it's about - you're currently deluding yourself with these thoughts, and cognitive behavioural therapy can help you see reality more clearly.
  
• You're talking like getting a girlfriend is the solution to your problems. It's not. If you magically got a relationship now your insecurities and causes of your unhappiness would still be there. And it would cause big problems for the relationship.
  
• Don't assume that there is one linear scale of male attractiveness where at the top are rich, muscular, high status guys and all women would agree on the ranking. In reality different different women want different things. You'll be attractive to a certain type of woman and an unattractive to others. It's all about finding the kind of woman you like that also tends to like you. For example, I do relatively well with educated, intellectual, slightly outdoorsy women. I'd do terrible with the kind of woman that goes clubbing all the time.
  
  Some other books that I've found helpful:
  
  
• Models by Mark Manson. Really helps with what women want and dealing with your psychology.
  
• No More Mr Nice Guy. A lot of us have problems with relationships because we are too 'nice' (while not actually being nice). This book really helps with that.
  
  Good luck! This is a tough, long journey, but one that's incredibly rewarding.

> tldr; 27 yo has dating experience of a 13 yo and can't even get a second look.

A couple of thoughts to help you out:

First, remind yourself of this "Guys are just really ugly girls." (It's a metaphor OK, don't go too far with it) and ask yourself if you're comfortable talking to strange (to you) males? If the answer is "no," then you need to work on the basics of conversing with others. So, start with the basics:

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

How to Talk to Anyone by Leil Lowndes

How to Instantly Connect with Anyone by Leil Lowndes

How to Start a Conversation and Make Friends by Don Gabor

If you've got basic "conversation / small-talk with strangers" nailed, then there is a fair amount of good material out there on how to start conversations with girls; and how to interact with them in a positive way. See:

The big honking list of openers put out by TSB and the books The Game, The Mystery Method, and/or The Pickup Artist.

Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction is a valuable read as well.

FWIW, I think you'll get more useful answers to a question like this on /r/seduction. /r/relationship_advice seems geared more towards managing an existing relationship, whereas /r/seduction is heavily focused on the "initiation phase." There is a TON of material out there on how to overcome anxiety about approaching women, TONS of stuff on how to be a better conversationalist, stuff on how to amp her attraction for you, etc., etc.

Two links that might be of use to you:

New to Seddit?

Fast Seduction.com "You Are New"

Good luck!

• Shorten sentences to make them easier to read. Add playful positive description. You're trying to hook a girl with charm, not tell your life story.
  
• Mention social particulars that may set you apart from the crowd in a positive way: Brewing, marijuana, and tattoos (in your pic) are great examples.
  
• Give direct examples of awesomeness like what "interesting things" you've created to eat and drink, or that one "live music" show you really really liked.
  
• Do NOT mention negative things like "creepy winks" or "awkward guys". Although you don't mean to, you'll subconsciously be associated with them. Be associated with positive things and awesome guys instead.
  
• Read blogs.okcupid.com. They have some extremely helpful information.
  
  As a reference, I read half of How to Succeed with Women and, though I almost upchucked halfway through it, I learned a lot about how to be attractive at the conversational level.

Most young males operating in a scarcity mindset catch the disease Oneitis at some point in their young adult lives. If not promptly caught and cured, Oneitis can take years away from one’s life. You can pour all your time and energy into a lost cause instead of using it to improve yourself. Having suffered myself from a very dire case of the disease, I am accustomed to the symptoms. The symptoms of Oneitis can include:

 Spending an abnormal amount of time thinking and obsessing over one girl.

 Believing that one girl is completely different from every other girl that you have ever met.

 Believing that one girl is the most beautiful girl in the world.

 Believing that there is no other girl for you but her.

 Believing that no one else could ever match the love that you have for a girl.

 Believing that a girl is absolutely perfect and could do no wrong in your eyes.

 Putting a girl before everything else in your life.

An additional symptom would include not seeing anything wrong with holding the above beliefs. You may believe that if a girl only truly knew how much you cared about her, that she would love you in return. However, this is not the way attraction or love actually works. When you truly love a person, you do not need anything from them in return. Arriving at this realization took me years and was the most painful lesson that I have ever had to learn. There is no such thing as “the one,” but only people who are more or less compatible together. Love is something you build, not something you find.

While I have no doubt that the feelings which you have are genuine, these feelings originate from a place of scarcity and fear. You may mistake the burning desire you have for a woman as the being the truest form of love. Fear resulting from scarcity infiltrates the heart and amplifies certain emotions to an unhealthy level. If this is the first time that you have ever felt this way, then you may be terrified of losing the woman for whom you feel these feelings. You may fear that you may never again feel this same way about anyone else. The truth is that you may be right. However, this is not due to you having lost out on the love of your life, but to the fact that you no longer live in scarcity. Once the scarcity mindset is removed, you can find someone with whom you can have a relationship with that is built on positive emotions, instead of the hidden underlying emotions of loneliness and fear.

Now looking back, having my heart broken was one of the best things that could have ever happened to me. Had a need based relationship instead ensued, I would have never become the person I am today. I would have unknowingly submitted to comfort and security rather than venturing out into the world to learn its truths for myself. I would have remained a weak man and never developed the deep self-love, self-confidence and self-reliance which are prerequisites to unselfishly loving another person.
Source

Most young males operating in a scarcity mindset catch the disease Oneitis at some point in their young adult lives. If not promptly caught and cured, Oneitis can take years away from one’s life. You can pour all your time and energy into a lost cause instead of using it to improve yourself. Having suffered myself from a very dire case of the disease, I am accustomed to the symptoms. The symptoms of Oneitis can include:

• Spending an abnormal amount of time thinking and obsessing over one girl.
  
• Believing that one girl is completely different from every other girl that you have ever met.
  
• Believing that one girl is the most beautiful girl in the world.
  
• Believing that there is no other girl for you but her.
  
• Believing that no one else could ever match the love that you have for a girl.
  
• Believing that a girl is absolutely perfect and could do no wrong in your eyes.
  
• Putting a girl before everything else in your life.
  
  An additional symptom would include not seeing anything wrong with holding the above beliefs. You may believe that if a girl only truly knew how much you cared about her, that she would love you in return. However, this is not the way attraction or love actually works. When you truly love a person, you do not need anything from them in return. Arriving at this realization took me years and was the most painful lesson that I have ever had to learn. There is no such thing as “the one,” but only people who are more or less compatible together. Love is something you build, not something you find.
  
  While I have no doubt that the feelings which you have are genuine, these feelings originate from a place of scarcity and fear. You may mistake the burning desire you have for a woman as the being the truest form of love. Fear resulting from scarcity infiltrates the heart and amplifies certain emotions to an unhealthy level. If this is the first time that you have ever felt this way, then you may be terrified of losing the woman for whom you feel these feelings. You may fear that you may never again feel this same way about anyone else. The truth is that you may be right. However, this is not due to you having lost out on the love of your life, but to the fact that you no longer live in scarcity. Once the scarcity mindset is removed, you can find someone with whom you can have a relationship with that is built on positive emotions, instead of the hidden underlying emotions of loneliness and fear.
  
  Now looking back, having my heart broken was one of the best things that could have ever happened to me. Had a need based relationship instead ensued, I would have never become the person I am today. I would have unknowingly submitted to comfort and security rather than venturing out into the world to learn its truths for myself. I would have remained a weak man and never developed the deep self-love, self-confidence and self-reliance which are prerequisites to unselfishly loving another person.
  
  Excerpt from the book: Fundamentals of Female Dynamics by Michael Knight

Owned

Personal/family/divorce past: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/4lew12/postdivorce_perspective_part_2/ . Owned and CLOSED. There will be no more discussion of some of my personal topics never ever.

Me as ACA / listening to my instincts. OWNED. There were some people in my life that I did not trust at all. They're out.

Health/fitness: gym - owned. Sugar addiction - owned, I overate and ate sugar in the past days, I created a journal to keep track on this, I realized at the gym that the sugar really makes me way weaker than I was, I realized that I feel "down" after eating sugar. Rationalization - why not, but rationalizations work too sometimes (like Allen Carr's book on smoking).

Family (divorced) and my sick narcissistic head: owned - I did not went into any conflicts this week, not that I did not want to. Plans for the next week - owned too.

Money: started selling electronics, thinking about starting some projects with "work B" for extra monies, I feel like I'm getting there.

Flat: clean, but there are still things to sort out. Flat is owned, because I keep it tidy. Still needs organizing though.

Me as PUA: finished this one https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Female-Psychology-Man-ebook/dp/B00RR6RNO6 , started this one: https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty-ebook/dp/B005EOTH24 . Told FWB that I am not planning to be exclusive, brought some drama, but as a result I felt GREAT because perhaps for the first time in my life I was absolutely honest with the woman and with myself. Asked out a girl that I really liked - perhaps for the first time in my life too I'm going after my instincts, my heart, if a specific woman is what I want, I should open her, I SHOULD LET THE FUCKING ADVENTURE OF LIFE HAPPEN and stop being all the time in control and in fear.

Not owned

Money: my income should be bigger.

Body fat: should be lower.

There are specific red things on my MAP, that I added this week, but I'm not going into details, I'd rather save some time to get them done.

Thanks, MRP.

By posting on Reddit ;) JK. This is something that I have been struggling with too, as my church is in a small town and everyone is over 50 and constantly asking me why I'm not married yet. It's great! But, just try to find a young adult group at another church, or just go to other events at other churches. Go online and see if other churches around you have young adult groups. But here's a book that's a really really great resource: How To Get A Date Worth Keeping: Be Dating In Six Months Or Your Money Back https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310262658/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_w7K-AbRXVQJD7
Like, I know that the title seems really sketch. Like really sketch. Like I almost didn't read it just because the title is dumb. But, it makes some really good points and is super helpful. I highly recommend it. And it approaches dating from a Christian point of view. Hope this helps

No problem!

It's a book. I got my copy on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Surrendered-Single-Practical-Attracting/dp/0743217896/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409767508&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=the+surrended+single

I would say once would be enough as long as you are very clear in the way that you communicate. That being said, if he is the one bringing it up you could certainly talk about it more.

He also needs to know that if he asked you, you would say yes. Not that you have to say that outright, but again, he will know by the way you treat him.

Perhaps more experienced (i.e. married) ladies would have a different perspective?

I think it's also about holding firm boundaries. If you say, for example, that you don't want to live together before marriage, then don't agree to live together thinking it will get you what you want. To me, that's where the manipulative behavior comes in.

The right captain cares about your happiness and your desires. I think your job is just to make your desires clear and then he can decide if that is something he is able to do and wants to do.

Seriously, the book is really great. I highly recommend it!

There is no such thing as normal. Even normal people are pretty screwed up it just takes some time to figure it out.

Kissing is pretty straightforward. Whoever she is will teach you. There is lots of online guidance on all of these topics. Some of it is even useful :-)

Performing in the bedroom is a problem you can kick down the road a ways as you have to find somebody first. If you want to do some hookups to get better at being physical with women, go ahead; but I think sex will work much better for you with someone you've spent more time with.

There are books on many of these topics. Some can be quite useful. I read a book on body language a few years back, followed the guidance and did really well almost immediately despite being pretty useless before. This is that book: http://www.amazon.com/Love-Signals-Practical-Language-Courtship/dp/0312315066/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345740030&sr=1-1&keywords=love+signals

[I'm so autistic when it comes to social skills that I need to research the topics so that I can develop some skills. This book really worked.]

A favorite memory: A woman spotted me in a restaurant, then called the place to get the maitre d to hand me a note "Call me" with her name and number on it.

You can have a relationship without burdening your partner with your issues, that's what your therapist/pdoc is for. Try it then try it again. Don't worry about failing. Most of us need plenty of practice until we find someone who works for us.

And you can always look at it this way. Many women like to take on men with problems and try to fix them. Some of your weaknesses could even end up being strengths.

Please get out there and give it a try.

Can second the idea of you coming along to the Pro Domme at least the first time to watch and maybe understand some, even if it feels super uncomfortable. In my marriage, I'm the kinky one, and he's vanilla. HE actually arranged for us to go see a Pro Domme together... so I could experience irl submission (yummy) and he could watch, learn (get hard, LOL). If she's a good Pro Domme, you can each talk to her in advance, if you like, and tell her some of what is going on. This context was helpful for our session, and she was almost like a sex therapist, too.

Going forward, the good thing about him seeing a Pro Domme is ... that she's a PROfessional. She isn't interested in stealing him from you, building a relationship with him, etc. From a fidelity standpoint, I think it's the safest option for him to fulfill these needs within your marriage.

There are a number of good books about carving out some sort of poly arrangement in a marriage, much like your husband described. One that I thought was good was "Designer Relationships" by Michaels and Johnson.

Pretty clear what happened. Traditionally she would put her heart first and if you didn’t make that sing you wouldn’t get the chance with her body. The alcohol bypassed the heart step to go straight to her body but her heart still isn’t excited.

If you want her for more than her body you’ll need to go back to the detour and make the turn again. Seduction may not be welcome but it sounds like it’s worth a try. Start with something like this book:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0735204357/

Here's the thing - healthy attracts healthy, drama attracts drama, unhealthy attracts unhealthy. People don't generally go more than 1-2 points above/below where they are at (see link below for scales).

How emotionally/relationally healthy are you? Self-aware? Mature? BOUNDARIES to know what are problems you're responsible for vs others? Do you have a 'rescuer' complex where you want to be the protector of a girl in need?

I'd also advise looking over your enneagram and see where you fall in the levels of health for your type. Counseling and other personal growth are essential to changing your path (it takes WORK just like getting into physical shape, getting into emotional/relational shape takes time).

IME people can grow 1 level of health per year (and that's with dedicated work b/c changing thinking patterns/habits takes a long time). So if you're currently a Level 4-5, you're picking up girls who are 5-6 (or even 7). You need to be a 3 at least to have a healthy, stable relationship.

Enneagram Types:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-descriptions/

Click to learn your type. Also examine what in your family's history might have set you up to be attracted to women with major issues. Are your other relatives codependent? How do they handle boundaries? Here's a book on boundaries in dating: https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Dating-Healthy-Choices-Relationships-ebook/dp/B000SEHPZG

Oh well if you had said yes then I would have told you to better improve yourself and things like that since college is very different than high school, but I completely understand your situation. However, it's still not over. There are still plenty of things that you can do to get girls. First off, just know to be yourself and try to better improve yourself. For example, your social skills. Then try to use some dating apps/websites to find some girls that you're into. There is a book that I have heard is very good if you want to be in a relationship with somebody. Here's the link: https://www.amazon.com/Mate-Become-Man-Women-Want/dp/B01LTHXJVE. Please don't take this as an offensive or anything like that. I'm just trying to help you that's it!

[Sex Stuff] The Manwhore Podcast: A Sex-Positive Quest for Love - Ep. 178: Hairy Porn and Age Play with Nikki Silver

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PLUS: incest roleplay, ManwhoreCon, age play, Designer Relationships, cats, and stinky pits!

ManwhoreCon is just ONE month away! Get your tickets today!

Check out Nikki Silver (NSFW)!

NaughtyNatural.com

Twitter: @xNikkiSilverx

Get yourself a copy of Designer Relationships: A Guide to Happy Monogamy, Positive Polyamory, and Optimistic Open Relationships. It’s the first poly book to teach me something new.

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I can't speak to the breach of trust, but I'll share some poly resources with you: not all will apply to you, but I don't know what will and what won't.

A Guide To Hunting Unicorns: By A Unicorn
https://fetlife.com/groups/107/group_posts/1775830

https://www.unicorns-r-us.com

couples privilege
https://tacit.livejournal.com/578925.html

10 rules for good Polyamory
https://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/10-realistic-rules-for-good-non-monogamous-relationships/

The Polyamorist Next Door
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-polyamorists-next-door

https://greatist.com/live/learn-your-monogamy-style

If you're a straight man this book is supposed to be decent:
Playing Fair: A Guide to Nonmonogamy for Men into Women (Thorntree Fundamentals) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1944934383/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EDXDCb95FBK5K


Podcasts:
Poly Weekly
http://polyweekly.com/

Multiamory
https://www.multiamory.com/

Erotic Awakening: (kink and poly podcast)
http://www.eroticawakening.com/

Loving without Boundaries
http://lovingwithoutboundaries.com/podcast/

events list:
https://polyevents.blogspot.com/2014/08/upcoming-events.html?m=1

If you're truly looking for a book to help you talk to women or learn how to play the field or at least get a shot with someone you think is out of your league, read "How to succeed with women". This isn't a funny post for Internet points, but an honest recommendation for a book that changed my life years ago. My friends and I, all computer nerds, read this (dubbed - the black book) and every one of us has positive results. If you suck at the game, or want to increase your odds, do yourself a favor and at least make this a bathroom reader for a few weeks.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0735204357/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1411708347&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40

I know this is a triggering word here, but what you're looking for is "Game".

As a "nice guy", it can be hard to go out and look for information on this because so much of what is written out there on the internet is written with a misogynistic and twisted worldview.

However, it can help to discard the source and take these techniques and theories at their face value.

I can start by recommending some books.

1. The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi. This will set the framework for intergender dynamics.
   
   
2. Mate: Become the Man Women Want by Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller.
   
   Feel free to PM me if you want. I have coached guys on this from time to time and quite enjoy doing it.

Talk talk talk. That's the secret to any relationship - esp poly.

Poly means different things to different people. There is no one correct way. Poly is what you and partners decide it is. Everyone has different reasons about why they are poly.

Personally, I think that it is cruel to expect everything I want from one person. I have enough love to share and my lovers all have different roles in my life. I tired poly when I was not ready and got consumed by jealousy and relationship drama. We make mistakes and we learn. It takes a LOT of emotional maturity, patience, and trust to be in a healthy poly relationship. Poly is not for everyone and it doesn't need to be. Nothing wrong with monogamy if that's your thing.

I think people are more fascinated with the idea of poly. And reality is not always that glamorous. So many people want a quick peep into the lifestyle. The taboo is alluring. But many people also cannot get over the possessiveness and insecurity. No matter how secure you are in yourself and how strong your relationship is, being in a real life poly situation will bring up insecurities and challenge your relationship. If you both work on it together, you will become more close and trusting of each other. It can also drive a wedge between you both.

I would also suggest any of the the below books.

• Designer Relationships: A Guide to Happy Monogamy, Positive Polyamory, and Optimistic Open Relationships - https://www.amazon.com/Designer-Relationships-Monogamy-Polyamory-Optimistic/dp/1627781471/
  
• The Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships & Other Adventures - https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664/
  
• Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic - https://www.amazon.com/Mating-Captivity-Reconciling-Erotic-Domestic/dp/0060753633/
  
• Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships - https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Creating-Sustaining-Relationships/dp/157344295X/
  
• Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality - https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Prehistoric-Origins-Sexuality/dp/0061707805/

Since your partner is a straight male, you should both check out this blog post and this book about nonmonogamy for men who are into women.

You should also both be aware that some of your rules are going to make it extremely difficult for him to find additional partners, especially the prohibition on partners coming to your apartment and the financial restrictions. Those will likely be deal-breakers for many polyamorous women, who want at least the option to go on a vacation with a partner or go to his place (which would preferably be his own place, and not the apartment he shares with you, but I guess you two maintaining separate living quarters is out of the question). Also, are other men allowed to spend money on you, buy you expensive gifts, or go on vacation with you? If so, you may want to re-examine why you're ok with this double-standard, and if your partner is.

I see that you edited your initial post and removed the part where you said "our relationship comes first." However, if you still believe that inside, be aware that that will also limit your partner's chances of finding someone. Many polyamorous women won't settle for such a clear hierarchical demarcation. Read up on "couple privilege" and try to move away from that line of thinking. Your partners' other partners are people, too, and you need to fully accept that his relationships with them are as serious and important as your relationship with him.

Finally, if your partner actually used the word "cuck" then he needs to drastically change his way of thinking about women, relationships, and the world in general, before trying to date.

So on the /r/ChristianMarriage sub, we have a resources page that hits lots of the top names across the Christian romantic relationships spectrum. The problem with dating books is that dating is such a transient status in the Christian world that you're not going to find much written specifically about dating beyond viewing it as a means of getting you into a marriage or protecting you from marrying someone who's not a good match for you. This said, I honestly would recommend engagement books as a good starting place.

This said, I've heard good / great things about these:

• Boundaries in Dating
  
• Single, Dating, Engaged, Married

I've questioned myself my whole life over this matter. In short, I think it's worth it. My conviction at ~11 years old became 'If I sleep with someone I'm not married to, I've cheated on the woman I eventually marry, and will have led someone else in to cheating on their eventual husband.' This made for some very awkward times at points in college and my early single life, but I've been happily married over a decade, and I think that conviction is part of it. There's a level of trust and intimacy that my wife and I share that has its foundations in our behavior before we were married.

I probably would have messed up if I hadn't found a community of like-minded people. The encouragement and accountability you get are invaluable. You might also find I Kissed Dating Goodbye to be a helpful read.

I encourage each and every one of my friends to go to premarital counseling, and do any of them do it? Nope. It's stupid that so much is put into the ceremony and reception and not the actual relationship. I wish premarital counseling would become a popular wedding trend like mason jars and sand ceremonies. If you can't afford it you can get a book like Intellectual Foreplay.

10 Great Dates

Fireproof my Marriage

Focus on the Family

The Dove Foundation

Plugged In

Thriving Family

Desiring God - The Single Person's Good Desire for Sex

Bible Teacher's Guide: Building Foundations For A Godly Marriage: A Pre-Marriage, Marriage Counseling Study

Grace to You sermons on Family

Truth For Life sermons on Marriage, Parenting, & Sexuality

Boundaries in Marriage & Dating

How to Succeed with Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland for the men.

How to Succeed with Men by Ron Louis and David Copeland for the women.

I haven't read the latter but I am currently working through the former and I have found it to be pretty good. I like the way it distills the key ideas of seduction without becoming a sleazy pickup artist manual itself. The major downside is that it has this habit of inserting small promos for other books/audio/courses by the authors related to particular topics. For example, it will discuss how to approach and start a conversation with a woman and then inform the reader that the authors wrote this excellent book on the topic called How to Talk to Women, with CD's of real dialogue situations!

Also, I'm not sure if it's just me but the example "characters" they use to explain the difference between effective and ineffective seducers seem somewhat contrived. It just gives me this vibe that these are people who have been made up just to prove the point that the book wants to prove.

I just picked up Pure by Linda Kay Klein from the library. I haven't read it yet, but it about the Evangelical Christian world's purity movement.

The Mormon church has a pamphlet it gives to kids 12 and up called "For the Strength of Youth" which talks about their dress/appearance guidelines (big on modesty. The r/exmormon community likes to joke about porn shoulders because bare shoulders are extremely scandalous.), dating, and sexual purity. They are interviewed regularly by their bishop (basically pastor of their congregation) to gauge their worthiness and they are asked if they keep those standards. I wish I knew of some books about the subject, how this affects them, but there has been TONS of chatter online esp recently. This American Life did an episode about it. Oh and Elna Baker, who is on that episode has a book called "The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance." It's been years since I've read it, so I don't know that it would apply, but she talks on This American Life about how she still feels huge amounts of guilt anytime she has sex.

OK so it's not because you pass shit tests that you're automatically "alpha". "Alpha" is the collection of sexually attractive traits: good looks, social & personal dominance, high status, pre-selection, etc. When a woman manages to get with a man she finds sexually attractive and get him to commit to her, she slowly turn him into a beta. A process called betaization. Why? Because she also need to fulfill the other side of her strategy, which is getting a dependable and resourceful man to give her always more stuff. So she needs her alpha to become her beta. Once you get into a committed relationship, she's actively trying to turn you into someone that she needs although it is someone who is, unbeknownst to her, unattractive. That's why TRP tells you to shack up as late as possible in a LTR, not to get married, to maintain active dread, to pass shit tests, to be ready to walk away, etc. It's work for you to fight her instinctive attempts at making a beta out of you and to ensure you stay enough alpha to remain sexually attractive to her. It's especially important as familiarity brings contempt anyway, and that women are naturally attracted to the emotions brought about by mystery and unpredictability. Aka, strange dick is alluring just because it's strange.

You can read more about betaization in that awesome book: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Female-Psychology-Man-ebook/dp/B00RR6RNO6

That's a talk by Matt Hussey, author of Get the Guy: Learn Secrets of the Male Mind to Find the Man You Want and the Love You Deserve.

He's a columnist for Cosmo, and is listed as a "dating expert" for the Today show. In short, he's a handsome face who writes dating advice books for women who read traditional "women's magazines" and watch daytime television. The audience at his talks is a self-selecting group of women looking for the secrets that will make a man fall in love.

This Book

This book changed my life. Before I read this book, I had never had a healthy relationship. It changed my entire approach to dating. Now I am in a 100% healthy and loving relationship, I have never been happier, and I am able to make the girl I am with happier than I have ever made anyone.

Also, if I can give you some advice. If you aren’t good at talking to women, it is a learned skill. You have to put yourself out there. Just start talking to girls, guys, anyone! Start a conversation, keep it going, try and make them smile, compliment them. It gets easier. You will embarrass yourself, feel awkward, be laughed at by others and this will last not just for a day, but for months, a year, or maybe longer until one day you are a very social person, not awkward at all, and people genuinely love to talk and be around you. Being that kind of person opens up many more possibilities on your dating options. If you don’t have a problem with that, disregard that entire last paragraph and read the book!

Her book, The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance: A Memoir, is a great read. I'd highly recommend it if you enjoyed this piece.

My fav

No More Mr. Nice Guy https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004C438CW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_nCRIBb1TKJEZT

The Natural: How to Effortlessly Attract the Women You Want https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062089803/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_kDRIBbSN7X16R

http://www.thetaoofbadass.com

These three books changed me 180 degrees.

> Thanks for your book on attraction, Dr. Givens!

I assume this one is the one you're speaking about? Looks interesting.

Elna is great. Her book, The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance, is really funny.

I read your post but I only have a few minutes before my next meeting so that's why the quick book mention...

Sounds like you might have issues with boundaries. There is a big difference between giving in a loving relationship and being overly adaptive in an unhealthy way.

You might consider Boundaries in Dating.

You're supposed to hear the subtext, and it doesn't hurt to call her out that if she wants you to take her car in, she should just ask.

However, your life will be easier if you listen for the message within the message. She just wants you to take care of her so she's phrasing her questions in a way that you will do so.

This book: "Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man " explains this.

https://www.amazon.ca/Practical-Female-Psychology-Man-ebook/dp/B00RR6RNO6

Matt Hussey wrote a book called "Get the guy", which is aimed at single women, but I think it has a lot of important messages about independence, self-worth, and confidence that could have some relevance to your situation. Hussey also has a blog with a "keep the guy" section that might be more applicable.

Hi!! I HIGHLY recommend The Surrendered Single. The author, Laura Doyle, is hugely popular in this sub. She gives incredibly insightful and actionable advice for single, RP ladies. This book changed my life and I can't recommend it enough to single RPWs looking for their captains.

http://www.amazon.com/Pickup-Artist-New-Improved-Seduction/dp/0345518195

This. This is what you need. I got to pick this book to read, analyze, and relate communication and psychology theries about relationships for a class last semester. I view myself as a guy with average confidence/ability to meet/pickup girls, but after reading this book, I got a hell of a lot better at it. BUY THIS BOOK it will help you develop your game and reduce stressing about meeting women.

Or, get drunk, go to party, mack on hoes.

good luck

Find things you're interested in (Books? Theater? Music? Whatever floats your boat) and look for guys in those circles (book clubs, intimate concert venues, etc.) - there will be Christian men among them. But if you put Christian at the top of your list, probably only church and some Christian dating site will work. I'd suggest you read (or listen to) Henry Cloud's How To Get A Date Worth Keeping.

If you are unsure about boundaries I would totally recommend the Boundaries book. I am reading the Boundaries in Marriage and find it to be so so helpful!! I grew up in a home that basically didn’t have boundaries so the book it a really good education on what you need to do for yourself in a relationship and basically teaching what boundaries are, and why you need them.

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control/dp/0310351804/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=boundaries&qid=1563234439&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Or the one for dating

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Dating-Healthy-Choices-Relationships/dp/0310200342/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?keywords=boundaries&qid=1563234482&s=gateway&sr=8-5

So something like this book for pick up art?

And this is the Mystery Method book for anyone interested.

You need to stop looking at it from her angle. Of course she’s going to have more dates than you. That’s just how things are but while you rarely get matches she has to sift through hundreds of people before she finds someone that’s she thinks is cool enough to go out with.

She’s going to have more physical intimacy with her other partners. I think that if you give it time you’re going to have regular partners that you hookup with.

Being a straight male things are different. If you’re really serious about non-monogamy check out: Playing Fair: A Guide to Non-monogamy for Men Into Women by Pepper Mint

This book made a huge difference for me. Confidence, man. It's all you need.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Succeed-Women-Revised-Updated/dp/0735204357

> I think sometimes he doesn't know how much his words sting.

No, he doesn't. And if I know a thing or two from my own experiences as well as general human behavior, his feelings died/were dying at least 1-2 months ago, if not earlier, and he just hid it all that time (which is what the person with the waning feelings always does—so it's not just him), for the sake of tradition/comfort/familiarity/desire to avoid conflict.

It looks like he did this too long and now it just burst at a terrible time. But also, a year is just a number. If a year was 337 days, you would have reached that arbitrary "goal" already. So it's not a big deal to not "reach" a number. I mean, heck, that's already longer than mine was!

> He says things like "we probably won't know each other in 10 years" and stuff like that, not knowing how much it hurts and stings me.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaat's a super-red flag. That's atrocious, even. If your SO is saying things that even a platonic friend wouldn't say, I'd high-tail it outta there immediately, or at least bluntly say "wut" to his face and crucify the issue on the spot. In my opinion, relationships teach you to just be blunt about everything. As Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend of the fabulous book Boundaries in Dating insist: "Nip it in the bud." Nail down problems right away as they appear before they grow into more menacing clouds later.

> He makes me laugh, he gives me a safe space whenever I'm sad, he's just fun to be around and makes me feel so good about myself.

That is great stuff. The problem is that he has to feel the same about himself. And if they don't, sometimes people don't always talk or express it or they downright lie/sugarcoat to make the other person feel better. That's why, ever since my breakup, for life, I will always silently yet relentlessly probe other people's personalities to try to anticipate anything that they're not saying. I could probably invest more analysis time into body gestures too, but people are just too different that I think words are king in this regard. But yeah, never ignore flags/signs, never try to force things... occasionally it works but way more often than not, it doesn't. Very sorry about your troubles. You can get through this!

I gained some good insight by reading this book

Sometimes, it's all the little things you don't think about that can hold you back.

Here are some books I suggest.

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Guy-Learn-Secrets-Deserve/dp/0062241753/

https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Move-Play-Game-ebook/dp/B007ZFPIFK

They are both great!

I can't tell what you're getting worked up over. Author is a "speaker" and a "writer". The years of publicizing of his departure from Christianity was part of the runup to his next book.

Organic publicity is never as effective as a focused blitz and social media campaigns. This is why someone would publicly air what the rest of us would consider rather personal (faith, religion, crumbling relationships, divorce) on Instagram instead of quietly moving to the next stage in our careers.

He's kicking up his own dust to attract attention. And despite disagreeing with his own message and admitting that it "harms" people, he doesn't disagree quite enough to pull it from Amazon

I haven't finished this book yet, but so far, it looks really good:

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Guy-Learn-Secrets-Deserve/dp/0062241753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474257235&sr=8-1&keywords=get+the+guy

Give it a try.

Edit: Also, I shot you a PM

Here's a book that's taught me almost everything I know on how to find an awesome relationships. After I read this book I went on a few dozen dates with lots of different girls and finally settled on just one recently. http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-Date-Worth-Keeping/dp/0310262658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411624745&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+find+a+date+worth+keeping

I guarantee you still have things you've yet to talk about!

http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Foreplay-Questions-Lovers-Be/dp/0897932773

My soon-to-be wife (more 12 days) and I spent many months discussing stuff from this book.

We also found a lot to talk about after meeting the weekly meetings with a foccus facilitator.

There's always discussing the news or picking up a shared hobby or even discussing memes from reddit!

A lot of people consciously/subconsciously want an excuse to exploit other people, and the easiest way is often to think of them as objects not people.

For sex:

For power:

For conquest:

For meaning:

For varying personal reasons:

I am not super worked up. Just annoyed that you would automatically put an unsubstantiated claim onto him coming out about his loss of faith, and his apologies to the LGBTQ/people who were harmed by the message in his book. He came out and stated that he no longer agrees with his past writing and that's all that should matter.

>Organic publicity is never as effective as a focused blitz and social media campaigns. This is why someone would publicly air what the rest of us would consider rather personal (faith, religion, crumbling relationships, divorce) on Instagram instead of quietly moving to the next stage in our careers.

Why even bring this up in the first place? I don't know what you are trying to state with this?

>He's kicking up his own dust to attract attention.

Again. This is a random unsubstantiated claim. There is no good reason to state this, nor any claim that can't be affirmed for that matter.

>And despite disagreeing with his own message and admitting that it "harms" people, he doesn't disagree quite enough to pull it from Amazon

Just because he wants to pull it from shelves doesn't mean the publishers do.

A questions I have.

- Do you genuinely believe the claim you are making? and if so, what makes the claim actually credible?

- Even if he was coming out to promote his other talks/publications, does that take away from his message? It wouldn't change the fact that he lost his faith, correct?

The Rules

Basically a how-to guide for playing hard to get. It's filled with such gems as "Always wear lipstick, even when you're jogging" "Never ever call him first or return phone calls." It's really good advice if you want to marry a complete stranger. (My mother actually gave me a copy when I was in high school. It took me years to unlearn.)

I think there might be some books out there by women orbiting the manosphere, but I don't know any. The Surrendered Wife is a good book to read, and she also has The Surrendered Single.

I'd start here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/9ex1v7/lift_faggot_lift/

Then all this

https://www.amazon.ca/Manosphere-New-Hope-Masculinity-ebook/dp/B00D74DQ8E

https://www.amazon.ca/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature-ebook/dp/B006O4227U/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1483461928&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=mat+ridley+red+queen

https://www.amazon.ca/Practical-Female-Psychology-Man-ebook/dp/B00RR6RNO6

http://www.returnofkings.com/misc/The-Solomon-Group.pdf

If anyone can find where yareally ended up, would be appreciated

http://www.djbible.classicalgasemissions.com/antidumpsmachine.pdf

https://www.amazon.ca/Warriors-soldiers-soul-Terrence-Popp-ebook/dp/B009SQHZIM

https://www.amazon.com/Day-Bang-Casually-Girls-During/dp/1463765045/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0Y5D0CFXP2QZ9NE47NG5

When I started dating the guy I eventually married, his mom got him this book.

Just this week, she called to say that she was planning on renting out the top floor of her house, and wondered if we would like to live there.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ron Louis and David Copeland.

This is the one: How to Succeed with Women.

Read the book. Then read the followup book, Boy Meets Girl. Both are by Joshua Harris. Both give sound advice, once you understand the advice. Then you will understand where this mother is coming from, and useful dialog will result.

You should not go to a main event until you're ready. Focus on reading the sidebar, lifting, and MAPing. My wife used to ask me to do stuff like that all the time - recommended reading: "practical female psychology." That book discusses the phases of control in the betaization process, and one of the phases is basically having you at her beck and call with endless meaningless tasks.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00RR6RNO6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481604097&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=practical+female+psychology&dpPl=1&dpID=31x3q3Nk8sL&ref=plSrch

Here is an interesting book for you all to consider.

Allow me to quote one of the user reviews:
> "The Rules", for those fortunate enough to have avoided the book until now, is an instruction manual telling how women can/should trick alpha males into marriage through withdrawal and manipulation.

Check this one out. I think it might be interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Fair-Nonmonogamy-Thorntree-Fundamentals/dp/1944934383

Try reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which is similar advice aimed at the high school/college-aged crowd.

You might like this book:

Designer Relationships

YES. No shade against being each others' firsts, but we did it because of religious guilt. This is just one of the many ways I regret being brainwashed by my childhood fundie baptist church.

https://www.amazon.com/Kissed-Dating-Goodbye-Joshua-Harris/dp/1590521358 was very popular in my circle. You can find a lot of blog entries about people who have been profoundly hurt by it.

We married young because that's what everyone else was doing to escape. Escape we did, and now no one taught us how to be anything other than an unhealthy codependent Christian couple, so we're figuring out what we want to reclaim from our wasted youth and what we want to mourn and move past while learning how to have a healthy relationship from scratch. Therapy helps.

Our marriage is slowly opening now (it's something both of us want), but obv polyamory has way more rules and communication attached. I hate rules but respect my partner's need for security. Once in a moment of childishness I complained to a mutual friend about it being similar to closing on a house and said I was waiting for the preapproval paperwork to get processed before I was able to do anything, as opposed to having sex within hours of meeting I could have done when I was single (and have had opportunities to do even now at 35yo, but had to turn down).

My partner is a very cautious/risk averse person and I am more of a "trust my intuition and jump" kind of person, which makes partner feel hella uneasy. This mindset has done wonders for my career and pretty much every other part of my life, so we'll see... We're slowly meeting in the middle.

We might be thinking of different uses of the word. "Courting" used to mean basically the same thing that "dating" does now.

"Courtship" that you find in the modern era was popularized by the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye, and is mostly found in very religious circles. What I described above is only one way in which its invasive, overly structured, and practically designed to make it feel uncomfortable or even wrong to break off a relationship if it isn't working. There's a huge emphasis on never courting someone you aren't thinking about marrying and so once you start Courting anyone, there's an assumption in the social circle that you will marry them.

Sorry. I just really, really hate Courtship. It's done a number on a lot of people's heads. Some of them were close friends of mine. It's driven people away from their faith. I'm lucky mine was preserved. I could've easily gone the same way with how hard people around me were banging this gong. I hate it so much. It's just hurtful and backwards.

She sounds what I call Low Self-Esteem "Good girl" archetype (in contrast with Low Self-Esteem "Bad girl" archetype), after having read the book Practical Female Psychology
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Female-Psychology-For-Man-ebook/dp/B00RR6RNO6

Have a look at these:
http://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/fearful-avoidant/
http://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-anxious-preoccupied/

And browse through some of Sepean's submmited posts, you may want to start here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/3ukgo4/the_real_mrp_and_you/

I pretty much replied the same way in this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/40mpja/recurring_pattern_that_concerns_me/

so you may want to read that.

This post made me think of this book which was getting a bit of publicity in the past few years.

The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance: A Memoir

To some people, it is.

And the female equivalent.

This book helped my husband

They sell those. This one was all the rage back in evangelical Christian school.

Archives for the links in comments:

• By B-VOLLEYBALL-READY (amazon.com): http://archive.fo/IVn32
  
• By odiddo (amazon.com): http://archive.fo/RRMKr
  
• By Origami84 (rooshv.com): http://archive.fo/bqsJK
  
• By Tuxheia (amazon.com): http://archive.fo/aYeX1
  
• By horseyhorseyhorsey (amazon.co.uk): http://archive.fo/v6swY
  
  ----
  I am Mnemosyne 2.1, Actually, it's about ethics in archiving. ^^^^/r/botsrights ^^^^Contribute ^^^^message ^^^^me ^^^^suggestions ^^^^at ^^^^any ^^^^time ^^^^Opt ^^^^out ^^^^of ^^^^tracking ^^^^by ^^^^messaging ^^^^me ^^^^"Opt ^^^^Out" ^^^^at ^^^^any ^^^^time

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Dating-Healthy-Choices-Relationships-ebook/dp/B000SEHPZG/ref=pd_sim_351_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000SEHPZG&pd_rd_r=799a9863-cd81-11e8-9a8b-017d633f01ef&pd_rd_w=hIDdL&pd_rd_wg=WqAgw&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=18bb0b78-4200-49b9-ac91-f141d61a1780&pf_rd_r=4JQNYKMP6GDN07NJ01JX&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=4JQNYKMP6GDN07NJ01JX


Check this sample too.

Joshua Harris

Fundamentals of Female Dynamics

Cloud and Townsend, Boundaries in Dating.

http://www.amazon.com/Get-Guy-Learn-Secrets-Deserve/dp/0062241753

Some reading on the subject by the people he's talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Game-Penetrating-Secret-Society-Artists/dp/0060554738

http://www.amazon.com/Pickup-Artist-New-Improved-Seduction/dp/0345518195/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269168459&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Method-Beautiful-Women-Into/dp/0312360118/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269168619&sr=1-1

Read up.

I think that this attitude is the product of the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye written by Joshua Harris. It gained a lot of traction among Christians in the late 1990s and spawned a competing book called I Gave Dating a Chance. Harris doesn't actually think that dating is wrong, but he advocates a different attitude towards dating. Much of what he says is semantics. He advocates going back to courting instead of dating, but his definition of courting resembles what many people would call dating. In the end, he does make some good points about society's attitude towards dating, but he doesn't make a very good argument for getting rid of it completely. I haven't read it yet, but he apparently wrote a sequel called Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship after he got married.

> The exact line I heard was "I don't think I would be able to accept my children if they told me they were anything except for straight"

That is infuriating. INFURIATING. Right now, tonight, there are thousands of infertile couples that will go to bed weeping, wondering why they can't have children. Your father deserves that. And here he takes the gift they would do anything for... and this is how he reacts. Unacceptable.

He doesn't deserve your honesty. He's already said that. I think you should consider hard whether it's worth coming out to them.

> Things have been becoming tense recently, with my parents wondering why I haven't had a girlfriend by this time

Get a copy of I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Tell him you're reading it and it really rings true to you. He'll be so proud.

> but then the church would also say that dating is wrong, so NO ONE dated. at all. how are Christians today supposed to find a spouse without dating?

At the church I mentioned, they all just *Kissed Dating Goodbye book link. You basically only hang out with your prospective suitor in the company of the your family, never unchaperoned, sort of like when Michael Corleone goes to Italy, minus the physical contact. Then you sort of make a group decision. The church I mentioned basically adopted the book as part of the Apocrypha and punished those who refused to follow it.